7 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

What incentive did people have to buy new waves since wave 8 in March 2016?

Imperial Veterans

All of wave 9 has seen a lot of competitive play.

Sabines TIE

Scurrg

auzituck

8 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Imperial Veterans

All of wave 9 has seen a lot of competitive play.

Sabines TIE

Scurrg

auzituck

I should have put more explanation and less snark into my comment

My point as response was: if a broken ship would really result in less purchases by the players, then everyone would have stayed with Jumpmasters. But they/we didn't.

Hence I don't believe that an OP Luke would really remove the incentive to buy a new wave

13 hours ago, NakedDex said:

Plot Shields don't make for good gameplay.

So obscure EU characters should dominate instead?

Of course Vader, Han, Luke, Wedge, Boba, and other iconic movie characters should be the best.

16 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I should have put more explanation and less snark into my comment

My point as response was: if a broken ship would really result in less purchases by the players, then everyone would have stayed with Jumpmasters. But they/we didn't.

Hence I don't believe that an OP Luke would really remove the incentive to buy a new wave

Well scum got even more broken stuff, and not everyone wants to play scum, so imperials and rebels got other good stuff worth buying. Note that not all of the new stuff sees competitive tables regularly, just the really good stuff. You aren't seeing lots of quadjumpers and ywings. You see shadowcaster she, protectorates, scurrgs, sabines tie, etc. aka the newer really good stuff. The jumpmaster is really good but it's not the best thing in the game. If named pilots were the best ones in the game and everything else was second tier or worse like the quadjumper and the uwing, that would be an entirely different story on what competitive players buy.

1 minute ago, VanderLegion said:

Well scum got even more broken stuff, and not everyone wants to play scum, so imperials and rebels got other good stuff worth buying. Note that not all of the new stuff sees competitive tables regularly, just the really good stuff. You aren't seeing lots of quadjumpers and ywings. You see shadowcaster she, protectorates, scurrgs, sabines tie, etc. aka the newer really good stuff. The jumpmaster is really good but it's not the best thing in the game. If named pilots were the best ones in the game and everything else was second tier or worse like the quadjumper and the uwing, that would be an entirely different story on what competitive players buy.

I mean yes, but the new expansions could always include new cards that keep the popular characters competitive.

Dengar needs to buy a Uwing for Expertise. Imperial Alpha needs to buy Guns for Hire for Harpoons.

I honestly don't see why an OP Luke instead of an OP Nym or Miranda would be worse. I'm not saying anything should be OP. But I'm also saying that OP pilots that are well known are cooler.

1 hour ago, GrimmyV said:

Fixed that for ya.

Oops. I guess his wingmen were in V-Wings.

All good. TWO prequel ships needed to flesh out the fledgling Imperial Fleet.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

I should have put more explanation and less snark into my comment

My point as response was: if a broken ship would really result in less purchases by the players, then everyone would have stayed with Jumpmasters. But they/we didn't.

Hence I don't believe that an OP Luke would really remove the incentive to buy a new wave

Talking only for Scum (as Jumpmasters are Scum, an OP Scum ship likely has no influence of the purchasing habits of Rebels/Imperials, unless their faction disappears from the meta and/or they switch).

Wave 8 had Lancer and Protectorate (aka 2/3 pieces of Parattani, which pre-Manaroo nerf was likely the strongest squad in the game) and wave 10 has Nym (aka the ship everyone is complaining about currently). Apart from Wave 9 (Quadjumper), all the post-Jumpmaster waves were pure win for Scum. I'm willing to bet that out of all the post-Jumpmaster Scummships, Quadjumper got the least sales.

4 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Talking only for Scum (as Jumpmasters are Scum, an OP Scum ship likely has no influence of the purchasing habits of Rebels/Imperials, unless their faction disappears from the meta and/or they switch).

Wave 8 had Lancer and Protectorate (aka 2/3 pieces of Parattani, which pre-Manaroo nerf was likely the strongest squad in the game) and wave 10 has Nym (aka the ship everyone is complaining about currently). Apart from Wave 9 (Quadjumper), all the post-Jumpmaster waves were pure win for Scum. I'm willing to bet that out of all the post-Jumpmaster Scummships, Quadjumper got the least sales.

but a Dengar also needs to buy the U-Wing (see my previous reply) for Expertise

And that is a working model: keep the known players at the top by including new, necessary cards and thus also increasing the options for them.

Of course that's harder to do for an X-Wing with "just" 5 slots, but it should be possible.

17 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

but a Dengar also needs to buy the U-Wing (see my previous reply) for Expertise

And that is a working model: keep the known players at the top by including new, necessary cards and thus also increasing the options for them.

Of course that's harder to do for an X-Wing with "just" 5 slots, but it should be possible.

However, a Dengar player doesn't need any of the other 4 (80%) expansions that are in the same wave as the U-wing.

Moving ships only based on 'must-have' cards for existing expansions is a model that's first of all difficult to do (FFG has a less than stellar record of anticipating the meta) and secondly difficult to 'sell' the players on. People already grumble about stuff like including Palpatine in the Raider, C-3P0 in the Corvette, keeping Starviper as the only source for Autothrusters etc. Imagine if stuff like that was the rule, instead of the exception.

1 hour ago, BlodVargarna said:

So obscure EU characters should dominate instead?

Of course Vader, Han, Luke, Wedge, Boba, and other iconic movie characters should be the best.

Nothing should "dominate" really. I have zero issue with them being strong, but just because someone can wield a lightsaber really well, or is a crack shot with a rifle, doesn't mean they're going to be a ****-hot combat pilot.

I'm all for having iconic characters be present in the meta of the game (I still love running Vader in the Advanced), especially since I'm not that big a SW fan, so 90% of the pilots/crew I see are entirely new to me, but I don't think Vader/Luke should have super-duper extra buffs just because of their name. They may both be cracking pilots, but they're also both tied to the limits of the ship they're in.

Yes they should. No really the well known characters should be tier 1 and if they loose their T1 status they should be buffed. That doesn't mean others could never be T1 too especially if they are relative prominent ones like Bossk, Antilles or Tarkin. But characters like Boba Fett, Vader Luke, Leia, Rey and Max Rebo should always be present in the Meta.

I wonder why the Meta never congealed around a Quadjumpah with cad Bane and Bomblets. Zuvio can totally drop a bomb and back up, even BR with the right tech upgrade. Super cheap too! Look out Nym, there's a new sherrif, um, constable in town!

I actually tried Zuvio as a bomber for a while, using Scav Crane for reloads. It was fun, but it just didn't seem to be all that good. Never tried it with Cad and Bomblet though. Might give that one a shot for funsies.

I want to say yes, in a way, but the only truly manageable way I can fathom this can be done would be to insert these characters into the game in a way we've seen before with Sabine. Seriously, how many versions of her did we need? How many, then, did we get?

The iconic characters could probably bear to be in the game in one more form, but oversaturation is certainly a thing.

Anyway, bottom line has to be a resounding "no" to the original question. It's just a really bad idea to design a card with the premise "this will crush the meta", regardless of what name is attached. Gameplay> Fluff is a correct concept, and in this case, neither would benefit.

38 minutes ago, DampfGecko said:

The iconic characters could probably bear to be in the game in one more form, but oversaturation is certainly a thing.

This is already the case for a lot of them. Luke, Vader, Han, Chewie, Lando, Boba, Kylo, Rey... the list goes on. They're all both pilot and crew cards. Even some of the EU characters have had this treatment.

46 minutes ago, DampfGecko said:

I want to say yes, in a way, but the only truly manageable way I can fathom this can be done would be to insert these characters into the game in a way we've seen before with Sabine. Seriously, how many versions of her did we need? How many, then, did we get?

The iconic characters could probably bear to be in the game in one more form, but oversaturation is certainly a thing.

Anyway, bottom line has to be a resounding "no" to the original question. It's just a really bad idea to design a card with the premise "this will crush the meta", regardless of what name is attached. Gameplay> Fluff is a correct concept, and in this case, neither would benefit.

I like the idea of just putting more new Luke Skywalker, Darth Vader, Wedge, Chewie, Boba, Lando, and Leia cards into the game. Leave whats there as is, and just print new balanced but appropriately power crept stuff with the A-List names.

And honestly I dont care if they already have 4 cards give em more so they see play. They dont have to be OP. Just need to be relevant.

In this case more is better and doesnt have to automatically mean unbalanced.

27 minutes ago, NakedDex said:

This is already the case for a lot of them. Luke, Vader, Han, Chewie, Lando, Boba, Kylo, Rey... the list goes on. They're all both pilot and crew cards. Even some of the EU characters have had this treatment.

Well, that's just an artifact of how the game plays. Vader can't sit in the Lambda with his TIE in his lap, and it would be stupid to say that since he's a pilot he can never be a passenger.

25 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I like the idea of just putting more new Luke Skywalker, Darth Vader, Wedge, Chewie, Boba, Lando, and Leia cards into the game. Leave whats there as is, and just print new balanced but appropriately power crept stuff with the A-List names.

And honestly I dont care if they already have 4 cards give em more so they see play. They dont have to be OP. Just need to be relevant.

In this case more is better and doesnt have to automatically mean unbalanced.

Agreed. And whether this means a second chassis like Maarek or a new ability like Han, either is fine by me.

33 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I like the idea of just putting more new Luke Skywalker, Darth Vader, Wedge, Chewie, Boba, Lando, and Leia cards into the game. Leave whats there as is, and just print new balanced but appropriately power crept stuff with the A-List names.

And honestly I dont care if they already have 4 cards give em more so they see play. They dont have to be OP. Just need to be relevant.

In this case more is better and doesnt have to automatically mean unbalanced.

In fairness, the only ones out of that list that don't see play are Luke, Wedge, and Leia. Luke and Wedge suffer from being attached to the T65, rather than them being bad pilots. Luke crew is solid, but the price means people either can't afford him over Gunner, or would rather spread the points across multiple other upgrades. Leia is a card that was just meant for Epic, I think.

I don't know the EU, but if Wedge flew anything else that might be less flawed than the X these days, bring him in. Ditto Leia. I have zero issues with that. My problem is just adding in overpowered versions of characters to force them into being relevant at the expense of gameplay and balance. Casual SW fans won't recoginse half of the ships in the game as it stands, nevermind most of the pilots.

3 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Well, that's just an artifact of how the game plays. Vader can't sit in the Lambda with his TIE in his lap, and it would be stupid to say that since he's a pilot he can never be a passenger.

Agreed. And whether this means a second chassis like Maarek or a new ability like Han, either is fine by me.

Oh I'm not saying they should only be a crew OR pilot. I'm just saying that most of the iconic characters do appear more than one form already. I'm not against them getting a new frame at all. I'd be all for Wedge rocking a new ship with the same ability, and giving Leia an ARC/Sabine's TIE treatment in having an old/unique ship brought in (wasn't there a comic where she was flying a Naboo fighter with Shara Bey?).

However, now that you've said that, I can't shake the image of Vader sitting in a big chair in the middle of a Lambda, playing with a toy TIE Advanced, making engine noises and swishing it around. For this, I sincerely thank you.

@NakedDex

Not sure I said anything about making them OP, nothing should be OP or game breaking, not sure how thats even a topic anyone would debate. Nym and Jumpmasters and TLT are outright bad for the game...OP things like that need to be nerfed mercilessly without remorse. What they did to X-7s and Palp was smart, they just need to keep going and stop hesitating with stuff thats clearly to strong.

Some A-List characters on the flip side obviously need updated cards that are more relevant for the current game....they need an appropriate balance of HP, red dice, green dice, dial, and pilot ability. Even if the current OP stuff gets balanced down Luke would need this.

Luke and Leia absolutely need better representation with "playable" meaningful content.

Luke especially....they should give him a pilot card for the T-70...as his character exists in both eras and would be a capable pilot in both. And who cares if its not a T-65, its close enough and a full ship "fix" at this point is less and less viable. Just stick him in the X-Wing that already works and get him on the table tomorrow.

If the only way we can play Luke regularly without getting a full T-65 revamp is to make him a PS9 T-70 pilot with a new pilot skill....then I want that. And i dont care if Wedge is a better pilot, put him ina T-70 to...and let his amazing Pilot Ability differentiate and still make Luke PS9 give him the red carpet treatment. Or keep him PS8 and give him a new action economy pilot skill so he can use Adaptiblty/VI like Vader and still get used. Oh and I want him to be good enough like Poe to not "need" biggs to stay on the table.

Then when they someday buff the T-65 he can fly that to!

TLDR: If Luke or Wedge had T-70 pilot cards I would play them ALL the time.

It honestly sounds to me like you want a game rewrite to buff certain named characters to the point of being ubiquitous in gameplay.

I mean, I'm just speaking as someone with zero attachment to any character in the game or universe, but I don't see any particular need to massively buff someone just because of their name. It's not like we're short of upcoming material to get new pilots/ships from.

I don't disagree that something should be done to improve the standing of ships left behind by the progress of waves, but picking and choosing pilots from them instead of just doing the frame as a whole seems counter productive for anyone but hardcore OT theme fans.

@NakedDex

You actually have zero attachment to Luke Skywalker?

If thats somehow true...I think I understand where you are coming from now. I dont get it. But I do understand.

For my part, this game is most fun when the ships I am using have cool balanced mechanics and scream Star Wars to anyone playing it. I dont see either of those as aspects of the game that should ever be compromised. We pay for both since last time I checked it says Star Wars on every box. And Luke Skywalker is the most Star Wars.

Gameplay should always take precedence over fluff given it's a game and there's more than enough other outlets for star wars

Luke should be buffed because he's a part of the game, and an especially important part since he's one of the (if not THE) first things a new player will use . Most OT things need to be buffed for the sake of variety, both ito having more toys and ito having ships that don't have to swim in upgrades to be effective

But we can't really get any of that given ffg's business model of printing fix cards, sadly

17 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

@NakedDex

You actually have zero attachment to Luke Skywalker?

If thats somehow true...I think I understand where you are coming from now. I dont get it. But I do understand.

For my part, this game is most fun when the ships I am using have cool balanced mechanics and scream Star Wars to anyone playing it. I dont see either of those as aspects of the game that should ever be compromised. We pay for both since last time I checked it says Star Wars on every box. And Luke Skywalker is the most Star Wars.

But that's where things get more complicated. Definitions of what screams Star Wars varys from person to person. I even think someone could call Han Solo the most Star Wars, or Leia. And that's not counting the people who were raised not only on the movies, but also on games, shows, and books. If you gave me the option to either play Luke or a character like Darth Revan, I'm going with Revan. And I'm not saying this as someone who dislikes Luke. I like Luke. Luke is one of the most important characters in the movie series. But to me, the movies are just a part of a large universe.

18 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

@NakedDex

You actually have zero attachment to Luke Skywalker?

If thats somehow true...I think I understand where you are coming from now. I dont get it. But I do understand.

For my part, this game is most fun when the ships I am using have cool balanced mechanics and scream Star Wars to anyone playing it. I dont see either of those as aspects of the game that should ever be compromised. We pay for both since last time I checked it says Star Wars on every box. And Luke Skywalker is the most Star Wars.

I can absolutely understand that. I know I'm in the minority here, but I'm not here for the theme so much as the game. As such, I tend to speak relatively dispassionately about characters, unless it's about ability in game. I do sometimes come off a tad cold to the SW universe, but honestly I can absolutely understand the fandom and attachment; I just don't share it.

For the record, I'm not at all against existing pilots getting new ships or crew options that would give them a new lease of life - if anything, I want to see Wedge in an E-wing and Leia piloting... something... N1? - but from a purely gameplay point of view, I'd be very much against picking pilots and giving them different ship stats because of who they are.

From my point of view, there's two good options:

Pick the ship, give that an adjustment, and raise all the boats with the tide, rather than anchoring the unworthy to the ground.

-or-

Pick the pilots and give them new ships in an ace pack/campaign pack/new expansion.

I'm diggity-down with Wedge rocking an E-wing, Boba in a Protectorate, and Soontir upgrading to a Defender. Build on that Rebel trait of having ships with no generic pilots like the ARC, Phantom, and Sabine's TIE by bringing in Leia and Shara in the N1. Build on the Imperial promotion to better ships like Maarek to the Defender. Build on the fact that there are subfactions within Scum and move Black Sun pilots around other Black Sun ships, and Mandalorians around their ships.

These are all better alternatives to "you get +1 attack because you're super good in the movie".

Oh, and yeah, I'm not even attached to Luke. The best moment of TFA for me was Kylo stabbing Han in the chest. My immediate reaction was "well, at least Harrison finally got what he asked for 40 years ago".

The issue is we don't see Wedge, Luke and Hobbie being fielded nearly as much as they should be due to the fact that FFG Decided to run the name of the game into the mud and give the T-65 the wonderful ability of being unable to stay competitive despite it having some of the most iconic and famous pilots in its cockpit over the years of Star Wars. Its not just a insult to the fans, but the original fluff and gameplay of the game.