9 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

It is far too late for that.

#flotillasOP

#bombersOP

#RieekansOP

#RebelsOP

#DemosOP

#ImpsOP

#ISDsOP

#AckbarOP

#ClassicBenOP

... did I miss any?

To be fair the official nerf bat has hit some of these, so even FFG agreed that some were OP.

I love that the current OPness is an ISD that launches waves of boarding troopers at ships nearby. This is why Armada is superior to X-wing, because the ships you see in the movies are actually the ones that you see across the table from you.

9 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

It is far too late for that.

#flotillasOP

#bombersOP

#RieekansOP

#RebelsOP

#DemosOP

#ImpsOP

#ISDsOP

#AckbarOP

#ClassicBenOP

... did I miss any?

#SatoOp I remember that one fondly...

#SloaneOp is more recent, but clearly didn't pan out

#RlbOp we got a version EVEN STRONGER than originally believed to be op

FFG doesn't bring out the nerf bat because something looks strong I theory.

They don't even swing it if is strong in real play.

The bat only comes out of it's strong to the detriment of other options and/or if there are no counter plays or risk involved.

12 minutes ago, D503 said:

I love that the current OPness is an ISD that launches waves of boarding troopers at ships nearby. This is why Armada is superior to X-wing, because the ships you see in the movies are actually the ones that you see across the table from you.

Then why can't I have Y-wings with Ion Torpedos that reduces the enemy ship's speed to 0, drop all their shields to 0 and discard all their command orders and tokens??

2 minutes ago, xerpo said:

Then why can't I have Y-wings with proton torpedos that reduces the enemy ship's speed to 0, drop all their shields to 0 and discard all their command orders?

But you can...just go crit-fishing...all of that is eminently possible!

2 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

But you can...just go crit-fishing...all of that is eminently possible!

To fish for crits you have to go through the hull, In the movies an Y-wing squadron drops a couple of torpedos and the ships remains intact, but defenseless.

I mean the mechanic on ABT cannot be more simple, why cant we have simple things too?It may seem OP but it actually has counters as well. If you dont want your ship to be hit by the Ion torpedos Y-wing, dont get into distance 1 of him!!!! LOL

31 minutes ago, xerpo said:

To fish for crits you have to go through the hull, In the movies an Y-wing squadron drops a couple of torpedos and the ships remains intact, but defenseless.

I mean the mechanic on ABT cannot be more simple, why cant we have simple things too?It may seem OP but it actually has counters as well. If you dont want your ship to be hit by the Ion torpedos Y-wing, dont get into distance 1 of him!!!! LOL

Are you describing Norra here?

42 minutes ago, xerpo said:

why cant we have simple things too?

Yavaris and 3 b-wings is quite complex.

Ackbar is so elaborated to figure out how he works!

51 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

#SatoOp I remember that one fondly...

#SloaneOp is more recent, but clearly didn't pan out

#RlbOp we got a version EVEN STRONGER than originally believed to be op

FFG doesn't bring out the nerf bat because something looks strong I theory.

They don't even swing it if is strong in real play.

The bat only comes out of it's strong to the detriment of other options and/or if there are no counter plays or risk involved.

These 3 were overhyped from the previews. It was only the fear that they will be OP. But they never were. But yes, they do fit in the list

Ohh, how do i remember the discussions about how RLB should work. And it was always said, no matter how, they are bad. Now the do work in the best way, and they are not really used (as predicted....)

18 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Are you describing Norra here?

No idea what he really means...but Norra IS the Ion Bombs. Paired with Gold Squad and...yeah, totally doable. Or at least as well as can be hoped for in a capital scale game.

In regards to the OP on what you should take to counter BT Avneger, I have found some solutions that can be applied to every fleet and will fit into most fleet builds quite nicely.

To start, there was a discussion on BT Avenger a few weeks ago where @Ardaedhel told me I need to build a fleet with all the big archetypes in mind. So when you start adding things, you should have a plan to deal with Ackbar80, Demo, Yavaris, Rieekan Aces, MSU, Admo, etc., and now we need to at BT Avenger to that list. It's a very hard juggling act that I have yet to figure out. I like to play Glads so it makes this even harder because I need to get in close range to Avenger, but I also need to have a plan to deal with squads, or to deal with Ackbar (which is my biggest struggle right now).

The fleet I was honing for NoVa, which I did not attend for a variety of reasons, was the following:

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 399/400

Commander: Moff Jerjerrod

Assault Objective: Most Wanted
Defense Objective: Hyperspace Assault
Navigation Objective: Solar Corona

[ flagship ] Victory II-Class Star Destroyer (85 points)
- Moff Jerjerrod ( 23 points)
- Minister Tua ( 2 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Disposable Capacitors ( 3 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 137 total ship cost

Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56 points)
- Demolisher ( 10 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 75 total ship cost

Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56 points)
- Insidious ( 3 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 68 total ship cost

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
- External Racks ( 3 points)
= 47 total ship cost

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
- External Racks ( 3 points)
= 47 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 25 total ship cost

This list is designed to go first and second which means BT Avneger has a tough choice to make. Let me go first with any of my 5 ships that can be in position to deal a ton of damage, or let me get more dice or deployment advantage against them. This is my first counter to BT Avenger. My second advantage is how I deploy. Glads go out wide to corral my opponent into the front arc of the Vic, and the Raiders are deployed slightly behind the Vic (about range 1-2) and off to the side to give me some space to maneuver. The Vic goes down across from Avenger and begs for a 1v1. A 100% Vic can survive a BT Avenger shot so long as it is not max damage. 11 hull/shields is quite a lot to damage to deal, and any follow up shots have to deal with defense tokens, 6 shields, and ECM. It should be able to survive. Once Avenger attacks, it will have to ram the Vic or move off to the side into the front arc of a Raider, which is going to be throwing 9 dice (4+2+1+2) on a double arc. A Raider is literally the best ship to counter Avenger because it just sits and waits.

That's the plan with this list and it works very well. Even if the Raiders and Vic get killed, I still have 2 Glads on the table. This list has taken me months to get to to work correctly, so I also have an easier solution to BT Avenger.

If Avenger wants to get close, you should play long range. Like I said in the beginning, playing long range works into a lot of fleet builds. I was able to beat Avenger with a Sato Paragon list. I didn't kill Avenger, but I did win. Squads are likely lacking on an Avenger list, unless it's Sloane in which case you want squads, so Sato is a natural go-to. I get to turn my red dice into black dice AND run away.

The idea here is to place Hammerheads in between Avenger and Paragon, but place them in a way to run across the front of Avenger so you can turn into it later, or run away quickly. HH are also great with squads if you take Relay, as well as having an Ordnance and Weapons Team slot. The cheap cost is a great trade into Avenger as well. I'd suggest anyone having trouble with Avenger to try and play long range and put HH or Raiders between your flag ship and Avenger, which is similar to what Ard posted earlier in the thread with the Lib and flots.

Plan to play second. Deploy to kite. Use cheap ships to trip up Avenger and run them in a pack. You can't expect a single HH or Raider to save you. You will need at least 3 to dish out enough damage to discourage your opponent from running into them. Avenger is still an ISD which needs to be respected. Or you bait your opponent into a trap with a ship that can survive a shot and set up other attacks from our ships. If you are able to do this, you can dictate how your opponent will activate which means you are in control of the game. If you force BT Avenger to not go first, it means you are able to kill their other ships or pull damaged ships out of the fight.

After all of that, you will still need to deal with the rest of your opponents fleet, which you should treat as any other ISD fleet.

I want to stress that this is extremely difficult. It's one thing to lose a small/medium ship to an ISD, but when it can kill a large ship with ease, it will but very frightening to want to engage. A miscalculation could cost you the tournament, but not engaging can do the same thing.

Build a fleet that has a plan to deal with Avenger, but also has a plan to deal with the other big name threats. My list I posted crumples to Ackbar80s every single time and my plan is to disengage and harass the smaller ships. I rarely score over a 6-5. It's not a very good plan to deal with it, but it's a trade off to win big against Avenger.

You need to trade your ships to take down Avenger. You need to focus all your attacks on it. Get practice against Avenger. Understand it's arcs and how quickly it can close on you. Don't rely on going first as your strategy. Most importantly, you need to stick to your plan when things go wrong. If everything was going right but you can't roll the damage to kill it, your plan is still sound. RNG just killed you.

I still hate BT Avenger. It's ******* dumb. But at least I can beat it now.

1 minute ago, Undeadguy said:

In regards to the OP on what you should take to counter BT Avneger, I have found some solutions that can be applied to every fleet and will fit into most fleet builds quite nicely.

To start, there was a discussion on BT Avenger a few weeks ago where @Ardaedhel told me I need to build a fleet with all the big archetypes in mind. So when you start adding things, you should have a plan to deal with Ackbar80, Demo, Yavaris, Rieekan Aces, MSU, Admo, etc., and now we need to at BT Avenger to that list. It's a very hard juggling act that I have yet to figure out. I like to play Glads so it makes this even harder because I need to get in close range to Avenger, but I also need to have a plan to deal with squads, or to deal with Ackbar (which is my biggest struggle right now).

The fleet I was honing for NoVa, which I did not attend for a variety of reasons, was the following:

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 399/400

Commander: Moff Jerjerrod

Assault Objective: Most Wanted
Defense Objective: Hyperspace Assault
Navigation Objective: Solar Corona

[ flagship ] Victory II-Class Star Destroyer (85 points)
- Moff Jerjerrod ( 23 points)
- Minister Tua ( 2 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Disposable Capacitors ( 3 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 137 total ship cost

Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56 points)
- Demolisher ( 10 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 75 total ship cost

Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56 points)
- Insidious ( 3 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 68 total ship cost

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
- External Racks ( 3 points)
= 47 total ship cost

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
- External Racks ( 3 points)
= 47 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 25 total ship cost

This list is designed to go first and second which means BT Avneger has a tough choice to make. Let me go first with any of my 5 ships that can be in position to deal a ton of damage, or let me get more dice or deployment advantage against them. This is my first counter to BT Avenger. My second advantage is how I deploy. Glads go out wide to corral my opponent into the front arc of the Vic, and the Raiders are deployed slightly behind the Vic (about range 1-2) and off to the side to give me some space to maneuver. The Vic goes down across from Avenger and begs for a 1v1. A 100% Vic can survive a BT Avenger shot so long as it is not max damage. 11 hull/shields is quite a lot to damage to deal, and any follow up shots have to deal with defense tokens, 6 shields, and ECM. It should be able to survive. Once Avenger attacks, it will have to ram the Vic or move off to the side into the front arc of a Raider, which is going to be throwing 9 dice (4+2+1+2) on a double arc. A Raider is literally the best ship to counter Avenger because it just sits and waits.

That's the plan with this list and it works very well. Even if the Raiders and Vic get killed, I still have 2 Glads on the table. This list has taken me months to get to to work correctly, so I also have an easier solution to BT Avenger.

If Avenger wants to get close, you should play long range. Like I said in the beginning, playing long range works into a lot of fleet builds. I was able to beat Avenger with a Sato Paragon list. I didn't kill Avenger, but I did win. Squads are likely lacking on an Avenger list, unless it's Sloane in which case you want squads, so Sato is a natural go-to. I get to turn my red dice into black dice AND run away.

The idea here is to place Hammerheads in between Avenger and Paragon, but place them in a way to run across the front of Avenger so you can turn into it later, or run away quickly. HH are also great with squads if you take Relay, as well as having an Ordnance and Weapons Team slot. The cheap cost is a great trade into Avenger as well. I'd suggest anyone having trouble with Avenger to try and play long range and put HH or Raiders between your flag ship and Avenger, which is similar to what Ard posted earlier in the thread with the Lib and flots.

Plan to play second. Deploy to kite. Use cheap ships to trip up Avenger and run them in a pack. You can't expect a single HH or Raider to save you. You will need at least 3 to dish out enough damage to discourage your opponent from running into them. Avenger is still an ISD which needs to be respected. Or you bait your opponent into a trap with a ship that can survive a shot and set up other attacks from our ships. If you are able to do this, you can dictate how your opponent will activate which means you are in control of the game. If you force BT Avenger to not go first, it means you are able to kill their other ships or pull damaged ships out of the fight.

After all of that, you will still need to deal with the rest of your opponents fleet, which you should treat as any other ISD fleet.

I want to stress that this is extremely difficult. It's one thing to lose a small/medium ship to an ISD, but when it can kill a large ship with ease, it will but very frightening to want to engage. A miscalculation could cost you the tournament, but not engaging can do the same thing.

Build a fleet that has a plan to deal with Avenger, but also has a plan to deal with the other big name threats. My list I posted crumples to Ackbar80s every single time and my plan is to disengage and harass the smaller ships. I rarely score over a 6-5. It's not a very good plan to deal with it, but it's a trade off to win big against Avenger.

You need to trade your ships to take down Avenger. You need to focus all your attacks on it. Get practice against Avenger. Understand it's arcs and how quickly it can close on you. Don't rely on going first as your strategy. Most importantly, you need to stick to your plan when things go wrong. If everything was going right but you can't roll the damage to kill it, your plan is still sound. RNG just killed you.

I still hate BT Avenger. It's ******* dumb. But at least I can beat it now.

You say "all the major archetypes", but this seems to be exceedingly week vs squadrons. Or is this primarily a BTA counter?

2 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

You say "all the major archetypes", but this seems to be exceedingly week vs squadrons. Or is this primarily a BTA counter?

It started as a BTA counter where I was running Ciena/Valen with 5 ships. But I found the Vic needs ECM to survive Ackbar and Admo. And then Sloane rips my 2 squads so I dropped them, a Comms Net and my 20 point bid for 2 Raiders and found it worked much better. 2 Raiders+ER and Demo is quite the squadron deterrent. Same with GT.

But the hidden counter to squads is the Vic. I use the Vic to kill flots. 6 dice with LS at long will kill flots the majority of the time, and I can kill 2. Flots tend to be the squadron pushers so I effectively neuter my opponents list at the top of round 3. 6 dice is also effective against Nebs and Quasars. I get points and activation advantage.

I have also developed a play style with Demo where it leads into squads, takes a ton of damage, and then leaves. Sometimes without getting a good anti-ship attack, but it buys me time or splits my opponents fleet to give chase. If Demo doesn't hit 1 hull, I'm not playing it right hahaha

This list is deceivingly long range oriented. Demo can close in from long range to use black dice. DC+GT+LS is long range. And Insidious gets it's dice at medium. So I'm really playing a close range list at medium-long, compared to squads that need to get in at 1.

Bomber heavy lists are really played much. I have yet to play Rieekan Aces with this list so I don't know how it would work. I'm not scared of Sloane with this list. Bring those 3 hull squads. I'll gladly attack them.

Rogues do give me trouble. But I also repair on turns 4-6 on all my ships with damage so that can be hard to kill.

44 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Are you describing Norra here?

Does norra drop every shield on crit, slow speed to zero, and discard all dials and command tokens?

7 minutes ago, xerpo said:

Does norra drop every shield on crit, slow speed to zero, and discard all dials and command tokens?

And you expect all of that from 1 Y-Wing squadron? What kind of point cost were you thinking for such an over powered squad?

Just now, Megatronrex said:

And you expect all of that from 1 Y-Wing squadron? What kind of point cost were you thinking for such an over powered squad?

9 sounds good. Then Yavaris.

10 minutes ago, xerpo said:

Does norra drop every shield on crit, slow speed to zero, and discard all dials and command tokens?

She most certainly does not. It would be a very bad game if she did.

6 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

9 sounds good. Then Yavaris.

Don't forget Adar

31 minutes ago, Megatronrex said:

And you expect all of that from 1 Y-Wing squadron? What kind of point cost were you thinking for such an over powered squad?

Well thats what you see in the movies right?

30 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

She most certainly does not. It would be a very bad game if she did.

Why? It would have counters.

2 hours ago, D503 said:

I love that the current OPness is an ISD that launches waves of boarding troopers at ships nearby. This is why Armada is superior to X-wing, because the ships you see in the movies are actually the ones that you see across the table from you.

This, dont forget the root of the discussion.

18 minutes ago, xerpo said:

Well thats what you see in the movies right?

I didn't ask if it was done on screen I asked how many points it should cost. If we're supposed to get what we've seen on screen then where's my Vader that can solo an entire Rebel fleet. He could cost 336 points and I'd still take him in every list.

1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:

I have also developed a play style with Demo where it leads into squads, takes a ton of damage, and then leaves. Sometimes without getting a good anti-ship attack, but it buys me time or splits my opponents fleet to give chase. If Demo doesn't hit 1 hull, I'm not playing it right hahaha

Just wanted to highlight this. This is a very good description of how to handle squadrons with both the GSD and MC30.

2 minutes ago, Megatronrex said:

I didn't ask if it was done on screen I asked how many points it should cost. If we're supposed to get what we've seen on screen then where's my Vader that can solo an entire Rebel fleet. He could cost 356 points and I'd still take him in every list.

In what movie does that happen ? better question, under what circumstances? Rebel fleet exhausted and jumping to hyperspace. I think the scene you are describing has more to do with timming than an actual engagement. He does not take an entire Rebel fleet by the way, just the remains.

In the other hand, those Y-wings loaded with ion torpedoes manage to pass through the screen of ties in a suicidal run and drop the load in an engagement with a station and two Imperial star destroyers full of ties in a not-too-unbalanced situation.

Back to your question, I dont know. Provided that you can fit boarding troopers on Avenger for 3 points to make it OP ... id say maybe we could see these ion torpedos Y-wings as an unique squadron for 15-16 points. Maybe with a reduced speed to 2 due to their extra load.

7 minutes ago, xerpo said:

In what movie does that happen ? better question, under what circumstances? Rebel fleet exhausted and jumping to hyperspace. I think the scene you are describing has more to do with timming than an actual engagement. He does not take an entire Rebel fleet by the way, just the remains.

In the other hand, those Y-wings loaded with ion torpedoes manage to pass through the screen of ties in a suicidal run and drop the load in an engagement with a station and two Imperial star destroyers full of ties in a not-too-unbalanced situation.

Back to your question, I dont know. Provided that you can fit boarding troopers on Avenger for 3 points to make it OP ... id say maybe we could see these ion torpedos Y-wings as an unique squadron for 15-16 points. Maybe with a reduced speed to 2 due to their extra load.

It doesn't happen in a movie, it happens in an episode of Rebels. And he does take on the whole fleet. The Y-Wings you're asking for however were not acting alone.

15-16 points you gotta be kidding me. Yeah BT is only 3 but requires an initial investment of at least 110. What you want is the most OP game breaking squad in the game for around a tenth of the cost of the current hot "OP" ship.

12 minutes ago, Megatronrex said:

It doesn't happen in a movie, it happens in an episode of Rebels. And he does take on the whole fleet. The Y-Wings you're asking for however were not acting alone.

15-16 points you gotta be kidding me. Yeah BT is only 3 but requires an initial investment of at least 110. What you want is the most OP game breaking squad in the game for around a tenth of the cost of the current hot "OP" ship.

He forgot to add that is a discardable Y-wing... right?

3 hours ago, D503 said:

I love that the current OPness is an ISD that launches waves of boarding troopers at ships nearby. This is why Armada is superior to X-wing, because the ships you see in the movies are actually the ones that you see across the table from you.

Xerpo,

Look at that quote more closely. Now think about this. Do you regularly see Y-wings on the table across from you? If yes, then the statement was true. Note that he didn't state that every cinematic effect that we see in the movies can be exactly replicated by the same ship in the game. It was a statement that ships (and squadrons) that you see in the movies are effective enough to see plenty of time on the table in this game.