1 hour ago, Ginkapo said:

I am somewhat surprised that there is no real critisicm of the article at all. Surely someone has played him enough to have an opinion!

These are the words of @miferr who had to run Sato during an entire Corellian Conflict. He had specific criticisms that totally counter many of your arguments. He was MUCH more eloquent than what I'm about to type, but I'll try regardless.

I believe the conversation at Worlds went somethjing like this:

Cninja: "So Miferr, now that you've played an entire CC with Sato, what do you think about him as a Rebel Commander?"

Miferr:

"Sato Sucks."

Edit: No I take that back, that is exactly what he said.

56 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

It has many moving parts and interactions though, so I don't consider it an easy list to fly. I also consider it susceptible to squad-heavy builds, but that's common for most non-squad heavy lists. And as you proved when we played, it has surprisingly good ability to keep squadrons busy, even kill them.

Did your experience at UK Nationals reinforce your list-building theories? Were you satisfied with the list's performance? Are there ways to evolve this list for future use?

On the moving parts I have to disagree. There WERE moving parts.

Two comms net flotilla giving two squadron tokens turn 1 removes the difficulty in lining up a squadron.

Acknowledging that sometimes it is preferable to commit to winning the squadron fight rather than use Satos effect, lessens the reliance on the moving parts. I went three rounds without using Sato, however his presence was still forcing my opponents to make difficult decisions.

I was very satisfied with the lists performance, though I have to say Toryn was the MVP punching well above her weight game after game. The mc30s whilst threatening were more of a deterrant than a threat delivered, which I found unexpected.

Honestly, I think this list could be evolved in so many different ways. Whilst when all the parts come together it creates a formidible Sato force, each individual part could be utilised in other lists.

For Sato specifically, I hadnt considered the impact of VCXs running objectives rather than contributing to the squad fight as all my practice games were opening salvo. This is an area of weakness imo.

1 hour ago, Ginkapo said:

Mad. You are the seeker.

I am somewhat surprised that there is no real critisicm of the article at all. Surely someone has played him enough to have an opinion!

I didn't play against it but I thinking what I would do with my current fleet.

1. Objective: I would take Opening Salvo but not sure how well it would go for me. Maybe I would choose second player but, again, not sure how well it would be for me.

2. Deployment: you would have advantage. However, JJ allows some hard turns so, maybe, pretend to assault one side of your formation and turning hard to move through the front or, with luck, the other side. Maybe spreading my two hitters (Demo and Avenger). At the end would be hoping JJ and ET make my maneuverability superior.

3. Squadron play: as long as no objective points are committed just defensive until I could make a fast and lethal alpha and fly away from Toryn. Ciena, Rudor, Mithel can deal with Tycho, 1 a-wing and a couple of HWKs or they won't worth the points.

4. Navigation: with activation disadvantage I must fly Avenger to where I hope you will be activation after movement obviously. It is hard but with JJ and a squadron token I could give navigation commands to it. However JJ+Nav Command is harder to predict than your ships I think. Use my flotillas as obstacles to restrict the movement of the mc30s. Demo must hunt Satovation. APT and ramming should help. The hard thing would be how to get him inside your formation. No idea about it until I saw how well I was smashing the mc30 barrier. Anyway I would try to get advantage from opening salvo. Demo double arc would be 3+3 red dice. Avenger would roll 5/6 reds or 4+4 red. Gozantis could shot 2U2R or 1U2R+2U. With opening salvo bonus I could get some benefit from Avenger title at long range.

But as I said. I didn't play against it yet. It looks solid and I thank the post. I saw the list somewhere else and I liked but seemed a bit hard to play. My brother likes Sato and the op could help him to figure it out how to play the list and learn from the experience.

@Ginkapo maybe I skipped it, but what place did you take at Nationals?

Glad to see your making Sato work. I have a tournament soon and I am thinking about running him just because I love Sato. I'll certainly use your experience as a building block for my list.

I would chime in but you think my Sato list is crazy

13 minutes ago, Irishmadcat said:

I would chime in but you think my Sato list is crazy

By all means chime in. I dont think your list is crazy. I think that hammerheads are the biggest abomination in the galaxy. Its a tad different.

Undying. 10th

39 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

By all means chime in. I dont think your list is crazy. I think that hammerheads are the biggest abomination in the galaxy. Its a tad different.

Undying. 10th

I've got a Sato hammerhead idea I'm trying this week, we'll see how it goes? And I like hammerheads!

Nicely done. I think I'lll try and get around to practicing this and seeing what it feels like.

Toryn is undeniably powerful If you can keep her positioning relevant.

I think people have asked already, but where there any changes you'd try? Do you think there is a serious weakness to mass squadrons, or only minimally? Would you for instance have considered dropping some points and adding 2 more squadrons?

1 hour ago, geek19 said:

I've got a Sato hammerhead idea I'm trying this week, we'll see how it goes? And I like hammerheads!

This is my list

http://armadawarlords.hivelabs.solutions/view_list.php?token=129960&key=a5b9eabade65ab21fe3abba4fa023359

2 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

By all means chime in. I dont think your list is crazy. I think that hammerheads are the biggest abomination in the galaxy. Its a tad different.

Undying. 10th

I am kind of on the fence about sato still. Would Yavris be better than salvation considering some of the games you have described? Did the extra damage from that title help as much as you though?

10 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

I am somewhat surprised that there is no real critisicm of the article at all. Surely someone has played him enough to have an opinion!

I like the idea of 2 "naked" MC30s. I'm tempted to run 1 Scout with Sato just to have shots before I get to close. ACM is the better choice in this build because it makes you very anti-large ship.

I don't like Salvation. Seems like a good idea on paper, but Yavaris will get you more bang-for-buck. It also increases your anti-squad capabilities which this list is lacking. I know you like to run a lot of Intel and Tycho just to chase ships, but a strong anti-squad list will be trouble. Tie/D have no issue in bullying your 4 hull squads. Just 6 squads means you are walking a fine line between an effective anti-ship force and using inferior attack dice. I know the MC30s can still dish out some damage, but without the defense upgrades, they are quite fragile. Your squads are much better at fighting Rebels, but the trade off is you are fighting uphill against Evades. That's mostly negated since you focus on close range.

I've come to the same conclusion with Sato, Relay, and flots. They are a strong combo and blow the objective game wide open.

As much as you may hate it, a RS Scout HH do well with the VCXs. Squad 1 for Relay, 2 reds for Sato, and medium AS to RS the VCX. Works well in your deployment strategy too since the HH has a nice front arc angle. Something to consider.

I'd also use MW instead of OS. OS is scary since you have no defense on your ships, and your opponent has first player. Risky combo that I would not take. MW can yield more dice over the course of the game while denying your opponent any dice.

Chewing on this. I think Gink has a really good idea here in hybrid aggro/strategic play, with a squadron-light overall build. It's analogous to the super pickle strategic builds that use the MC80 to create a wall of threat and hull to protect the strategic squadrons while they do their shenanigans, except instead of the shi*ty MC80, he uses a pair of far more threatening and survivable MC30s to create the no-man's-land.

I'm not actually sure Sato is particularly relevant to the success of the build and, indeed, think he's just as much a liability here as he always is. I have some ideas I want to try out using this fleet archetype, but I'll be doing it using admirals that don't suck.

1 hour ago, Irishmadcat said:

This is my list

http://armadawarlords.hivelabs.solutions/view_list.php?token=129960&key=a5b9eabade65ab21fe3abba4fa023359

I have a very similar list in mind myself! Less flotillas, more a Pelta and StM. Have you considered DCaps for the Sato power? I'm trying it the next 2 days, so we'll see what the result is.

1 hour ago, Ardaedhel said:

I'm not actually sure Sato is particularly relevant to the success of the build and, indeed, think he's just as much a liability here as he always is.

I had similar thoughts. I've played Sato and MC-30s and really want it to work. But looking at this list, and what it does, I don't see the real value in Sato.

You know what the hilarious part of this is? I'm going to quote Gink himself for the best way to dismantle this list:

RAM THEM!

3 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

Chewing on this. I think Gink has a really good idea here in hybrid aggro/strategic play, with a squadron-light overall build. It's analogous to the super pickle strategic builds that use the MC80 to create a wall of threat and hull to protect the strategic squadrons while they do their shenanigans, except instead of the shi*ty MC80, he uses a pair of far more threatening and survivable MC30s to create the no-man's-land.

I'm not actually sure Sato is particularly relevant to the success of the build and, indeed, think he's just as much a liability here as he always is. I have some ideas I want to try out using this fleet archetype, but I'll be doing it using admirals that don't suck.

Wait, I missed this earlier. What's wrong with my MC80?!

4 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Wait, I missed this earlier. What's wrong with my MC80?!

He states it is shi*ty.

Then he infers that it is neither threatening nor survivable.

5 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

He states it is shi*ty.

Then he infers that it is neither threatening nor survivable.

Oh it's on now. On like James Bond and Donkey Kong fighting with James Hong in Vietnam at the break of dawn after the song from a gong (this has gone on rather long). All to prove you wrong, @Ardaedhel , you.... You Yuuzhan Vong!

..... I'm not entirely sure HOW it's on now, but vengeance will be mine. Somehow. Soon.

2 hours ago, geek19 said:

@Ardaedhel , you.... You Yuuzhan Vong!

7 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

It also increases your anti-squad capabilities which this list is lacking. I know you like to run a lot of Intel and Tycho just to chase ships, but a strong anti-squad list will be trouble.

Thats just it though. This list is NOT lacking anti squad. If the hwks were Awings would you be questioning it? A hwk has 2 counter just like an Awing. A hwk loses 1 blue anti squad but Toryn is nearby anyway. A hwk has 1 blue anti ship instead of black and again Toryn is nearby. Hwks are not for intel alone, they are competitive in their own right.

In 3 of 5 games I won the squad fight against superior forces including two full Sloane aces lists. In 1 my opponent did not engage strongly, and the final was max ywings which no one beats.

If you take Yavaris instead of Salvation then you get no major antisquad benefit as this list uses flak far more than punchy squads. Yavaris isnt a defensive unit. And youve sacrificed a heavy hitter weakening your ability to drop ships. Salvation killed multiple ships.

I tried Sato with Ywings and Ruthless Strategist. Whilst I agree that RS and ywings are a great combo with expanded hangers hammerheads, they are not for Sato. Squads in a Sato list need longevity, actively hurting your own squads, whilst efficient, shortens their time on the table.

The aim isnt to WIN the squad fight, its to make it LAST till turn 6!

Opening Salvo means the enemy chuck an extra two red dice at range. All my ships have evades and/or scattrs. Its inconsequential. It means my ships can really punch hard at their respective max ranges. An extra 10 black dice including two ACM crits does far more damage to an ISD than most wanted, yet is not useless against an MSU list.

Most wanted is often a terrible objective against lists without large ships. The upside of most wanted is that its low risk, that however is not a good reason to play it.

4 hours ago, Truthiness said:

You know what the hilarious part of this is? I'm going to quote Gink himself for the best way to dismantle this list:

RAM THEM!

You have to go into close range to do that. You can only get there once before death.

2 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

You have to go into close range to do that. You can only get there once before death.

Take an honest look at your old ramstrosity and tell me you would be even remotely concerned with this Sato madness. You'd laugh at those MC30s and their puny 4 hull.

2 hours ago, Truthiness said:

Take an honest look at your old ramstrosity and tell me you would be even remotely concerned with this Sato madness. You'd laugh at those MC30s and their puny 4 hull.

Do you not wonder why I hate hammerheads? They dont die till they have rammed.

But yes CRambo90s are OP and essential

6 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Thats just it though. This list is NOT lacking anti squad. If the hwks were Awings would you be questioning it? A hwk has 2 counter just like an Awing. A hwk loses 1 blue anti squad but Toryn is nearby anyway. A hwk has 1 blue anti ship instead of black and again Toryn is nearby. Hwks are not for intel alone, they are competitive in their own right.

In 3 of 5 games I won the squad fight against superior forces including two full Sloane aces lists. In 1 my opponent did not engage strongly, and the final was max ywings which no one beats.

If you take Yavaris instead of Salvation then you get no major antisquad benefit as this list uses flak far more than punchy squads. Yavaris isnt a defensive unit. And youve sacrificed a heavy hitter weakening your ability to drop ships. Salvation killed multiple ships.

I tried Sato with Ywings and Ruthless Strategist. Whilst I agree that RS and ywings are a great combo with expanded hangers hammerheads, they are not for Sato. Squads in a Sato list need longevity, actively hurting your own squads, whilst efficient, shortens their time on the table.

The aim isnt to WIN the squad fight, its to make it LAST till turn 6!

Opening Salvo means the enemy chuck an extra two red dice at range. All my ships have evades and/or scattrs. Its inconsequential. It means my ships can really punch hard at their respective max ranges. An extra 10 black dice including two ACM crits does far more damage to an ISD than most wanted, yet is not useless against an MSU list.

Most wanted is often a terrible objective against lists without large ships. The upside of most wanted is that its low risk, that however is not a good reason to play it.

I actually think A-Wings are bad at anti-squad. They are annoying for sure but are nothing compared to a Biggs ball. How are you keeping Toryn near the squads if the squads need to be close to the ships? Toryn Counters are good, but I'd focus on her as soon as she is at medium.

Swapping Yavaris for Salvation still gives you the same dice but your dice are weaker. You trade that for better squad attacks which you can do via Relay.

RS should be used on the VCXs, not Y-Wings. I run 1 Scout HH with RS. Nothing else because it's too expensive and I prefer the natural Relay synergy.

I disagree on OS, but that is a play style decision, not a strategic one. I think it is too risky. MW is an excellent choice because so many people play BT Avenger. NoVa had a ton of ISDs. So the current meta, if you can call it that, favors large ships. I'm not sure what you face over in the EU, but MW is a good choice in the US. It will also be a good choice during wave 7 with 2 more large ships dropping.

14 hours ago, geek19 said:

I have a very similar list in mind myself! Less flotillas, more a Pelta and StM. Have you considered DCaps for the Sato power? I'm trying it the next 2 days, so we'll see what the result is.

The D Caps seems a bit overkill for just the one dice. I like the squads load out and its ability to hurt ships. I have foudn the squads needs to carry a lot in this type of list.