The issue is we don't see Wedge, Luke and Hobbie being fielded nearly as much as they should be due to the fact that FFG Decided to run the name of the game into the mud and give the T-65 the wonderful ability of being unable to stay competitive despite it having some of the most iconic and famous pilots in its cockpit over the years of Star Wars. Its not just a insult to the fans, but the original fluff and gameplay of the game.

Ok, speaking - again - as a Star Wars apathetic player since the start of the game, when Superfriends and Fat Han roamed free to herd the swarms of TIEs around the remarkably 2D section of space, it really is not an insult to the gameplay. It's unfortunate, sure, but fandom doesn't trump gameplay any more than fluff does.

The game is only called "X-wing" because it's a catchy marketing name. It's not called TIE Fighter, which is equally iconic, and which outnumbers it in the box. It's not even called X-wing Vs TIE Fighter, because it's just not as snappy. There's no mention of YT-1300s for Han or TIE Advanced for Vader, either. Don't get hung up on the title of the game.

Remember, not even the original PC game of the same name that this game has famously drawn heavily from (also, yay gunboat!) featured the X-wing more prominently than any other ship. If anything, I spent most of that game in a B-wing...

57 minutes ago, NakedDex said:

Ok, speaking - again - as a Star Wars apathetic player since the start of the game, when Superfriends and Fat Han roamed free to herd the swarms of TIEs around the remarkably 2D section of space, it really is not an insult to the gameplay. It's unfortunate, sure, but fandom doesn't trump gameplay any more than fluff does.

The game is only called "X-wing" because it's a catchy marketing name. It's not called TIE Fighter, which is equally iconic, and which outnumbers it in the box. It's not even called X-wing Vs TIE Fighter, because it's just not as snappy. There's no mention of YT-1300s for Han or TIE Advanced for Vader, either. Don't get hung up on the title of the game.

Remember, not even the original PC game of the same name that this game has famously drawn heavily from (also, yay gunboat!) featured the X-wing more prominently than any other ship. If anything, I spent most of that game in a B-wing...

Speaking as someone who is not apathetic about the source material, I agree with this. Yes, Rogue Squadron Characters are some of the most famous to us, but they're not the only ones. Should T-65s be given a helping hand to make them more competitive? Absolutely. But so should ships like the E-Wing, the U-Wing, the TIE Punisher, the Interceptor, and so on. I do not believe having ships that aren't X-Wings doing better than them is an insult to either the gameplay or the fluff.

21 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:

Should Palpatine, Vader, Jabba, Boba Fett, Luke and Han be the most powerful characters in the game? Should the most iconic characters rule the game?

This is really two different questions.

Should they have the most powerful abilities? Yes.

But would those powers rule the game? Only if those abilities are undercosted.

You can give them an overwhelming power, but if the cost to field them is equally overwhelming, then it shouldn't effect the balance of the game.

If Luke had been made today, it would be a 22 pt. X-wing with the following pilot ability:

Your ship cannot acquire target locks. When attacking, you may turn one of your dice to a critical hit or two of your dice to hit.

That's just where the power level of the game is now. X-wings have been left in the dust. Some people are already chomping at the but to say "But but but Biggs...!" But Biggs was always the best x-wing and allegedly even FFG folk would nerf him if they thought it wouldn't create a mass exodus. **** they may do it anyway to appease all the whining that goes on.

12 hours ago, Boris_the_Dwarf said:

If Luke had been made today,

Yeah, well that's the whole problem. They created all of the iconic characters at the beginning (for obvious reasons), and now the game has evolved into something very different.

The usual ballyhoo is to fix lagging ships. Now I guess we are going to complain about fixing lagging characters.

Not saying it is not a good idea, but from time to time I wonder how many new and different things we could already have if 50% of the time wasn't spent looking backwards.

In a word, yes.

Luke should have Poe's ability.

Sucks that he doesn't.

23 hours ago, NakedDex said:

Ok, speaking - again - as a Star Wars apathetic player since the start of the game, when Superfriends and Fat Han roamed free to herd the swarms of TIEs around the remarkably 2D section of space, it really is not an insult to the gameplay. It's unfortunate, sure, but fandom doesn't trump gameplay any more than fluff does.

The game is only called "X-wing" because it's a catchy marketing name. It's not called TIE Fighter, which is equally iconic, and which outnumbers it in the box. It's not even called X-wing Vs TIE Fighter, because it's just not as snappy. There's no mention of YT-1300s for Han or TIE Advanced for Vader, either. Don't get hung up on the title of the game.

Remember, not even the original PC game of the same name that this game has famously drawn heavily from (also, yay gunboat!) featured the X-wing more prominently than any other ship. If anything, I spent most of that game in a B-wing...

While the ability to ionize a tie fighter so new waves wouldn't spawn was very helpful (as was disabling capital ships), the X wing was the best fighter in the game for the rebels, IMHO. The B wing had great shields, but then again so did the Y-wing. At least until XvT came out.

I feel it's a very lazy marketing campaign if the game's name is what it is because it's catchy. I got into the game because it was a table top game modeled (in part if not mostly) on the old flight sims. At least, it used to be. I am not sure you can argue otherwise. Now...I don't know what it's becoming.

Thank goodness we got the "Gussleboat". A bit of sanity in an otherwise crazy couple of waves of releases.

And, given the current state of the game, maybe fluff should trump gameplay. Crimeny, the current competitive game sucks. The wave 11 stuff is boring and uninspiring. The wave 12 stuff, with the exception of the Gussleboat, is esoteric.

Noob players take the latest power list and roll through opponents like they're not even there. If you can't throw 4+ red dice, don't bother bringing it.

Ordinance isn't the problem, either. It's the inevitable power creep that happened after wave 8 or so. It's really too bad FFG overreacted and nerfed the Phantom. The old decloaking rules wouldn't be too bad now, would they? Yes, I was around for pre-nerf Phantoms. Focused ion weaponry worked like a charm then, just like it does now.

Maybe, as others have suggested, you increase the points limit in standard play to 105 or something like that. I dunno.

The Azituck is an insult, I feel. The Scurgggggggggh gives the meta more of what the complainers don't want to a faction that is already a PITA to play against. The Aggressor? What a joke. A stupid concept for a faction that didn't need a turreted ship, but got one because reasons. Meh. And to name a ship the B-SF17 bomber? Is this a joke? As if naming a spherical driod series "BB" isn't insulting enough, they go there.

The current game is boring and it's predictable (although naming the bomber the way they did...who saw that coming?). The recent releases seem full of ships that don't seem all that Star Warsy to me (Gussleboat and the Ep VIII stuff excepted).

Yes, I'll stick to playing the stuff I like. It just sucks that I have to express my individuality on the competitive side by conforming to the meta. I've made peace with the fact that my lists will land me in the bottom half of any SC (or larger event) I attend. I'm still going to fly them, but mayhaps just drop the tournament scene entirely.

Just gotta decide if that's "fun".

/rant. Flame away.

42 minutes ago, Scopes said:

The Azituck is an insult, I feel. The Scurgggggggggh gives the meta more of what the complainers don't want to a faction that is already a PITA to play against. The Aggressor? What a joke. A stupid concept for a faction that didn't need a turreted ship, but got one because reasons. Meh. And to name a ship the B-SF17 bomber? Is this a joke? As if naming a spherical driod series "BB" isn't insulting enough, they go there.

To be fair, FFG didn't come up with the bomber name or the BB designation. Sure, the B/SF-17 name is a bit on the nose, but I don't mind it too much.

In a greater response to this thread, I don't believe that characters in this game matter nearly as much as iconic ships being fairly represented, or having greater representation than other ships on the table. Regardless of the name of the game, it is a Star Wars game; I like new and interesting designs just like the next person, but looking at an X-Wing table these days often yields very little instant recognition from potential new players.

1 hour ago, Scopes said:

. . . the ability to ionize a tie fighter . . .

. . . is insignificant next to the power of the Force.

1 hour ago, Scopes said:

Yes, I'll stick to playing the stuff I like. It just sucks that I have to express my individuality on the competitive side by conforming to the meta. I've made peace with the fact that my lists will land me in the bottom half of any SC (or larger event) I attend. I'm still going to fly them, but mayhaps just drop the tournament scene entirely.

Just gotta decide if that's "fun".

/rant. Flame away.

If you want this game to feel like Star Wars, play a few games at 200 points. It makes a lot of difference, even if you are not fielding Huge ships.

I think this game is a blast. It probably has a lot to do with the fact that my brother doesn't keep up on things. Sure, he figured out Brobots on his own, so I've seen that, but mostly he just loves his B-wings with Luke and Wedge. He never plays Biggs. We rarely play Scum, so it's usually Imps vs. Rebels. And if we find something OP, we usually play it once or twice then drop it to get back to fun.

Look at threads by @Refugeanoth, @weisguy119, @Joe Boss Red Seven, @Parakitorand @JimbonX. Those guys are playing this game completely on their own terms, with a lot of creative energy thrown in, and having a blast.

TL/DR: If meta is pissing you off, make the game what you want it to be, not what FFG tells you it is.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

If you want this game to feel like Star Wars, play a few games at 200 points. It makes a lot of difference, even if you are not fielding Huge ships.

I think this game is a blast. It probably has a lot to do with the fact that my brother doesn't keep up on things. Sure, he figured out Brobots on his own, so I've seen that, but mostly he just loves his B-wings with Luke and Wedge. He never plays Biggs. We rarely play Scum, so it's usually Imps vs. Rebels. And if we find something OP, we usually play it once or twice then drop it to get back to fun.

Look at threads by @Refugeanoth, @weisguy119, @Joe Boss Red Seven, @Parakitorand @JimbonX. Those guys are playing this game completely on their own terms, with a lot of creative energy thrown in, and having a blast.

TL/DR: If meta is pissing you off, make the game what you want it to be, not what FFG tells you it is.

This is definitely true. Played an epic tournament today and had a blast, it's a fun break from the 100 point meta (though I still flew a pretty optimized list). Epic ships are just a lotta fun to play.

No game should be overtly broken, or have grossly overpowered/underpowered options.

However.

If you have a thematic setting, and it's obvious that there will be a certain amount of allowed/tolerated overpowered options. There's no reason not to roll with the theme. Vader, Soontir, Stele, should be the top tier choice for Imperials. Likewise, Luke, Wedge, Han, should be tops for rebels, and Boba, ........ (Enter top thematic scum pilots here) should be the best for scum.

In relation to each other, these aces should be on par with one another, and better than all those below them.

Then, FFG needs to get the ******** over it, and start FAQing point values so that none of the above matters and they can easily balance the **** game!

5 hours ago, Scopes said:

While the ability to ionize a tie fighter so new waves wouldn't spawn was very helpful (as was disabling capital ships), the X wing was the best fighter in the game for the rebels, IMHO. The B wing had great shields, but then again so did the Y-wing. At least until XvT came out.

I have to disagree with you. In the flight sims, I always found the X-wing to be the worst rebel fighter, only better than the Z-95.

As an imperial, the B-wings and Y-wings were easy to dogfight, but they had a role, and it was to be sturdy enough to release their torpedo or rocket payload before you could kill enough of them to make a difference. You could spend a while working down the shields of a fleeing B-wing or Y-wing, while its pals would keep on releasing torpedoes.
A-wings were a pain to dogfight and kill, and so, they fulfilled their role of being annoying gnats that you cannot just ignore because they came with concussion missiles and fast firing lasers.

As rebel, the B-wing and Y-wing weren't that bad. Strong shields and hull would, most of the time, bring you back home. A single Y-wing could take care of a handful of corvettes in one minute. They had a role! The Y-wing had the most precise rebel laser weapon in the game. And ions gave you some tactic ability to disarm turret ships and control the pace of the reinforcement waves.
The A-wing was the ultimate dogfighter. Agile, fast and quick at firing allowed you to keep your target in arc all the time. You could dodge most incoming fire and missiles easily.

The X-wing? It was so meh! There was literally no missions in the game that you couldn't just play better if you were flying any other rebel ship of the above mentioned? Need to destroy some convoy or capital ship? Bring a B-wing or Y-wing. Need to dogfight or escort some bombers, or intercept incoming bombers? Bring an A-wing.
The X-wing felt like it was there because it was supposed to be there. It was the fighter the main characters fly in the movies! Sure. But not great at anything.
Their cannons are the most spread out for rebels, meaning that you will miss with most of them until they added the weapon convergence cheat in XWA just to try and buff the X-wing.
As an imperial, getting a incoming wave of X-wings meant an easy time. It was the closest thing to sleeping you could get. Puny shields, puny hull. Their few torpedoes weren't really much of a threat to capital ships, and useless in a dogfight. Less maneuverable than a TIE Fighter, just do not joust them and you win.
In "Star Wars: X-wing" once the rebels get the B-wing, they stop fielding Y-wings and X-wings because, looking at the raw performance facts, pairing A-wings and B-wings was just so much more effective most of the time.

TL;DR: The X-wing in this miniature game represents very well how the X-wing was in the flight sims. A meh fighter, not particularly good at anything, that has more name because of being the one that they keep making the main characters fly in movies, comics and novels, and not because of it deserves it.
If you want to buff the X-wing to be more like in the movies, you need to give it the Mary Sue status it has in those media.

On ‎16‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 6:25 PM, Darth Meanie said:

So, had to spend 5 minutes laughing before I could post.

When I used to play the Decipher SWCCG, one of the things I hated was that the "Mains and Toys" deck builds became the only thing worth playing. Stormtroopers were commons, and were absolute crap and a waste of cardstock. If you did not have "Han Solo" + "Solo's DL-44 Blaster" you didn't have a chance. The game no longer felt like it was set in the Star Wars Universe, but more like a brawl in Club S-W where only the Who's Who of the Galaxy got snippy with one another. Not to mention that all the Mains and Toys were rares, so winning decks literally cost hundreds of dollars (maybe even a thousand--Vader was going for $100 alone on the secondary market!).

One of the thing I like about this game was that the lowly Academy Pilot had a role. The game is loosing that because of unique pilots being overly powerful. I don't care if it is Luke, Nym, Han, or Vader, or Dash. I don't want this game to devolve into Mains-only.

OTOH, one lead that XWM could take from Decipher is multiple versions of the same main: we have 2 Poes and 2 Hans, but what about Vader in a V-Wing? Or Lando in the Lady Luck? Or make a version of Luke that fires proton torpedoes without a target lock. Yeah, it wouldn't look classic on the table, but it might give the OT folks new life.

Lastly, my brother flew Luke and Wedge last week in a game of Epic. They are still pilots that given me fits.

Agreed. How many versions of some of the same characters with different costs and abilities does the SW LCG now have?

The OP made the question in a somewhat retoric manner, implying we will go to OP-**** if iconic characters are getting buffed. But the fact is that nearly everybody would like these characters to be relevant in the meta. And non of them really is. You can see a Vader here and there and every few years someone brings aout the fat han but thats it. Some of these characters have never been relevant. Did anybody ever use a Leia Organa crew upgrade? FFG should just reprint these Characters with new abilitys to keep them in the meta. Make the relevant, make the T1 you can do that without making them opressively OP I know you can do it you are professional game designers.

9 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

If you want this game to feel like Star Wars, play a few games at 200 points. It makes a lot of difference, even if you are not fielding Huge ships.

I think this game is a blast. It probably has a lot to do with the fact that my brother doesn't keep up on things. Sure, he figured out Brobots on his own, so I've seen that, but mostly he just loves his B-wings with Luke and Wedge. He never plays Biggs. We rarely play Scum, so it's usually Imps vs. Rebels. And if we find something OP, we usually play it once or twice then drop it to get back to fun.

Look at threads by @Refugeanoth, @weisguy119, @Joe Boss Red Seven, @Parakitorand @JimbonX. Those guys are playing this game completely on their own terms, with a lot of creative energy thrown in, and having a blast.

TL/DR: If meta is pissing you off, make the game what you want it to be, not what FFG tells you it is.

Thanks dude! The system for the game is too good to let one aspect (competitive play) get you down. There's so many other ways to play, and if you can't find one that you like, make one!

Everyone is talking up Luke, but if we are talking about OT, what do we actually SEE Luke do as a pilot?

He blows up some static defense towers, he blows up a few TIEs, he manages to avoid being shot by Vader for a little while, he gets a lucky space magic torpedo shot, and then he crashes. A lot.

He crashes in the snow after trying to face tank an AT-AT. He crashes on Dagobah. The only thing he can do as a pilot after Episode 4 is fly from point A to point B, and land on Dagobah the second time.

I know that there is EU stuff (and I think some comics) that show him being a super badass pilot, but from the movies (which everyone is harping about) he is nowhere as good as Wedge, Poe, Han, or Anakin/Vader, all of who we see do far more badass stuff stuff in a cockpit.

On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 9:12 AM, Boom Owl said:

He destroyed the Death Star and easily has the most kills of any pilot ever.

Do you mean because there were a lot of people on the Death Star? It was a single craft, so as Gimli would say, "That still only counts as one!"

6 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Do you mean because there were a lot of people on the Death Star? It was a single craft, so as Gimli would say, "That still only counts as one!"

Eh, more like three. One for doing damage, one for killing it, and one for it not being a basic TIE.

hmm. I might have played HotAC recently.

14 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Do you mean because there were a lot of people on the Death Star? It was a single craft, so as Gimli would say, "That still only counts as one!"

Besides, Wedge is the only pilot to have 2 death star silhouettes painted on his ship.

1 minute ago, VanderLegion said:

Besides, Wedge is the only pilot to have 2 death star silhouettes painted on his ship.

Great. Now I want a scene of Luke and Wedge flying around keeping tally of their kills in a Gimli/Legolas-style competition.

9 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Eh, more like three. One for doing damage, one for killing it, and one for it not being a basic TIE.

hmm. I might have played HotAC recently.

Also counts as a boss-level villain, so that's another, and then it was the goal of that mission, so that's another one for each player present.

Just now, Kieransi said:

Also counts as a boss-level villain, so that's another, and then it was the goal of that mission, so that's another one for each player present.

Oh, good point. So Luke got five. Not bad for a moon sized battle station, heh.

2 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Oh, good point. So Luke got five. Not bad for a moon sized battle station, heh.

Ah, but for Luke's Death Star kill, the team also gets another one for Ben using his ability to help Luke get the shot!