Kind of decided that more aliens and robots wouldn't hurt anything. I didn't really want to necro this thread but I posted a new one about it and it seemed a bit like oversharing

On ‎3‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 7:50 AM, Concise Locket said:

It's been my experience that gamers who insist on "mature" themes of gruesome violence and what-have-you are covering up for a lack of creativity and ideas. Shock is easy to do. It's why horror movies that reply on jump scares rather then genuine dread are usually terrible. Most (male) tabletop RPG players, if they start when they're tweens and teens, go through a "I Hump the Hobgolin!" Phase. It's expected that they'll grow out of it.

Rogue One feels like the most "grown-up" Star Wars movie but, thematically-speaking, there's nothing you wouldn't see in a WW2 movie from the 1950s.

It's not unreasonable for a game master or a player to expect a Star Wars game to feel like, y'know, the Star Wars they know from the movies. If you want something else, play Original Traveller Universe or the plethora of other space-based RPGs on the market.

Yeah I don't really understand that impulse when it can be done so much better in another IP. I could see trying it, but not persisting in always having X-rated Star Wars. Psychologically it seems like it's an attempt to normalize erotic and violent themes by putting them in Star Wars. For some people it's a condiment for every meal.

Eh. The McGuffin in the original trilogy is a tool to beat the masses into submission through instant genocide. The prequels have Anakin go on a killing spree twice, one of them being the murder of an entire flock of children, and the morally upstanding notion of growing a slave army in vats so they can be sent to be slaughtered in war. I’d say the violent themes are definitely present throughout Star Wars.

edit: wanted to expand a bit on this. It’s not about the themes. SW, particularly the prequels, has some very mature themes. The prequels are about the descent into madness that turned an innocent kid into a psychopath. They include chattel slavery. They have droids that are clearly self-aware. There’s political deception and treachery. And there’s lots and lots of killing - heck, TFA has patricide. However, the movies (and tv shows) make sure they’re appropriate for 13-14 year olds. They don’t go into the slavery. The violence is only shown on a small scale and isn’t as visceral as it might be in war movies for instance. Sometimes it isn’t shown at all, only implied. There’s comic relief and humour throughout to relieve tension and draw attention away from the horrid bits. In comparison, some of the books are a lot harsher.

On 5/17/2018 at 9:44 PM, nameless ronin said:

Eh. The McGuffin in the original trilogy is a tool to beat the masses into submission through instant genocide. The prequels have Anakin go on a killing spree twice, one of them being the murder of an entire flock of children, and the morally upstanding notion of growing a slave army in vats so they can be sent to be slaughtered in war. I’d say the violent themes are definitely present throughout Star Wars.

edit: wanted to expand a bit on this. It’s not about the themes. SW, particularly the prequels, has some very mature themes. The prequels are about the descent into madness that turned an innocent kid into a psychopath. They include chattel slavery. They have droids that are clearly self-aware. There’s political deception and treachery. And there’s lots and lots of killing - heck, TFA has patricide. However, the movies (and tv shows) make sure they’re appropriate for 13-14 year olds. They don’t go into the slavery. The violence is only shown on a small scale and isn’t as visceral as it might be in war movies for instance. Sometimes it isn’t shown at all, only implied. There’s comic relief and humour throughout to relieve tension and draw attention away from the horrid bits. In comparison, some of the books are a lot harsher.

My use of quotes around "mature" was to indicate facetiousness.

Darth Vader and the 501st executing children and all the other elements of his fall to the dark side are in-line with fairy tales (pre-1940s when Disney started adapting them into cartoons). Also, the kiddie murders are off-screen.

When I was young, family movies often had elements of horror and implied violence. You might not see the sword hitting the neck but you definitely saw the decapitated head rolling across the floor. There were actually shades of grey between "Disney cartoons for children" and "Friday the 13th". The 1990s parent panic erased them but that's the area where Star Wars sat.

Nothing that was presented in the prequels was particularly mature as maturity in story-telling implies sophistication. I was taught about slavery in America starting in early primary school and, for a slave, Anakin had a life most American slaves would have considered heavenly. Anakin wasn't mentally ill. Anakin was immature (be it his fault or the fault of the Jedi), unwilling to sacrifice for the greater good, and he was so afraid for his wife's life that he let his fear dictate his actions, making him the perfect pawn. There's nothing "crazy" in there, he was an irrational child and petulant jerk who became the blunt instrument of a galactic level bully. Every kid who goes to public school knows at least one Anakin.

There's violence in service to a story and to provide engaging action, then there's violence for shock value. One requires a bit of sophistication, one is cheap and easy.

Star Wars is a good v. evil morality tale. Even Edge of the Empire assumes that your character is some variety of "Wild West archetype with a heart of gold/man with a code."

I was recently having a discussion with a friend about the phenomenon of keeping stuff off screen and not using explicit or non-immersive dialogue, and it seems to me that this is a stylistic approach that is designed to make you feel younger when considering the events in the setting. Some people are annoyed by this, and want Star Wars to resemble every dirty-toilet cancer-screening pay your taxes situation of reality, but for me this is not something that adds to the galaxy. There are details that sometimes come to light and if they are horrific or gross one can ask if it is actually a better description or simply a more thorough one.

The other thing I find is that people don't' want to put the effort into it, and want to just use the same mode of speech and reference that they do in their life. I can't be bothered to try and make this feel like Star Wars.

I appreciate an escape, and it seems to me like since I find the Galaxy real-enough as presented in the movies, I just don't see the need to have every bit of mundanely foul detail of our world replicated in Star Wars.

But the desire to feel young, by even such a limited device as this, seems like a very clever way to approach the tone.

**I changed my mind. I really don't want to be involved with this thread**

I guess you can't just delete posts. They should put that functionality into the forum.

I appreciate the fact that you can do any kind of thing you want to do, but this thread is about trying to get as close as possible to the feel of the original three movies in the way that you present:

• Dialogue
• Scene Locations
• NPC's and PCs
• Story Elements

If it makes you feel bad somehow to read a thread like this, then I have to wonder what the problem is. No one is guaranteed or required to like what others do, and there is nothing inherently anti-social about having a disagreement of style. I make it kind of clear what I don't like, and there is no reason I should have to play in the way I don't like simply because there appears to be a norm of doing whatever. You like to play like it's 2018 Earth, then that's great, for you.

This is a discussion about a pen and paper role-paying game.

18 hours ago, Archlyte said:

I appreciate the fact that you can do any kind of thing you want to do, but this thread is about trying to get as close as possible to the feel of the original three movies in the way that you present:

• Dialogue
• Scene Locations
• NPC's and PCs
• Story Elements

If it makes you feel bad somehow to read a thread like this, then I have to wonder what the problem is. No one is guaranteed or required to like what others do, and there is nothing inherently anti-social about having a disagreement of style. I make it kind of clear what I don't like, and there is no reason I should have to play in the way I don't like simply because there appears to be a norm of doing whatever. You like to play like it's 2018 Earth, then that's great, for you.

This is a discussion about a pen and paper role-paying game.

I don't "feel bad", nor do I play Star Wars "like it's 2018 Earth". No one has suggested you " should have to play in the way [you] don't like simply because there appears to be a norm of doing whatever". These types of strawmen that show why this thread is not a useful place to discuss what is an interesting topic.

2 hours ago, TheSapient said:

I don't "feel bad", nor do I play Star Wars "like it's 2018 Earth". No one has suggested you " should have to play in the way [you] don't like simply because there appears to be a norm of doing whatever". These types of strawmen that show why this thread is not a useful place to discuss what is an interesting topic.

My friend posed the question of whether Ii was thinking that the Galaxy simply was not supposed to have things happening in it such as graphic sex and contemporary earth dialogue, or if it is assumed to happen, but is not shown or referenced in dialogue. The second option was my choice because the object as I see it is not to have these things be omitted from the reality, but that the depiction of that reality is filtered to appeal to a certain aesthetic.

5 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

I had no information to go on but was trying to get my thread back in the direction I had hoped it would go. I have no idea how you play, nor do I care for the purpose of this thread which is discussing how to get the feel of the movies as those of us who try for that. Thanks for the counter strawman though, and I guess I can assume that you do something that is indescribably good but not what I am talking about. I guess I can only surmise that you thought about commenting but then thought the topic was somehow unsatisfactory and then felt the need to say that instead of reducing the comment to ellipses or something. But one thing is clear, I should have just ignored your post.

I wrote some general comments on content, remembered what constantly dragged this thread down, decided I didn't want to deal with it, and removed my post.

3 minutes ago, TheSapient said:

I wrote some general comments on content, remembered what constantly dragged this thread down, decided I didn't want to deal with it, and removed my post.

I apologize for my other comment. I am just unhappy that attempts to discuss this result in negativity.

5 hours ago, Archlyte said:

I apologize for my other comment. I am just unhappy that attempts to discuss this result in negativity.

Then perhaps you should stop proceeding from and leading with condescending, judgmental (generally false) conclusions. Such as...

On 5/30/2018 at 4:53 PM, Archlyte said:

Some people are annoyed by this, and want Star Wars to resemble every dirty-toilet cancer-screening pay your taxes situation of reality, but for me this is not something that adds to the galaxy.

So, maybe "some" are "annoyed," but I'd say that most who choose to do insert your so-called "dirty toilet" elements have simply chosen to examine a different means of storytelling within the setting. This is nothing new to the setting, nor is it only fan-/game-exclusive. For example, LFL chose to explore horror within the setting in the Death Troopers novel. And, as always, you are not required to participate in such an examination at your table. By the same token, it is not necessary to continually talk down to those who do choose to.

Or there's...

On 5/30/2018 at 4:53 PM, Archlyte said:

The other thing I find is that people don't' want to put the effort into it, and want to just use the same mode of speech and reference that they do in their life. I can't be bothered to try and make this feel like Star Wars.

And now, those who play in a manner different than your own are lazy. By occasionally using "real world" terminology on the fly (rather than stopping to explain, "OK, when I refer to 'Myzn Kalfar,' that's a Justin Bieber-like pop music star. So, when I say, 'That guy's music is as ear-splitting as Myzn Kalfar,' you know what I mean, right?"), it can allow for the scene to continue flowing, with the rest of the group in on the social contract that such references are being made for that very purpose.

Nah...that's crazy talk. Clearly, they just don't want to put in the effort.

15 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

Then perhaps you should stop proceeding from and leading with condescending, judgmental (generally false) conclusions. Such as...

So, maybe "some" are "annoyed," but I'd say that most who choose to do insert your so-called "dirty toilet" elements have simply chosen to examine a different means of storytelling within the setting. This is nothing new to the setting, nor is it only fan-/game-exclusive. For example, LFL chose to explore horror within the setting in the Death Troopers novel. And, as always, you are not required to participate in such an examination at your table. By the same token, it is not necessary to continually talk down to those who do choose to.

Or there's...

And now, those who play in a manner different than your own are lazy. By occasionally using "real world" terminology on the fly (rather than stopping to explain, "OK, when I refer to 'Myzn Kalfar,' that's a Justin Bieber-like pop music star. So, when I say, 'That guy's music is as ear-splitting as Myzn Kalfar,' you know what I mean, right?"), it can allow for the scene to continue flowing, with the rest of the group in on the social contract that such references are being made for that very purpose.

Nah...that's crazy talk. Clearly, they just don't want to put in the effort.

The thing is that you seem to be saying that there is no such thing as discerning that isn't an attack on non-discerning. So For instance it's like I'm saying I like things that are red and blue is not red, and I give examples as to why blue isn't red. Then I say that in my experience with people who say they want red, they instead use blue because red is too hard, and have told me as much.

But there seems to be no way you can separate this from an overarching condemnation of the regular play standards even though it's in this thread, which is specifically about trying to get a certain feel through the removal of certain things and the adoption of other things. It would seem obvious to me that I feel that it is superior to play in the style of the first three movies, and I reject a lot of canon and other material based on it's contradictory or otherwise unsuitable nature.

I'm speaking mechanically and descriptively and not in an attempt to make converts but to find people who are of similar tastes and discuss those smaller variances.

Maybe you should look at yourself and wonder why it is that you have such a reaction to the mere proposal that there are accurate ways to model the Star Wars setting. If you are worried that your players or kids will see this thread and suddenly feel bad about something then I would say maybe warn them not to read this blasphemous thread and move on.

Maybe just do you and be happy with that instead of trying to knock down someone else. If your ideas are better let them stand on their own or make a thread about how Hawaiian shirts on cyber wookiees are awesome.

Also I'm going to put you on the ignore list now and I suggest you do the same.

Hey can I state again that I am looking to discuss the finer points of trying to meet a standard of fidelity (which can be varying of course) to the type of game some have been describing in this thread successfully here and there? If you are a beer and pretzels gamer then no offense, but this thread isn't about your type of game. In the same way that a Yahtzee thread isn't about Checkers, this thread is not about games with a casual approach to simulation.

1 hour ago, Archlyte said:

The thing is that you seem to be saying that there is no such thing as discerning that isn't an attack on non-discerning. So For instance it's like I'm saying I like things that are red and blue is not red, and I give examples as to why blue isn't red. Then I say that in my experience with people who say they want red, they instead use blue because red is too hard, and have told me as much.

The thing is, I'm saying nothing of the kind. However, I'm not arrogant enough to say that anyone who chooses a different play style than I do is "less discerning." You repeatedly do.

1 hour ago, Archlyte said:

But there seems to be no way you can separate this from an overarching condemnation of the regular play standards even though it's in this thread, which is specifically about trying to get a certain feel through the removal of certain things and the adoption of other things. It would seem obvious to me that I feel that it is superior to play in the style of the first three movies, and I reject a lot of canon and other material based on it's contradictory or otherwise unsuitable nature.

I certainly can separate others' play styles from my own without insulting them, condescending to them, talking down to them, and so on. Even in this quoted portion, you don't say that your play style is preferable to you...you outright label it as "superior."

1 hour ago, Archlyte said:

I'm speaking mechanically and descriptively and not in an attempt to make converts but to find people who are of similar tastes and discuss those smaller variances.

You just don't see the problem, do you? It's not that you have a preferred style of play. It's that it's possible to do what you propose here without intentionally and constantly disparaging those who may, at times, utilize other play styles.

1 hour ago, Archlyte said:

Maybe you should look at yourself and wonder why it is that you have such a reaction to the mere proposal that there are accurate ways to model the Star Wars setting. If you are worried that your players or kids will see this thread and suddenly feel bad about something then I would say maybe warn them not to read this blasphemous thread and move on.

Oh, holy frak. Really? How about you look at yourself and wonder why it is that your reaction to people utilizing other play styles is to condescend and insult? I'm worried about nothing. My entire point is that different people play in different ways, and more power to them.

1 hour ago, Archlyte said:

Maybe just do you and be happy with that instead of trying to knock down someone else.

Says the person who routinely talks down about everyone who doesn't play his way? Who has outright insulted others for not playing his way? Hutt, please.

1 hour ago, Archlyte said:

If your ideas are better let them stand on their own or make a thread about how Hawaiian shirts on cyber wookiees are awesome.

Only one of us has claimed his ideas are inherently better than anyone else's. And it ain't me. (And, of course, you choose to focus on a reference that doesn't provide any sort of context as to how things got to that point. But, naturally...because it's doesn't fall within your view, it must be referenced in a disparaging way.)

1 hour ago, Archlyte said:

Also I'm going to put you on the ignore list now and I suggest you do the same.

Your choice to make. I've never put anyone on an ignore list in my life. I'm not starting now. Unlike some, I'm not afraid of differing views, but I'll call out boorish behavior when I see it...especially when it's repeated after being pointed out many times. Even if you decide to put your fingers in your ears and say, "Can't hear you." I'll still reply. I'll just accept your hiding behind the ignore list as acknowledgement that you see my point, but prefer to continue insulting others instead of treating them with the same respect that you demand for yourself.

51 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

Hey can I state again that I am looking to discuss the finer points of trying to meet a standard of fidelity (which can be varying of course) to the type of game some have been describing in this thread successfully here and there? If you are a beer and pretzels gamer then no offense, but this thread isn't about your type of game. In the same way that a Yahtzee thread isn't about Checkers, this thread is not about games with a casual approach to simulation.

Sure you can. I'd ask if you could do it without condescending to others, but even in your restate here, you couldn't stop yourself.

On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 6:36 PM, Nytwyng said:

Sure you can. I'd ask if you could do it without condescending to others, but even in your restate here, you couldn't stop yourself.

To be honest, Nytwyng, I fear you're wasting your breath.

This guy always seems to make a show of being reasonable but then gets in some pretty cheap shots.

In fact, one of the reasons I'm not around any more is that I feel the quality of discourse has deteriorated. Yes, there are hilarious guys like Desslok, informative guys like 2P51 and lovely people like Absol, but there's more snarling and sniping than there used to be, more personal attacks. On another thread, even Donovan and HappyDaze (two guys I respect) are sniping at one another.

Role-playing is, by its nature, a deeply personal and individual thing. Every player, and certainly every table, gets to decide what flies and what doesn't. We don't need canon police telling us we're having BadWrongFun.

No, folks who want canon and PG13 and the feel of the Saturday Matinee series that inspired the original Star Wars are not wrong. But neither of those who want the harder, modern edge of Blade Runner or Mass Effect sci-fi. Those who want 'Game of Thrones in Space' are not wrong either.

It's not wrong to want something different at 47 than you did at 7.

I'm just tired of the uncivil discourse, the snide personal attacks and circular arguments. It's a shame because this place really was one of the friendliest forums for a long, long time.

And with that, I'm done.

39 minutes ago, Maelora said:

I'm just tired of the uncivil discourse, the snide personal attacks and circular arguments. It's a shame because this place really was one of the friendliest forums for a long, long time.

And with that, I'm done.

... I'll miss you, Marcy ...

5 minutes ago, Absol197 said:

... I'll miss you, Marcy ...

Eh, I didn't mean 'done with the board' (although I'm not around here as often as I was)

I just meant I didn't want to hang around on the thread and argue constantly, because it's just opinions and it's not possible to 'win' that kind of argument

Hugs,

Marcy

34 minutes ago, Maelora said:

Eh, I didn't mean 'done with the board' (although I'm not around here as often as I was)

I just meant I didn't want to hang around on the thread and argue constantly, because it's just opinions and it's not possible to 'win' that kind of argument

Hugs,

Marcy

Oh! That makes me feel better . I'm glad I I was just misinterpreting you, then .

Hugs!

EDIT: (Also! Marcy! I finally did a thing ! It's a massive WiP, but I'd love your opinion!)

You’re probably right, @Maelora . This one has just managed to press all the right wrong buttons for me, and has opted to make it personal a couple of times.

I suppose I could be the bigger person, but part of me just sees that as letting him get away with...stuff.

(At least I thought better of including a particular Garry Shandling gif from Iron Man 2 here.... ? )

He's a stranger on a message board and you aren't the world gaming police. You can't "let him get away with stuff" because he's not in your real life social circle. He's just pixels on a screen and so are you. You can't stop him from doing anything, stuff or otherwise, and what he does doesn't actually affect you. Gaming preferences are wholly subjective. So is fandom to a large extent. What people want and don't want in their games, what hits their Star Wars button or leaves them cold, and the tone and tenor they want to strike has no objectively correct or incorrect standard you can impose on them or they on you. He stated his preferences. They do not match your own. What is their, beyond rank egotism, to argue about? I've never understood that aspect of Internet culture. Aruging preferences. Its ludicrous. His preferences don't cost you anything and don't impact your gaming experience. If he and his gaming group have a comfortable consensus on how their table runs that is entirely their business. If they don't, that is entirely their problem. Arguing about it is just wasted time. He can have his bad-wrong-fun and you can have yours. I fail to see the problem.

27 minutes ago, Vondy said:

He's a stranger on a message board and you aren't the world gaming police. You can't "let him get away with stuff" because he's not in your real life social circle. He's just pixels on a screen and so are you. You can't stop him from doing anything, stuff or otherwise, and what he does doesn't actually affect you. Gaming preferences are wholly subjective. So is fandom to a large extent. What people want and don't want in their games, what hits their Star Wars button or leaves them cold, and the tone and tenor they want to strike has no objectively correct or incorrect standard you can impose on them or they on you. He stated his preferences. They do not match your own. What is their, beyond rank egotism, to argue about? I've never understood that aspect of Internet culture. Aruging preferences. Its ludicrous. His preferences don't cost you anything and don't impact your gaming experience. If he and his gaming group have a comfortable consensus on how their table runs that is entirely their business. If they don't, that is entirely their problem. Arguing about it is just wasted time. He can have his bad-wrong-fun and you can have yours. I fail to see the problem.

As I've told him (more than) several times, Vondy, it's not about his gaming preferences. If he wants to restrict elements, run like Freemaker Adventures, or toss in everything from the kitchen sink to beyond...have at it. What's pushed all the right wrong buttons is the insults and condescension to those who don't play his way. It's not restricted to this thread, either. He's carried his shots at those who don't play by his style to other threads, as well. That's what I have trouble letting him get away with; I have a hard time just turning a blind eye to someone treating others like bantha poodoo.

On 6/2/2018 at 6:51 PM, Archlyte said:

Hey can I state again that I am looking to discuss the finer points of trying to meet a standard of fidelity (which can be varying of course) to the type of game some have been describing in this thread successfully here and there? If you are a beer and pretzels gamer then no offense, but this thread isn't about your type of game. In the same way that a Yahtzee thread isn't about Checkers, this thread is not about games with a casual approach to simulation.

Beer and pretzels seems a pretty decent state of mind for a game based on movies that are mostly space operas.