4 minutes ago, Sk3tch said:

I've seen enough people make mistakes modifying dice when it comes to anything more complex than Roll / Reroll Blanks / Convert focus. Your friend should really get the habit of checking with their opponent before the game. However pointless it seems to you, some people follow and process information very differently.

I think 90% of fly casual is just not complaining about everything like having to follow the rules a bit more strictly than your used to, or the fact your opponent has a hard counter to your squad. Or how terrible your dice have been all day.

Sure, but this works both ways.

43 minutes ago, Sk3tch said:

I've seen enough people make mistakes modifying dice when it comes to anything more complex than Roll / Reroll Blanks / Convert focus. Your friend should really get the habit of checking with their opponent before the game. However pointless it seems to you, some people follow and process information very differently.

I do roll LWF separately as a matter of course. It helps me remember when I do and don't get it better than just mentally badging it as 'agility 3 with some rules'.

to me it's about:

• Be polite and friendly.
• Congratulate your opponent when they do well and commiserate when things go badly.
• Work through rules and trigger effects one at a time so it's clear what's going on.
• Make sure at the start of the game your opponent knows what your ships can do. You're under no obligation to remind them during the planning phase of a critical turn, but at the beginning of the game make sure they understand. Just saying "36-point-so-and-so" is not good enough because they may take a false assumption of what's in your squad.
• Don't be smug when you do something clever.
• Don't demand or expect freebies - if you forgot a trigger or opportunity, that's your fault. The phrase "do you mind" is fine, but only if you're prepared to accept the answer 'no'.
• By comparison, don't try and trip the opponent up by being over-nit-picky. Yes, technically moving 4 academy pilots and then focusing all of them up is wrong, but if you plan to call them out on it, do so as soon as you realise. Letting them do it one turn and then not the turn the shooting starts is just deliberately being a tool, and if they've announced they'll 'move up and focus' with those ships or words to that effect, that's not the same as if they'd moved on to rolling attack dice.
• Play as well as you can. Don't give up because you took casualties - if it's clear you've lost and are just killing time because you have (for example) a single 2 dice attack ship versus C-3PO/R2-D2 Norra Wexley and you physically cannot hurt the ship, fair enough, but "I lost 1 of my 3 aces in the first pass and now I'm outnumbered" is not a reason to rage-quit.

To me, fly casual describes a certain “set of operational parameters”, as Mynock-Dee calls it: what self-imposed rules do you enforce for yourself and try to encourage in others?

Mine are to never ask for leniency but always give it. Whenever out of reflex I start with: “Oh I forgot, I could have turned that blank into a hit”, I immediately follow it with “which I’m just saying out loud so I won’t forget next time.” Because I don’t want to put my opponent into the situation where he has to decide whether he wants to let me get away with what is basically cheating – I missed my opportunity and that’s it.

But in the other direction I completely allow them to 'cheat', and I remind them of obvious stuff like using Autothrusters or using A score to settle for 1 focus instead of spending the token. Example from the weekend: On a table next to me, a newbie spent his evade token instead of using Autothrusters. This is definitely something I would never let happen. I would (and did as I played the same guy, too) explain why one should be used over the other.

My reasoning is that I know how bad it is to lose because you didn’t bring your best, and to win because of a stupid, very apparent mistake.

The obvious next question is where I draw the line for not helping, and I think there is plenty of decisions where I’m curious and that I see as more open. Which ship to shoot? Which maneuver to choose?

But not using Autothrusters is in a different category – nobody would ever refuse to use it unless for a very good reason. Nobody would skip his action unless for a good reason (e.g. Palob close by). I don’t want to win for those mistakes.

So as a TL;DR: “Fly casual” is trying to make the game fun for both – don’t bring your opponent into a bad situation, but also offer them an out if he got himself into one. Trying to take the moral high ground, basically.

7 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Mine are to never ask for leniency but always give it. Whenever out of reflex I start with: “Oh I forgot, I could have turned that blank into a hit”, I immediately follow it with “which I’m just saying out loud so I won’t forget last time.” Because I don’t want to put my opponent into the situation where he has to decide whether he wants to let me get away with what is basically cheating – I missed my opportunity and that’s it.

I try to do this. Well I do do exactly that when I forget a thing.

On another note; It strikes me how well the 'Fly casual' mantra can be codified as X-Wing Etiquette, but then it wouldn't be so casual and we'd all argue about wording of the rules.

17 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

To me, fly casual describes a certain “set of operational parameters”, as Mynock-Dee calls it: what self-imposed rules do you enforce for yourself and try to encourage in others?

Part of my approach to any game, and it's not necessarily to do with fly casual, but more to do with making easier decisions during a game if something awkward comes up, I really try to be impartial, I mean if I forget something, I'll say it as to remind myself but even when some generous opponent is like 'go ahead do the thing it's cool', my first thought is would I let someone else off the same mistake? and that of course boils down to is it an obvious thing like forgetting Autothrusters, or something like start of the game round and you forgot to call the action or put down the free evade from IG88-C after a boost. Or (As I once did) forgot to deploy a ship, in a 2 ship squad... I know, unbelievable. The opponent let me deploy quickly, we were moving in round 1, I deployed and offered him a chance to move his ships back and set different maneuvers. We had a good game.

Actually I've learned a lot during X Wing, about gaming etiquette. It being my first tabletop/social competitive game I used to be a sore loser, a smug winner, pleading with opponents to let me do a missed trigger (or an incorrectly set dial). But then the X Wing community guided me in the right direction, I quickly realized that learning to be a better player meant more than winning more games. And these are good lessons to take into whatever game I pick up next.

One specific thing I had to pick myself up on was 'banter' Now I can be quite anxious and shy, but once I get to know people I can get 'Aggressively banterous'. Usually I'll have a laugh with my local group (because they know me). Then suddenly being told point point blank by a stranger that they didn't appreciate it... Well better reign that back in then. I got better.

9 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

I keep hearing this term on podcasts and stuff...what does it mean?

Does "fly casual" have something to do with acceptable list choices in a casual setting? Or is it just about being chill when it comes to agreements on bumps, range, little mistakes, throwing dice all over the board, friendly reminders, not complaining about dice, etc?

Depends on the context really, but in general it refers to two areas.

Either it is the attitude of gameplay this would be counter to the win at all costs (WAAC) mindset that arises in many miniatures games communities. Basically this would be its a game, treat it as a game. If you opponent inadvertently bumps a ship its not the end of the world, that kinda stuff.

Otherwise, it is the attitude of how to play. The idea that there is no "correct" way to play x-wing or to not follow the meta. That kinda stuff.

Overall, when anyone is talking about flying casual the idea is to take the game less serious and try to enjoy it more. It keeps it as a game, and makes it much more inviting for new players. The fly casual mentality that has been openly supported by FFG is a big reason the game grew as much and as quickly as it did.

Fly Casual is about being the sort of opponent you want to fly against:

1) be friendly and polite
2) play your best
3) win by playing the game, not by trickery, etc.

I don't think you need to let things slide or accept sloppy play to fit this - the game has rules and the rules should be followed and both players should be working to make sure that's happening. To me that means calling out the timing windows as they occur ("Start of Combat"), talking through what I'm doing, confirming how many dice we both will roll before we do, USING CRIT MARKERS, etc. When there is an obvious experience discrepancy, I prompt the other player "what's your action?", "did you have any Start of Combat Phase triggers?", etc. since there is no point clubbing baby seals. At the end of the match you want your opponent to think "I'd enjoy playing against this person again", regardless of who won. The goal is to keep the community growing and that only happens when people are having positive experiences when they play.

8 hours ago, Hexdot said:

Better to loose 95-99 than to win 100-15.

This is the problem with the Fly Casual concept... People keep wanting to put qualifications on it that make no sense, or quite often are an excuse for sloppy play, and in some cases actually intended as a way to score a win.

Alway having fun is a good goal, but it is not better to lose 95-99 then to win 100-15. I've had games where I simply either out flew, or out build someone so completely that they didn't stand a chance. It wasn't that the person was actually bad at the game or anything, it was just that there was a serious mismatch in lists or wild luck or something.

I've had games where I picked a list at random or just threw together that day or one that had a ship in it I hadn't played for a while... And had it turn out to be the perfect counter to what the other guy was flying.

If you can't walk away from a 100-15 loss with a smile on your face, then it may be that you're the one with the attitude problem not me. Granted if someone brings in a list that can do well at worlds to the 'newbie night' game and trounces everyone then they have a problem. But just because you win by a huge margin doesn't mean you did something wrong or weren't flying casual, and it is absolutely not worse in anyway.

Sure close games are fun, and getting trounced can be frustrating, but they aren't always that way and neither one is has to be more enjoyable the the other.

I think the best way to describe "flying casual" is with examples. These are all things I've actually said.

"I don't see G1-A interceptors or non-TLT rebel Y-Wings on the table enough. How about you fly some Rebel Y-Wings without TLT vs. my three G1-A Interceptors?"

"This four TIE Bomber list is exactly what the Empire would fly!"

"I feel like four Rookie Pilots are more thematic with Proton Torpedoes. I don't need Integrated Astromechs!"

"Does that take you off the board? Let's pretend you did the 1-turn instead..."

"Do you mind if we use 12 asteroids instead? I feel like that'll be more fun to fly this Lambda Shuttle through."

"Hey, can we use my GR-75 transport as an obstacle?"

"Would you guys be interested in running a collaborative campaign, with me as the GM, that combined X-Wing with Imperial Assault?"

"It's fun, but if I'm going to run a campaign, I usually don't play Heroes of the Aturi Cluster. The rules are too simple."

"Yeah, I know 100 points on one Ghost with a docked Phantom is too many, but I feel like it's more thematic this way."

"No Carnor Jax. Too meta."

"Ok, Wes Jansen is broken. Nerf T-65s!"

3 hours ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

What is this.. I can't tell how genuine this thread is..

Git gud?

Yeah, kinda think Git Gud is diametrically opposed.

For me, Fly Casual is to let go of the outcome of the game. Good play, accident forgiveness, and good sportsmanship all joining together to allow 60 minutes of immersive Star Wars fun. Even when you lose.

9 hours ago, Azrapse said:

Fly thematic squads or just fun squads you want to try. Not necessarily the most optimal ones.

Han and Luke with R2D2 on Luke, C3PO and Chewbacca with Han.

Or Luke, Wedge and Biggs versus Vader and some TIE Fighters.

Or an assortment of scum ships representing some pirates, or some Black Sun criminal gang, etc.

You know, "X-wing for fun". Not "Optimized X-wing for winning".

If you are copying some netlist or some build from Metawing, that is not Fly Casual.

But what if you are flying say Dengar and Nym because you like the ships and characters?

There is a fictitious divide between what's meta and what's fun. Must someone be just thinking about winning when considering playing a Jumpmaster? Or can there be a sense of enjoyment from simply playing with a ship you like? I've flown Parattanni and variants at all kinds of events and causal nights, not just because I wanted to win, but because I love some of the ships involved and want to fly them.

19 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

I think the best way to describe "flying casual" is with examples. These are all things I've actually said.

[...¨]

But those are all examples for non-competitive play. That means you are implying that "fly casual" is not possible for competitive play, which I strongly disagree with.

4 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

But those are all examples for non-competitive play. That means you are implying that "fly casual" is not possible for competitive play, which I strongly disagree with.

These were all during "competitive" play:

24 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

"This four TIE Bomber list is exactly what the Empire would fly!"

"I feel like four Rookie Pilots are more thematic with Proton Torpedoes. I don't need Integrated Astromechs!"

"Does that take you off the board? Let's pretend you did the 1-turn instead..."

"Yeah, I know 100 points on one Ghost with a docked Phantom is too many, but I feel like it's more thematic this way."

Needless to say, I've never won a tournament. Or placed in the top four. The only time I placed in the top 8 was because there were only seven players!

The important "fly casual" thing that I do during tournaments is never get angry when I lose, and if I win, I always like to point out all the things my opponent did right, and point out how dice luck altered the game. It's a game. A fun game, but still a game. By taking winning and losing too seriously, I think people are missing out on the fact that all of this is an excellent escape from the stress of day-to-day life, and by giving themselves a heart attack over a game, they're completely missing the point.

9 hours ago, Icelom said:

Disagree 100% Fly casual has nothing to do with what lists you fly and everything to do with attitude.

Yeah just smile as your NPE Scum list rips apart your opponent's thematic fun list.

12 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

Yeah just smile as your NPE Scum list rips apart your opponent's thematic fun list.

Now you are missing the important part:
You play your NPE meta list, and if you land on an asteroid you say "Oops, well, let's pretend I didn't. This is a casual tournament." and proceed to rip apart your opponent's thematic fun list.

Fly casual and casual play are not the same

26 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

Needless to say, I've never won a tournament. Or placed in the top four. The only time I placed in the top 8 was because there were only seven players!

So... not competitive play.

Competitive is not the same as tournament.

15 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

Now you are missing the important part:
You play your NPE meta list, and if you land on an asteroid you say "Oops, well, let's pretend I didn't. This is a casual tournament." and proceed to rip apart your opponent's thematic fun list.

Again, you are making assumptions about people who are using a meta list because it has ships and upgrades they genuinely like. Why should someone be ostracized because they are flying what they want to fly, with no malice towards they're fellow players? Isn't that the basis of casual play?

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

Fly casual and casual play are not the same

So... not competitive play.

Competitive is not the same as tournament.

Oh, alright. I wasn't sure what you meant there. Thanks for the clarification.

Yeah, I've also flown the meta lists, if someone else was flying them and wanted a good matchup to test a new idea. I've flown Howlswarms vs. Corran/Dash, triple Jumps vs. Old Fennaroo, Psycho Tycho vs. Fat Han, etc.

In those kind of games, the same rules still apply, such as trying to give your opponent the benefit of the doubt, allowing changing of maneuvers in order to avoid dumb mistakes changing the game, being courteous, not getting angry, and not getting full of yourself and explaining condescendingly why you won.

The other really important thing is that unless it's a tournament, where you have to use the same list, don't play a purposely powerful list against something that's obviously for fun. So while I've flown triple Jumps before, I wouldn't just decide to fly triple Jumps against all the fun lists at a casual night.

5 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Again, you are making assumptions about people who are using a meta list because it has ships and upgrades they genuinely like. Why should someone be ostracized because they are flying what they want to fly, with no malice towards they're fellow players? Isn't that the basis of casual play?

I agree with you that there probably is at least one person who actually likes Dengar and Jumpmasters outside of this game. I don't know who they are, but they must be out there! I think the point is that if it's a casual game, don't load up Dengar with the ideal meta upgrades, but instead give him what you like, what you think is fun, what is thematic. Put IG-88D crew on there and fly them alongside another IG-88. Fly Dengar/Boba instead of Dengar/Nym. Fly Fenn Rau with three other Protectorate Starfighters instead of Manaroo or Dengar. It's one thing to like a pilot who is actually good in this game, it's another to pair that pilot with a whole bunch of completely unthematic choices in order to win.

3 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Again, you are making assumptions about people who are using a meta list because it has ships and upgrades they genuinely like. Why should someone be ostracized because they are flying what they want to fly, with no malice towards they're fellow players? Isn't that the basis of casual play?

It's an unfortunate fact that some ships and upgrades in the game are utterly broken overpowered.
A person that casually happens to prefer those broken ships and upgrades is in their total right to do it, but it's not hard to understand that other players will be suspicious about what the definition of "fun" is for that player.
If "fun" means to crush their opponents with broken ships and upgrades, they can hide behind the "Fly causal" moniker as much as they want; the other players won't buy it. And that person will ostracize themselves.

It's like saying... "Let's have a family game of paintball on Sunday morning. Bring your kids and grannies. It will be for fun. No pro attitudes, just causal."

Then, while everyone is there with their puny paintball markers, one guy comes with a paintball submachinegun and a set of paintball grenades, and lays paint traps on the playing fields.
"I happen to like playing like this. *bam bam bam* Don't run, let's play casual *bam bam bam*"

To me, flying casual is playing with the focus on having fun first. If you happen to like a netlist, and so does your opposition, then you can still be "flying casual" with the most optimized lists possible. If you don't like it, you fly with what you DO like.

Additionally, casual xwing may be a different format than standard play. Maybe you're flying a mission from the core set, maybe you're playing an epic game, maybe you're doing something crazy like HotAC. For the most part, there isn't much of a meta to copy for these so different formats can shake up what you fly.

3 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

It's an unfortunate fact that some ships and upgrades in the game are utterly broken overpowered.
A person that casually happens to prefer those broken ships and upgrades is in their total right to do it, but it's not hard to understand that other players will be suspicious about what the definition of "fun" is for that player.
If "fun" means to crush their opponents with broken ships and upgrades, they can hide behind the "Fly causal" moniker as much as they want; the other players won't buy it. And that person will ostracize themselves.

It's like saying... "Let's have a family game of paintball on Sunday morning. Bring your kids and grannies. It will be for fun. No pro attitudes, just causal."

Then, while everyone is there with their puny paintball markers, one guy comes with a paintball submachinegun and a set of paintball grenades, and lays paint traps on the playing fields.
"I happen to like playing like this. *bam bam bam* Don't run, let's play casual *bam bam bam*"

And that's why I agree that "Fly Casual" is about attitude, not the list. I had an airsoft game similar to the paintball game you described. While the majority of the field had spring weapons, one person came with an electric automatic. What happened? The automatic user kept it on single. And a guy with a spring shot gun ruled the day because he was best on the field.

Even in casual play, allowing people to take forgotten actions and the like is a generous gift, not a required act. I have never, ever seen someone allow someone else to just ignore an obstacle because it was a casual game. Living with the mistake of a poorly thought out maneuver is part of the core of the game.

So if someone is trying to get off the hook for something by citing "Fly Casual", then they are not flying causal. They are manipulating the situation to their advantage using outside of game means.

But just because people like that exist doesn't mean a label should be slapped on some one who wants to use one of their favorite Bounty Hunters in a list. If someone can't muster enough good will to not assume (or at least suppress) that of ever person who plays Dengar, then I don't think they are flying casual either.

5 hours ago, Effenhoog said:

Flying Casual has nothing to do with playing the meta or netlisting or whatever nonsense complaints people want to complain about. It's is all about your attitude and conduct during a game, you could essentially call it good sportsmanship. Just be respectful and don't nitpick every tiny little thing, especially in the non-tournament environment. Fly casual =/= casual play, but you should always fly casual in either competitive or casual play.

Addressing the points in this thread about actual casual play though, you should always establish expectations with your opponent in advance if possible. If two players show up and one wants to practice his dengar/nym for tournaments and the other just wants to run 4 X-wings for fun, then neither player will probably get what they want out of the game.

Just note that if you intend to play with the arbitrary list building restrictions that casual play generally demands, be aware that the responsibility lies with you to communicate this. The guy with dengar/nym came ready to play anything, it's the casual player who is looking to play with special rules outside the game itself. Also note that just because something is called or thought of as a "casual night" it doesn't automatically mean there are expectations on what you can play, it just means it's not a tournament and unless there are some expectations established within the local community you should not assume anything. Again, communication and establishing expectations are important, don't make assumptions.

edit: also note that Fly Casual is not a stick to beat people into letting you get away with breaking rules. People will probably have slight variations in their concept of flying casual, so again it is important to communicate and not just assume that everyone will be okay with the same things that you are. They're probably not a jerk just for wanting to play by the correct rules, they just want to establish a fair baseline for competition.

Technically... he is right.

Though, I'm still gonna give you stink eye if you show up to casual night with Fenn + 2 torp masters.

26 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

Oh, alright. I wasn't sure what you meant there. Thanks for the clarification.

Yeah, I've also flown the meta lists, if someone else was flying them and wanted a good matchup to test a new idea. I've flown Howlswarms vs. Corran/Dash, triple Jumps vs. Old Fennaroo, Psycho Tycho vs. Fat Han, etc.

In those kind of games, the same rules still apply, such as trying to give your opponent the benefit of the doubt, allowing changing of maneuvers in order to avoid dumb mistakes changing the game, being courteous, not getting angry, and not getting full of yourself and explaining condescendingly why you won.

The other really important thing is that unless it's a tournament, where you have to use the same list, don't play a purposely powerful list against something that's obviously for fun. So while I've flown triple Jumps before, I wouldn't just decide to fly triple Jumps against all the fun lists at a casual night.

I agree with you that there probably is at least one person who actually likes Dengar and Jumpmasters outside of this game. I don't know who they are, but they must be out there! I think the point is that if it's a casual game, don't load up Dengar with the ideal meta upgrades, but instead give him what you like, what you think is fun, what is thematic. Put IG-88D crew on there and fly them alongside another IG-88. Fly Dengar/Boba instead of Dengar/Nym. Fly Fenn Rau with three other Protectorate Starfighters instead of Manaroo or Dengar. It's one thing to like a pilot who is actually good in this game, it's another to pair that pilot with a whole bunch of completely unthematic choices in order to win.

Again, that's not allowing people who genuinely like something like Dengar and Nym together. Let's take the old monster that was Dengaroo as an example. That was a serious meta beast back in the day, but it also had a nostalgia element with Dengar and Manaroo being husband and wife in the lore. And if you are a fan of that couple, are you a monster for wanting to see them together in the board?

Another example is Fel. Fel was feared and hated with his build of PTL, title, Stealth Device, and AT. There are people who flew that Fel because they loved how it played. The "by the seat of your pants" style of ace-ing he brought with him. Should people who like Fel be forced to use different upgrades because one build is considered too meta?

It just means don't be a jerk.

12 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

I keep hearing this term on podcasts and stuff...what does it mean?

Does "fly casual" have something to do with acceptable list choices in a casual setting? Or is it just about being chill when it comes to agreements on bumps, range, little mistakes, throwing dice all over the board, friendly reminders, not complaining about dice, etc?

Keep your distance, but don't look like you're keeping your distance.

33 minutes ago, faceyfood said:

It just means don't be a jerk.

As the internets explode with vitriol over exactly what that means. . .