6 hours ago, Alzer said:

I've been starting to see BTA quite a lot and my Interdoctor scenario list really does not enjoy having its medium ships getting one-activationed off the table.

I mean..that specific combo is a one-trick pony, that is attached to an ISD for a grand total of 8 points. The rest of the list remains quite flexible and dangerous while that occurs.

The ISD still a good ship, but the specific combo is particularly powerful when used to take out a major enemy ship - at short range. That's why I consider it a good addition to the game, but not overpowered in any way. Also, as this thread shows, there are many counter-plays, which to me suggests that in time the BTA scare will blow over.

51 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

The ISD still a good ship, but the specific combo is particularly powerful when used to take out a major enemy ship - at short range. That's why I consider it a good addition to the game, but not overpowered in any way. Also, as this thread shows, there are many counter-plays, which to me suggests that in time the BTA scare will blow over.

Yep, judging by the UK Nationals, it already has - very little, if any, Sloane and whilst plenty of Avenger most were ISD 2s with Gunnery Teams.

3 hours ago, Tokra said:

There is as well another card/way to counter the BTA ISD.
A Gozanti with Tua and ECM can, if nothing else is interfering, block an ISD for two turns. This is enough time to either kill the ISD or get out of his way. So its 9 points (in upgrades) to counter the 8 points for the BTA combo.

It would be in the flotilla blocker category. Super-blocker subcategory

4 hours ago, Tokra said:

There is as well another card/way to counter the BTA ISD.
A Gozanti with Tua and ECM can, if nothing else is interfering, block an ISD for two turns. This is enough time to either kill the ISD or get out of his way. So its 9 points (in upgrades) to counter the 8 points for the BTA combo.

There's this thing called Suppressor that I like to bring along...

13 minutes ago, Truthiness said:

There's this thing called Suppressor that I like to bring along...

Then Avenger is not first activation.

14 minutes ago, Truthiness said:

There's this thing called Suppressor that I like to bring along...

This one is only working when the TuaECM is moving into the Suppressor (something you try to avoid, and something you can easy avoid).
And now you are bringing more and more upgrades in for a special setup. I use Sloane with the Avenger ISD. To make sure these Flotilla are an easy target.

But the question were about counter for the BTA combo. And not against a combo of 5+ cards and all their permutations in wild combinations .

19 minutes ago, Truthiness said:

There's this thing called Suppressor that I like to bring along...

Some ppl bring Tua ECM Slicer Suppressor.

This one I like to blow up by Sloaning that scatter token, then Avengering it dead.

3 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Then Avenger is not first activation.

Not with Supressor. This one trigger if another ship (an enemy ship) is ending its movement in the range of the Gozanti (distance 1-3).
You can set up this one a bit earlier. But as the opponent i would avoid to end the movement within range, or to make sure it does not matter if the token get exhausted (last activation).

Eighter way, Supressor is easier to counter as the BTA is.

Just now, Green Knight said:

Some ppl bring Tua ECM Slicer Suppressor.

This one I like to blow up by Sloaning that scatter token, then Avengering it dead.

I guess he mean to bring the Supporessor with the BTA ISD. To make sure the Flotilla in range lose the scatter token. But as i said. It starts to become a combination of cards around the BTA. And not something you mentioned earlier, to just add the BT and Avenger to a existing setup to improve a normal ISD.

I'm just saying Suppressor tends to hang around next to Avenger, so I don't see a Tua/ECM Gonzo as a worthwhile blocker. Yes, it's starting to talk counter to the counter, but it's also an extremely common combination. We can't talk about things in a vacuum.

5 minutes ago, Truthiness said:

I'm just saying Suppressor tends to hang around next to Avenger, so I don't see a Tua/ECM Gonzo as a worthwhile blocker. Yes, it's starting to talk counter to the counter, but it's also an extremely common combination. We can't talk about things in a vacuum.

But if Tua is moving after the Avenger it does not matter if there is a Suppressor. The exhausted token does not matter anymore, because the ISD already did his attack.

Supressor is way easier to counter or to just ignore its effect.
But we are ending in a theoretical combat with move and counter move. IF the BTA ISD has more ships and can move after the Tua and IF the suppressor is in range and still alive and IF the weather is good this day, ....
This lead to a theoretical endless discussion.

The simple question is: What is a counter for a BTA ISD to fly in and shoot down your big ships. Not: what is the counter of the counter to counter the counter in case you get countered . And Tua+ECM is a counter, because you can park this Gozanti in the way of the ISD, and it does not have to fear to get killed (by the ISD alone).

30 minutes ago, Tokra said:

Not with Supressor. This one trigger if another ship (an enemy ship) is ending its movement in the range of the Gozanti (distance 1-3).
You can set up this one a bit earlier. But as the opponent i would avoid to end the movement within range, or to make sure it does not matter if the token get exhausted (last activation).

Eighter way, Supressor is easier to counter as the BTA is.

I know how Supressor works and that is the reason cause Avenger would not be the first activation. The first activation would be mine!

If Supressor tries to exhaust the blocker then the blocker is moving. The only reason to move it is to work as a blocker if I need it then my ship is in danger. If I can move my blocker to block before Avenger shoot, why the **** I am not moving the ship in danger instead?

There could be reasons depending on a very specific situation. But at the end Supressor won't counter the ECM-blocker unless it also self-counter Avenger 1st shooter. Win-win situation.

I ran an ISD-II BTAvenger at UK Nationals this weekend and went 3-2, so it is possible to defeat. Mainly through careful flying and making sure it never gets a good front shot into something big at close range. I think they only made a difference in 1 of my games, and there more as a threat, forcing my opponent to make a bad decision to stop getting AvengerBT'd.

The first game I lost was against another BTAvenger but theirs had more defensive upgrades; so I chased after their other ships, but that let their ISD get behind mine, while I could never get into close range of anything big of theirs. I don't think either of us got our Boarding Troopers off in a meaningful way.

Second game was against a Rebel Cracken MSU list (a bunch of CR90s, and MC30 and some transports); again they were able to stay out of the front arc at close range, so I ended up using my BTs on a rear arc obstructed shot against a CR90... not really worth the points. I ended up winning 56-54; we both killed two flotillas but theirs had more stuff on.

Third game was against a Mon Karren, Neb-B and some Hammerheads. Here I was really lucky with the Mon Karren getting two front arc, close range shots off at one of my flotillas with 0 accuracies (after re-rolls) - forcing them to decide between staying double-arced by a Demolisher, coming into close front arc of the BTAvenger, or flying away and doing nothing (they chose the third option). My fleet was then able to mop up the Corvettes and Frigate without needing the BTs.

4th was an Ackbar Defiance + CR90s. I screwed up and brought the ISD into long range of Defiance once too often, so it went down, but not before it was able to clean up some of the CR90s (again, not really needing the BTs) - and my Demolisher finished off the third CR90 with its final shot, just winning me the game. Again, BTs not much use.

5th was double MC30s and some transports. Again, the MC30s flew around the ISD; and while I blew up a few transports I made the mistake of trying to chase down a damaged MC30 with my Demolisher, and it didn't end well for me (2nd player).

-----

So, yeah... BTs are a lot of points, but you have to fly it well to get off a good shot. It is most useful as a threat; forcing the opponent to fly in ways they don't want to to stay out of arc. I also had a Suppressor in there, which was useless against the MC30s, but did let me kill off the odd flotilla by exhausting their scatters. I don't think I'll be running BTAvenger in the future; I don't think it is worth not having Gunnery Teams. Slicer Tools did cause problems in general, but with Comms Net flotillas nearby and a Veteran Captain on the ISD, there was never any risk of me not getting the BTs off as needed.

370 on carrier-flotillas, bombers and a little and maneuverable flagship.

That's a counter.

2 hours ago, Tokra said:

But if Tua is moving after the Avenger it does not matter if there is a Suppressor. The exhausted token does not matter anymore, because the ISD already did his attack.

But this means that Avenger wasn't blocked in its movement, so the initial goal was not achieved.

There are multiple ways to deal with BT Avenger (including blocking its flight path with Gozanti), however ECM Tua is just not a cost efficient one.

2 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

370 on carrier-flotillas, bombers and a little and maneuverable flagship.

That's a counter.

A correct counter should assume that its going to be a second player as relying on always outbidding your opponent is not a good strategy most of the time.

1 hour ago, PT106 said:

A correct counter should assume that its going to be a second player as relying on always outbidding your opponent is not a good strategy most of the time.

It was some kind of every option in the same list.

1. You are not first player anymore.

Wait! Are you?

2. I out activate you by 2-3 ships so when you ended your movement next to my sgips they are getting away.

Wait! Aren't they?

3. They have scatter.

Wait! Do you trigger BTs?

4. Without gunnery teams you will get 18-23 points. That's all.

5. Now you hope your screen was enough cause I am go into bomb you to death.

However it was just a quick theoretical exercise. Tokra always remind me his flotillas everywhere fleet.

In my experience, Hondo renders ICBs and Slicers moot as viable counters.

4 minutes ago, Caldias said:

In my experience, Hondo renders ICBs and Slicers moot as viable counters.

Agree.

There is a very wide and ever-expanding range of options to mitigate ICBs and Slicers. They're good for what they are (well, Slicers are at least), but not a reliable way to shut out commands from any one ship that really wants that command. Occasionally it'll work, but most of the time, if a fleet is super reliant on one command, the player has already built in backup ways to get that command anyway in considering flexibility. Command flexibility is valuable in its own right, and pretty much all of the flexibility upgrades (SFO, Leia, Comms Net, Hondo, etc, etc) are incidentally also functional counters to command attacks like Slicers and ICB.

Hello all,

I took an 8 ship list centred around the AvengerBT to Nationals.

I had a 26 pt bid, Vader, Hondo and all the other trimmings you'd expect on an ISD1.

4/4 of my rounds I was easily countered.

The most noticeable counter that i felt the most pain from was going up a Motti ISD2, with blast doors and an interdictor near by with Targetting Scramblers. Before the encounter i managed to chip away at some shields and put 3 hull dmg on. End of the turn i manoeuvred AvengerBT into a double arc. Beginning of the turn my opponent used blast doors to heal the 3 dmg, Start of my turn i boarded the ISD2 and proceeded to do 18 dmg over two attacks after modifications. This was promptly scrambled down to 11.

And it was all downhill from there sadly.

Ugh threads like this kill me. "I can't beat this, it's clearly OP".

It's an ISD, kill it the same way you kill every other ISD(with fire) and move on. I love this game and the community, please don't become like the 40k or WMH communities by becoming disheartened anytime you run into a list that seems difficult for you to deconstruct.

Just now, dominosfleet said:

Ugh threads like this kill me. "I can't beat this, it's clearly OP".

It's an ISD, kill it the same way you kill every other ISD(with fire) and move on. I love this game and the community, please don't become like the 40k or WMH communities by becoming disheartened anytime you run into a list that seems difficult for you to deconstruct.

It is far too late for that.

#flotillasOP

#bombersOP

#RieekansOP

#RebelsOP

#DemosOP

#ImpsOP

#ISDsOP

#AckbarOP

#ClassicBenOP

... did I miss any?

#RhymerOP

And #RelayOP

3 hours ago, dominosfleet said:

Ugh threads like this kill me. "I can't beat this, it's clearly OP".

It's an ISD, kill it the same way you kill every other ISD(with fire) and move on. I love this game and the community, please don't become like the 40k or WMH communities by becoming disheartened anytime you run into a list that seems difficult for you to deconstruct.

It seems they don't kill you enough.

This is being quite helpful I think.

Even the op seemed an honest question rather than a complaint... to me.