20 minutes ago, Vondy said:

I also enjoyed the early Ravenloft setting, though you had to do tone control to avoid it becoming too bleak and "crapsack" to enjoy.

Tracey Hickman's original Ravenloft, and the sequel, were among my favourite D&D adventures. I didn't like the expanded setting though - that came in 2nd edition and 'railroading' didn't begin to describe it. Honestly, the modules were just horror-stories (of varying quality) that had the PCs forced into them as mute bystanders. Probably the worst role-playing I ever saw, topped only by Gary G's chimp-out (pun intended) on 'Isle of the Ape' (which for the uninitiated, was an 'adventure' explicitly intended to kill off high-level characters, and Gygax huffily wrote that if they didn't want to be killed off, 'they weren't playing their characters properly'. Mercifully by the this time there were loads of better settings out there and D&D's venerable creator sank into obscurity after that).

Oddly enough, while I played Mystara straight, the Ravenloft adventures were very much a proto-MarcyVerse, as I made Strahd the good guy, and Siegfried the wastrel younger brother having an affair with his trashy gypsy wife. It all kicked off when Strahd caught them together, killed his brother in a fit of rage which he instantly regretted, and brought the whole curse down on everyone's heads. Playing Strahd as a formerly nice guy, fighting against his curse and struggling for redemption, was much more fun than the bland villain the modules gave us. And interestingly, the 5th edition version of Ravenloft expressly tells us to make him as bland as possible, just another generic bad-guy doing it 'for the evulz', and not to be tempted to make him interesting or human like (the admittedly-awful) 'Twilight' or the protagoinists of a certain White Wolf RPG that goes un-named...)

10 minutes ago, Maelora said:

Tracey Hickman's original Ravenloft, and the sequel, were among my favourite D&D adventures. I didn't like the expanded setting though - that came in 2nd edition and 'railroading' didn't begin to describe it. Honestly, the modules were just horror-stories (of varying quality) that had the PCs forced into them as mute bystanders. Probably the worst role-playing I ever saw, topped only by Gary G's chimp-out (pun intended) on 'Isle of the Ape' (which for the uninitiated, was an 'adventure' explicitly intended to kill off high-level characters, and Gygax huffily wrote that if they didn't want to be killed off, 'they weren't playing their characters properly'. Mercifully by the this time there were loads of better settings out there and D&D's venerable creator sank into obscurity after that).

Agreed about the original modules. They were fantastic. Truth be told, Hickman deserves a lot of credit for revolutionizing modules and championing "story" in games early on. I know it had a big impact on how I ran games. I also agree about most of the other modules. You really had to rework them to make the player character's the protagonists and invest them in what was going on. I was more interested in the gothic tropes of Ravenloft as a setting and its attendant hacks via the VR Guides to various monsters, etc. I found those very useful and used them to inspire my "not stuck in the mists of doom" game.

10 minutes ago, Maelora said:

...and not to be tempted to make him interesting or human like (the admittedly-awful) 'Twilight' or the protagonists of a certain White Wolf RPG that goes un-named...

Strahd Von Zarovich does not sparkle!

11 minutes ago, Vondy said:

Strahd Von Zarovich does not sparkle!

Indeedy not, but that doesn't mean he can't be an interesting antagonist.

Absolutely agree with you about the rest, though. Horror only really works in RPGs when the PCs have both agency and a personal stake.

Sort of touching on topics that have come up here—

I’ve recently started catching up on the new canon via audiobooks. In the past few weeks, I’ve listened to Rebel Rising , Leia, Princess of Alderaan , and am currently about 1/4 - 1/3 of the way through Lost Stars . Something that I’ve noticed is that these “young adult” novels tend to more directly and overtly involve sex and sexuality. The former two make points of including scenes in which Jyn and Leia respectively lose their virginity, and the latter (even though I’m only partway through) has had a scene with someone talking about “the only thing to do with” a girl from the wrong side of the proverbial tracks and lamentations about how “sexual relations between Imperial cadets are forbidden.”

To be fair, Phasma (a “regular” novel) also included some description of the polyamorous-by-necessity nature of the Scyre (Phasma’s tribe on her homeworld). Meanwhile, Lords of the Sith and Battlefront II: Inferno Squad included references to the sex trade that many Twi’lek women (and girls) are forced into, but were more subtle and circumspect in addressing it.

What I find interesting is that the books aimed at a younger audience seem to be more open and (generally) more positive on the subject than the novels targeted at an ostensibly older audience.

Either way, for better or for worse (depending on your Certain Point of View), more open sexuality is now a part of “official” Star Wars.

Re: the original topic: As others have noted, the seedier elements of life get some pretty frequent screen time, so I feel that a completely sanitized vision of the SW galaxy is disingenuous. Please note that I am not saying that the RPG should be X-rated or anything, but I see nothing wrong with kicking it up to PG-13, especially since real character development (something a RPG seems more likely to handle than the original films do) is likely going to involve touching upon a host of issues, some morally grey stuff, and maybe sexuality.

I am also morally obligated to note that I see some language being aired, and some false conclusions being reached regarding non hetero-normal sexuality that, as a gay man, make me profoundly uncomfortable. I realize that I might be walking into a wall of poodoo, but there it is.

20 hours ago, Maelora said:

I'm a lifelong GM who's been playing D&D since she was ten. That sharpens both the opinions and the vocabulary

Got to admit I've never cared for Greyhawk; I was about to give up on D&D because it didn't match the epic adventures I read in Lord of the Rings and Wizard of Earthsea. Then along came Dragonlance (as deeply flawed as that was) and I hit my teens and started dating my players. I see why people would like Greyhawk - it's inspired by Howard and Lieber, old-school 'Swords & Sorcery'. But I couldn't take the names seriously; Gleep Wurp the Eyebiter, Fnast Dringle, Philotomy Jurament and Fonkin Hoddypeak are all indelibly etched on my brain

"Gleep Wurp the Eyebiter?" What the **** did I miss?

1 hour ago, Degenerate Mind said:

"Gleep Wurp the Eyebiter?" What the **** did I miss?

'Eyebite' is a 6th level spell, so at least his name makes a kind of weird sense; he's a mage who likes casting the Eyebite spell.

But Mr and Mrs Wurp clearly hated their son's guts when it came to naming him.

The young Marcy was very much into Many-Coloured Land, Thomas Covenant, Lord of the Rings and Wizard of Earthsea (Narnia was way too middle-class for me). Dragonlance had characters named Sturm Brightblade, Flint Fireforge and Kaylyn 'Tasselenhoff' Burfoot. Greyhawk had pregens named Fage the Kexy, Gutboy Barrelhouse and Frush O' Suggil. Guess which one the young impressionable Marcy fell in love with?

It's gotta be Gutboy, right ?

5 minutes ago, Maelora said:

'Eyebite' is a 6th level spell, so at least his name makes a kind of weird sense; he's a mage who likes casting the Eyebite spell.

But Mr and Mrs Wurp clearly hated their son's guts when it came to naming him.

The young Marcy was very much into Many-Coloured Land, Thomas Covenant, Lord of the Rings and Wizard of Earthsea (Narnia was way too middle-class for me). Dragonlance had characters named Sturm Brightblade, Flint Fireforge and Kaylyn 'Tasselenhoff' Burfoot. Greyhawk had pregens named Fage the Kexy, Gutboy Barrelhouse and Frush O' Suggil. Guess which one the young impressionable Marcy fell in love with?

I was quite a Dragonlance fan myself. About eight years ago, I ran out of new ones to read at my local library, and once I got to college, it was great to finally get into the hobby that inspired those books.

2 hours ago, Mindless Philosopher said:

Re: the original topic: As others have noted, the seedier elements of life get some pretty frequent screen time, so I feel that a completely sanitized vision of the SW galaxy is disingenuous. Please note that I am not saying that the RPG should be X-rated or anything, but I see nothing wrong with kicking it up to PG-13, especially since real character development (something a RPG seems more likely to handle than the original films do) is likely going to involve touching upon a host of issues, some morally grey stuff, and maybe sexuality.

I concur, and that stuff is a matter for each table, and the sensibilities of the people involved. My touchstones are Dragon Age, Mass Effect, and Firefly; my players like Game of Thrones, The Witcher and Tarantino movies. For the most part, we meet in the middle.

Quote

I am also morally obligated to note that I see some language being aired, and some false conclusions being reached regarding non hetero-normal sexuality that, as a gay man, make me profoundly uncomfortable. I realize that I might be walking into a wall of poodoo, but there it is.

Um, could you give us some examples? This is a pretty good Forum as such things go. Some people like Donovan, Vondy and Archlyte have strong opinions, but I think they express them well for the most part, and I'm all for going outside of expected orthodoxy. Discussions and arguments can be civil, and they usually don't get toxic around here.

I came out in 1988 (to the surprise of absolutely nobody) and by and large I think most gamers are a tolerant bunch in general. Mostly I live and work in a 'post-gay' world; thirteen year olds sing the lyrics of Hayley Kiyoko's 'Girls Like Girls' or Kadie Elder's 'First Time He Kissed A Boy' and don't bat an eyelid - it's normalised for them.

GMing has taught me a LOT about getting on with others. For most of my life I've gamed with straight white guys, but my current group has different ethnicities (black, Asian, south-Asian and I am ethnically Eastern European), Ari, who's trans, a gay man, two lesbians and three bisexual people, one of whom is me. Oh, and a Buddhist, an ex-Muslim and two practising Catholics, one of whom is training for the priesthood. And we all get on fine because mutual respect is our #1 rule, and we got together to play awesome fantasy/space-opera games rather than trying to score points on each other.

So if you're feeling uncomfortable, maybe you can indicate what's bothering you? I'm betting it was not intended to make you feel uncomfortable, and maybe clarification might help. (Among friends, teasing and banter about sexuality, gender, ethnicity and faith is pretty much the norm, because we know our audience. Plus, we're probably drunk ).

Please don't worry about it. I feel like a complete tool for bringing it up, to be honest. I apologize. I should have thought of a more constructive way to bring it up without potentially antagonizing others.

12 minutes ago, Absol197 said:

It's gotta be Gutboy, right ?

Ah, you got me

(Actually, to be pedantic, he wasn't actually a pregen but an example character in the rules... Mama Barrelhouse still evidently hated his, um, guts though, to saddle him with that moniker...)

2 minutes ago, Mindless Philosopher said:

Please don't worry about it. I feel like a complete tool for bringing it up, to be honest. I apologize. I should have thought of a more constructive way to bring it up without potentially antagonizing others.

I just find that politely asking about something that bothers me is better, because mostly the other person doesn't know they are doing it.

Trust me, I'm an honorary guy at my table and sometimes my players, over the years, forget I'm a girl and bisexual. They occasionally say stuff that was never intended to cause me offence. And part of being a GM is developing a long fuse and a thick skin .

29 minutes ago, Mindless Philosopher said:

Please don't worry about it. I feel like a complete tool for bringing it up, to be honest. I apologize. I should have thought of a more constructive way to bring it up without potentially antagonizing others.

Ahh... I just read the other thread, and I see what you mean, now. So... yeah, I get it and I see where you're coming from.

But it certainly wasn't intentional or aimed at you. Ferret's one of the good guys here. He was just messing about.

I sometimes say stuff like 'I love you and want to have your penguin/ferret/cactus babies'. It's just banter and horseplay, no offense intended.

At the table I get teased about everything from my diminutive size, my hipster look, my gender and sexuality and even my date of birth. I wouldn't have it any other way, but that's because I know where they're all coming from, and that's harder to do on a forum with strangers than in person with friends.

Honestly, if you think someone's getting out of line, a quiet word would help. Sometimes I've had to do that and sometimes I've been the one to apologise too.

But this forum is pretty cool place. I've seen much, MUCH worse.

Oh, no, no, no, no, it's nothing at all Ferret has said or done. He seems like a great guy!

I will come back to this issue maybe later today, but for now, I just see the word "deviant" being thrown around a lot in this thread and seemingly defined as 'anything that is not strictly heteronormative, ideally for purposes of reproduction.' I just wanted to make sure that the posters involved were not intimating that 'standard' homosexuality be included under that designation.

Interestingly enough, regarding inter-species stuff: I get the feeling that, in universe, it's implied that as long as they're both sentient and consenting adults (a most definite NO in the second caveat in Jabba's nasty proclivities, it should be stressed), it's okay. We've seen two human/Twi'lek pairings in the shows, and that (really nicely-dressed) girl in TFA who was flirting with that Aqualish-looking guy in Maz's castle.

Okay, cool. I hadn't picked up on that, fair point. Again, I don't think anything is meant by it in this context though. Star Wars has star-crossed wolfman and lamprey-girl lovers; I think it's a pretty liberal genre

Just didn't want to see new people put off, that's all. We're an oddball bunch but mostly friendly.

Just now, Maelora said:

Okay, cool. I hadn't picked up on that, fair point. Again, I don't think anything is meant by it in this context though. Star Wars has star-crossed wolfman and lamprey-girl lovers; I think it's a pretty liberal genre

Just didn't want to see new people put off, that's all. We're an oddball bunch but mostly friendly.

I really liked that story. They stuck the landing by making it just silly enough and just serious enough. Reading it is why the Shistavanen are my favorite species. And I must confess, I want a guy to tell me that "choice is an illusion" when it might involve not being with me...

Upon reflection, that anthology of Mos Eiseley Cantina stories is my favorite EU work that I've read (and I'm enough of a literary snob to limit my exposure to EU things). I think a lot of genre fiction shines in the short story form; it's enough room to sketch a novel concept without letting it run away with itself.

19 minutes ago, Mindless Philosopher said:

Please don't worry about it. I feel like a complete tool for bringing it up, to be honest. I apologize. I should have thought of a more constructive way to bring it up without potentially antagonizing others.

I'm genuinely curious about what made you feel that way. I went back and scanned the thread and while I did see posts by ostensibly heterosexual people that touch on sexuality, I didn't see anything that necessarily excluded expressions of bisexual or homosexual sexuality by other posters. People tend to speak to their own experience and from their own perspective, but that isn't in of itself censorship. People cannot effectively or genuinely represent anyone other than themselves. As a straight male, I can only speak to the heteronormative experience, and that experience forms my "default perceptions." That does not mean I'm not aware other people's experiences and interpretive lenses vary. I would encourage you, if you want to see your sexuality represented in the thread, or an alternate interpretation of source material, that you step out and represent! One thing gaming has encouraged in my own life is an imagining of others and their experiences. While I have (as was astutely noted) strong opinions I am also a tolerant soul with reasonable "listening skills."

I am an openly practicing Orthodox Jew and have dealt with bigotry, discrimination, and ignorance as a matter of course in my own life. Most people would assume that is limited to "stormfront white power types," by I guarantee you it is not. I seldom run across those idiots. Rather, it comes from a weird array of unexpected demographics who would blanche at having it pointed out to them. I have more issues with self-proclaimed "progressive" ideologues than anyone else. But, my point in bringing that up isn't to compete in a victim olympiad. It is this: I don't expect non-Jews or non-practicing Jews to represent me or my experience. In fact, I would be offended if they arrogated that role for themselves. It would be straight up chutzpah as well as inauthentic! Instead, it's on me to do that. If I want a voice that represents my own experience and identity I have to speak with it. I encourage you to interject your own voice into our conversation!

Thank you, Vondy; you're very kind.

And again, please allow me to apologize for potential topic derailment/making it all about me. Ugh...

Just now, Mindless Philosopher said:

Thank you, Vondy; you're very kind.

And again, please allow me to apologize for potential topic derailment/making it all about me. Ugh...

It's the Internet. Derailment is to be expected!

Well said.

(I still look at that avatar and expect Desslok, though! )

1 minute ago, Maelora said:

Well said.

(I still look at that avatar and expect Desslok, though! )

One of the reasons I knew my lurking time must soon end and that the planets were aligned for my forum debut was the mysterious, inexplicable, and somewhat terrifying appearance of... a second angry penguin .

Have we ever seen them together in the same room...?

But which one is the Evil Twin?

25 minutes ago, Maelora said:

Well said.

(I still look at that avatar and expect Desslok, though! )

I was just about to post much the same thing.

Vondy and Desslok are clearly the Light/Dark side aspects of the same penguin. Vondy is formal and structured, very orderly and clearly the Light Side, while Desslok is much more random and chaotic, truly an expression of the Dark!* But both are smart, fun, and nice .

*This is using my "Light Side = Law, Dark Side = Chaos" theory of the Force, not the more common Good/Evil view.