Hello,

The objective of this thread is to express immense dissatisfaction due FFG allowing countries to damage such great games like Star Wars Armada. In my humble opinion it’s an important threat for the health of a great game as Armada, to allow a National competition to happen on a weekday, when people is attending to his/her workday jobs/studies, so they are unable to manage a trip to the city where the event takes place.

Spain’s Armada Nationals are scheduled for the 5^th of October in Madrid city (http://www.fantasyflightgames.es/comunidad/ver_evento/1723-star_wars_campeonatos_nacionales). This means an exorbitant cut on participants: only citizens of Madrid have little change to attend. Never think that Armada players in Spain have a little community, it’s the opposite situation: it’s a pretty big one. In Barcelona, for example, I personally know two communities of 35 (more or less) Armada players, each from two local stores; and I think there is another store that I don’t know about in my city, Barcelona… All this uncaring organization negates the “National” concept of the Armada National Tournament, since only local Madrid folks can attend.

Some tried to make them reason on this thread at the country official forums (http://www.fantasyflightgames.es/tema/140993-nacionales_2017), or asking personally, for example, to move the National tournament event to another city or store at a weekend; but seems that for FFG Armada is a low corner menial game.

To sum up, I just want to add that misleading actions like this really shrinks the community for sure, destroys the Armada hobby, and the competitive fair play.

A lot of thanks if you read this, and, please, accept my apologies if you think that’s unappropriated to escalate a local European country concern to America; but, as a said before, this affects a great game that we all share: Star wars Armada.

I'd love these big events to be on weekends as well, but unfortunately I understand why the venues do what they do. Any Armada National invariably has the X-Wing National going at the same time (at least that's how it is in the U.S.). X-Wing takes up so much space and energy that if you want to have an Armada tournament at all, the venue typically has to off set from X-Wing. It sucks, but I understand why venues do it.

Es una mierda, lo sé. Míralo de este modo, a partir del uno de Octubre puede que tengas oportunidad de asistir al torneo nacional de Cataluña! , bromas aparte.

Muchos de nosotros subimos desde Andalucía, de Málaga vamos a intentar ir 5, de Sevilla y Granada es posible que asistan algunos también. Que lo pongan en días laborales nos jode a todos, menos a los madrileños claro. En parte lo entiendo ya que el juego tiene menos visibilidad quizas que X-wing o IA, lo que me sorprende bastante es que den preferencia al Destiniy antes que al Armada. Por no mencionar que tampoco se estan esmerando mucho en organizar el tema de los grupos, emparejamientos, normas, que FAQ's se seguirán y un largo etc.

Nosotros intentaremos ir, esperamos verte alli, aunque sea para cantarle las cuarenta al pobre empleado de FFG que esté dando la cara, si es que lo hay. Cuando vean que somos más de los que creen quizás empiezen a darnos prioridad, pero para eso tenemos que hacernos ver.


It sucks, I know. Look at it this way. Beyond first of October on, you might have the chance to assist to the own Cataluña national tournament. (people in UK will probably relate this joke to Scotland). Jokes aside,

Many of us are comming from Andalucía, 5 from Málaga and several more from Seville and Granada. Being in a working day screws us all, apart from the residents of madrid ofc. I can understand it since Armada has less visibility than X-wing or IA for instance, but I dont understand they priorize Destiny over Armada. Not to mention that they are not putting too much effort in organizing groups, pairings rules, FAQ's in use etc.

Anyhow, we will try to make it to Madrid and we will hope to see you there. At least to yell at the face of the poor FFG employee in charge, if there is any at all. When they realize that we are more than they expected maybe they will start to priorize us in future events.

To be fair, this applies to SWLCG (Thu-Fri) and Imperial Assault (Fri-Sat) as well as Armada (Thu-Fri). Only Destiny gets a full weekend slot (Sat-Sun), although I assume the same was true for the X-Wing nationals?

Pero sí, vaya marrón. El caso es que X-Wing y Destiny venden muchísimo más que Armada, así que es perfectamente normal que tengan prioridad para FFG/Asmodee.

If a store cant hold a National tournament on a weekend then it shouldnt be holding the tournament there...

If there are enough people attending (and at a national then there should be) then raise the cost of the tournament and move the venue to place that can hold every one on a weekend.

In the UK I know of tournaments (we competitions) held at Racetracks for example

So I guess we should call it the "Madrid Store Championships"?

Seriously though, this is the norm past regionals. Many National/World Tournaments (for Armada) take a back seat to the heavy hitters (XWing and now Destiny)

The North American Championship was at Gencon 50 this year on a Thursday for Armada. As many have said, that's normal. I'm not sure what your work situation is like, but I know that Spain isn't really that big compared to the US (about 75% the size of Texas). Could you take a day or two of vacation and simply plan a short trip to Madrid, starting on Wednesday night or very early Thursday morning? That's what most people in the US have to do for Nationals or the North American Championship. Heck, some people travel a pretty good distance and stay overnight for a Regional (which in all fairness is probably the equivalent of a European National in many cases).

1 hour ago, Truthiness said:

I'd love these big events to be on weekends as well, but unfortunately I understand why the venues do what they do. Any Armada National invariably has the X-Wing National going at the same time (at least that's how it is in the U.S.). X-Wing takes up so much space and energy that if you want to have an Armada tournament at all, the venue typically has to off set from X-Wing. It sucks, but I understand why venues do it.

No x-wing. Just Destiny, LCG, IA and Armada.

I have no idea about community size, space and time occupied by the other three but Thursday's afternoon and Friday makes things hard to Armada players.

The funny thing is that the week after we have El Pilar (national holiday) at Thursday what could make things a bit easier for some people.

1 hour ago, Truthiness said:

I'd love these big events to be on weekends as well, but unfortunately I understand why the venues do what they do. Any Armada National invariably has the X-Wing National going at the same time (at least that's how it is in the U.S.). X-Wing takes up so much space and energy that if you want to have an Armada tournament at all, the venue typically has to off set from X-Wing. It sucks, but I understand why venues do it.

Im not agree. I think that they should not call for a National championship then. Besides, they could allow another place to hold the event on a more adecuate day, with a lot more participants. In fact, at least in Barcelona, there are enought people and places to make a really big crowded national Armada competition. By the way, if we talk about sells... I dont see people playing Xwing anymore in my local store. Its called "juego estanteria" (shelf game). Armada is played regulary instead.

14 minutes ago, slasher956 said:

If a store cant hold a National tournament on a weekend then it shouldnt be holding the tournament there...

If there are enough people attending (and at a national then there should be) then raise the cost of the tournament and move the venue to place that can hold every one on a weekend.

In the UK I know of tournaments (we competitions) held at Racetracks for example

That's the point I mean, Im agree with you.

13 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

So I guess we should call it the "Madrid Store Championships"?

Seriously though, this is the norm past regionals. Many National/World Tournaments (for Armada) take a back seat to the heavy hitters (XWing and now Destiny)

As i said before, If we talk about sells... I dont see people playing Xwing anymore in my local store. Its called "juego estanteria" (shelf game). Armada is played regulary instead.

To sum up, Xwing is nice for casual playing and make your game shelf look fantastic... But for sportive competitive playing, Armada is on a superior position (personal opinion here). However, there is plenty of time and places for both games.

Its a shame that great players that I know can't compete due this grieving situation. Some of them could "easily" win the National championship... Its really sad.

So who should they throw under the bus? They have 4 days, 4 games. Undoubtedly, there are quite a few people that play multiple games. If you held all the tournaments on the same day across different locations, you'd hurt the turnout to all of the games. Do you stick IA during the week and have that fan base get upset?

If this was a Armada only event and they stuck it on a Wednesday, you'd have a point.

As for US nationals. If I want to partake at either of the events, I need to travel over 1300 miles. Spain is only 630 miles wide. If I wanted to participate or attend I'd need to take off far more work time and spend way more money than someone like yourself to hit a mid week tournament.

I'm not trying to dismiss you, your complaints, or your opinions on the issue, just trying to put them into perspective. There are other factors at play that you just aren't considering.

As for what you see, that's pretty anecdotal. If you have some actual numbers for sales or players to call upon for Armada, X-wing, Destiny, IA, or the LCG, I'd love to see them. It would make a compelling argument. The human brain has some pretty big issues with confirmation bias though. You don't see X-wing, because you don't participate in X-wing. You see lots of Armada, because you play armada. I go to armada events and see a TON of people playing armada. I don't go to X-wing events so I don't see anyone playing it. My friends that do the same thing confirm my observations. No one plays x-wing ever!

19 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

So who should they throw under the bus? They have 4 days, 4 games. Undoubtedly, there are quite a few people that play multiple games. If you held all the tournaments on the same day across different locations, you'd hurt the turnout to all of the games. Do you stick IA during the week and have that fan base get upset?

If this was a Armada only event and they stuck it on a Wednesday, you'd have a point.

As for US nationals. If I want to partake at either of the events, I need to travel over 1300 miles. Spain is only 630 miles wide. If I wanted to participate or attend I'd need to take off far more work time and spend way more money than someone like yourself to hit a mid week tournament.

I'm not trying to dismiss you, your complaints, or your opinions on the issue, just trying to put them into perspective. There are other factors at play that you just aren't considering.

As for what you see, that's pretty anecdotal. If you have some actual numbers for sales or players to call upon for Armada, X-wing, Destiny, IA, or the LCG, I'd love to see them. It would make a compelling argument. The human brain has some pretty big issues with confirmation bias though. You don't see X-wing, because you don't participate in X-wing. You see lots of Armada, because you play armada. I go to armada events and see a TON of people playing armada. I don't go to X-wing events so I don't see anyone playing it. My friends that do the same thing confirm my observations. No one plays x-wing ever!

Fair enough, complaint is about how everything is being organized. As @ovinomanc3r said they could have just delayed it one more week to match it with a national holyday so none of the game's communities would be harmed. Or separate it into two different weekends in example. Anyway, it's seems that everything is beeing done in a rush, without propper organization and information so the players cannot organize themselves with that little time margin to ask for vacations in their workplaces as you suggested.

2 minutes ago, xerpo said:

Fair enough, complaint is about how everything is being organized. As @ovinomanc3r said they could have just delayed it one more week to match it with a national holyday so none of the game's communities would be harmed. Or separate it into two different weekends in example. Anyway, it's seems that everything is beeing done in a rush, without propper organization and information so the players cannot organize themselves with that little time margin to ask for vacations in their workplaces as you suggested.

There are so many things to consider when organizing large events. National holiday sounds good. But in the US at least, a long weekend usually means massive amounts of family vacations that are planned long in advance. You'd probably get lower turnouts in parts of the US if it was done during a holiday. Holidays typically mean a hefty price hike on things like hotels and car rentals. Mid week rates are far lower to due to lower demand.

On top of that, the venue may have other obligations during that time, or there may be other events on other weekends making lodging and such difficult. FFG isn't the only organization doing events afterall.

Then again, maybe FFG just forced dates upon places to work with their schedule so they could have representatives there in a way that worked for them. Even so, there again may be reasons for these dates.

All in all, there is no perfect date where someone isn't going to be upset. For everyone upset about it being on a weekday there is probably someone who'd be upset if it was on the weekend.

28 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

So who should they throw under the bus? They have 4 days, 4 games. Undoubtedly, there are quite a few people that play multiple games. If you held all the tournaments on the same day across different locations, you'd hurt the turnout to all of the games. Do you stick IA during the week and have that fan base get upset?

If this was a Armada only event and they stuck it on a Wednesday, you'd have a point.

As for US nationals. If I want to partake at either of the events, I need to travel over 1300 miles. Spain is only 630 miles wide. If I wanted to participate or attend I'd need to take off far more work time and spend way more money than someone like yourself to hit a mid week tournament.

I'm not trying to dismiss you, your complaints, or your opinions on the issue, just trying to put them into perspective. There are other factors at play that you just aren't considering.

As for what you see, that's pretty anecdotal. If you have some actual numbers for sales or players to call upon for Armada, X-wing, Destiny, IA, or the LCG, I'd love to see them. It would make a compelling argument. The human brain has some pretty big issues with confirmation bias though. You don't see X-wing, because you don't participate in X-wing. You see lots of Armada, because you play armada. I go to armada events and see a TON of people playing armada. I don't go to X-wing events so I don't see anyone playing it. My friends that do the same thing confirm my observations. No one plays x-wing ever!

I understand, respect, and appreciate your perspective. I'm just not agree with you, and I think that how this event are held, at least in Spain, is bad for our Armada community. About the comments about "brain" tricks, sells, and other xwing references: As i said, Im talking about my local store , so , at least, on that store, Xwing is a "shelf game". Armada is played more, xwing almost zero nowadays. By the way, Im on the xwing group also, Its not my imagination I cant show you numbers and other stuff, maybe someone could help in that regard. However, this thread is just this, a simple complain...

To be honest I wouldnt mind a weekday tournament anbd would book the time off work or hope its on a wednesday when i'm off anyway.

I have two kids and on weekends i am normally busy with family and running them around. A weekday tournament would 'only' mean taking time off work.

42 minutes ago, Corver said:

To be honest I wouldnt mind a weekday tournament anbd would book the time off work or hope its on a wednesday when i'm off anyway.

I have two kids and on weekends i am normally busy with family and running them around. A weekday tournament would 'only' mean taking time off work.

The labour situations in the Netherlands and in Spain are extremely different, though. Taking a day off to play a game can be very, very hard to pull off there, let alone justify. It's especially difficult at such short notice - this being a huge part of @Jagged's complaint.

i feel you, here in Canada our Nationals in 2015 and 2016 where at a convention and it really pushed people away, it would seem in the US people like tournaments at big Cons but up here ppl tended to have the opposite reaction, we didn't like paying inflated prices to attend something we weren't really taking advantage of, i hope your situation gets handled properly, you should not be punished because there are other games to accomadate.

I will say, from a US perspective, the talk of just taking a day off is out of sync with reality regarding part time workers. If you work on an hourly basis your schedule is often made weeks in advance and requests for specific times off is more or less laughed at(unless you have children and the manager likes you).

tournament on a weekday? Yeah...

"Hey boss, I need a day off on thursday"

"Why?"

"Well, there's you know, a tournament for..... a table top game"

"Hm... no"

1 minute ago, DiabloAzul said:

The labour situations in the Netherlands and in Spain are extremely different, though. Taking a day off to play a game can be very, very hard to pull off there, let alone justify. It's especially difficult at such short notice - this being a huge part of @Jagged's complaint.

Totally agree with you. A national organized with a couple of weeks in advance... Another point is that I did not focus about the rush organitzation when I started the thread... Instead I focused on what what "I" though was more gruesome. For us take two days off to play Armada its a divorce.

4 hours ago, Jagged said:

I understand, respect, and appreciate your perspective. I'm just not agree with you, and I think that how this event are held, at least in Spain, is bad for our Armada community. About the comments about "brain" tricks, sells, and other xwing references: As i said, Im talking about my local store , so , at least, on that store, Xwing is a "shelf game". Armada is played more, xwing almost zero nowadays. By the way, Im on the xwing group also, Its not my imagination I cant show you numbers and other stuff, maybe someone could help in that regard. However, this thread is just this, a simple complain...

I'm not arguing at all with it being bad for the Armada community. It may not be the best for you or your community. But again, who do you replace and how is that good for them? They are serving 4 different games at this tournament. Which one do you swap? Maybe the weekday format was chosen for Armada for a very specific reason. Perhaps if they held IA during the week they wouldn't have enough players, where as they might have too many for Armada if it was on the weekend. Maybe the success is the reason it's on the weekday.

As for X-wing vs Armada, you are using an anecdote from 1 store. That's not a very good way to determine popularity.

As for time off, that's less of a national thing than an employer thing. I've known many people that work for places that even with a months notice, they can't get time off. But I've been employed for over a decade with a company that doesn't ask why I want the time off, I don't need to justify it, and as long as I ask for the time off at least a couple minutes before it's needed, I'm ok. Again, what works for 1 person is not how it works on the whole for everyone else.

As for short notice. There really isn't a good reason for that. Something this big should have adequate notice. However I don't know when this was announced. It is nearly a month away which for something like this should be a bare minimum. 2-3 seems more adequate.

5 hours ago, KrisWall said:

The North American Championship was at Gencon 50 this year on a Thursday for Armada. As many have said, that's normal. I'm not sure what your work situation is like, but I know that Spain isn't really that big compared to the US (about 75% the size of Texas). Could you take a day or two of vacation and simply plan a short trip to Madrid, starting on Wednesday night or very early Thursday morning? That's what most people in the US have to do for Nationals or the North American Championship. Heck, some people travel a pretty good distance and stay overnight for a Regional (which in all fairness is probably the equivalent of a European National in many cases).

And as a result overall attendance for Armada at GenCon was half what it was last year. Also at NOVA, they had to change the cut scoring system because the player count from Thursday to Friday was so unbalanced. By sheer chance, it ended up being the top 4 for both days am twas, which meant you were mathematically far more likely to get in if you showed up on Thursday.

25 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

And as a result overall attendance for Armada at GenCon was half what it was last year. Also at NOVA, they had to change the cut scoring system because the player count from Thursday to Friday was so unbalanced. By sheer chance, it ended up being the top 4 for both days am twas, which meant you were mathematically far more likely to get in if you showed up on Thursday.

First, a disclaimer: I am not an FFG employee, nor have I ever played one on TV.

Second: That's not accurate, at least as far as GenCon goes. This year, Swiss was on the Thursday with the top 4 cut on the Friday. Last year, there were two different days of Swiss (the Thursday and the Friday), with top 16 being on the Saturday. I think perhaps knocking the Swiss down to one day was far more detrimental than the fact the cut was on Friday instead of Saturday. Two years ago, I believe it was on a Saturday (the inaugural Gencon for Armada).

Also detrimental was the FFG focus on L5R to the exclusion of almost every other organized play event, with the exception of SW:Destiny. As an aside, the L5R opening ceremonies were the most cringy thing I have ever seen at GenCon; they were going on at the same time as the Armada tourney, and (to me, at least) they were frighteningly embarrassing. But anyway...

Third, I believe the problem is that Organized Play (OP) for FFG is a necessary evil: if they thought they could get away with never having to run a tournament themselves, ever again, I bet they would. It costs them money and their already over-worked employees now have to do even more. FFG seems to use OP to advertise its latest, greatest attraction: as I said above, this year L5R and Destiny, other years AGoT 2.0, Conquest, X-Wing, Armada, etc., etc., etc.

Don't get me wrong, though, I love FFG tournaments (I wish there were more here around Ottawa), I just wish FFG OP got more financial support (including dedicated employees). Those are my thoughts on the matter, anyway.

Oh, and as one final thought, Armada at Canadian Nationals this year is on a Sunday... but it's capped at 28 participants. So weekend dates are not always the best.

1 hour ago, Paindemic7708 said:

First, a disclaimer: I am not an FFG employee, nor have I ever played one on TV.

Second: That's not accurate, at least as far as GenCon goes. This year, Swiss was on the Thursday with the top 4 cut on the Friday. Last year, there were two different days of Swiss (the Thursday and the Friday), with top 16 being on the Saturday. I think perhaps knocking the Swiss down to one day was far more detrimental than the fact the cut was on Friday instead of Saturday. Two years ago, I believe it was on a Saturday (the inaugural Gencon for Armada).

Also detrimental was the FFG focus on L5R to the exclusion of almost every other organized play event, with the exception of SW:Destiny. As an aside, the L5R opening ceremonies were the most cringy thing I have ever seen at GenCon; they were going on at the same time as the Armada tourney, and (to me, at least) they were frighteningly embarrassing. But anyway...

Third, I believe the problem is that Organized Play (OP) for FFG is a necessary evil: if they thought they could get away with never having to run a tournament themselves, ever again, I bet they would. It costs them money and their already over-worked employees now have to do even more. FFG seems to use OP to advertise its latest, greatest attraction: as I said above, this year L5R and Destiny, other years AGoT 2.0, Conquest, X-Wing, Armada, etc., etc., etc.

Don't get me wrong, though, I love FFG tournaments (I wish there were more here around Ottawa), I just wish FFG OP got more financial support (including dedicated employees). Those are my thoughts on the matter, anyway.

Oh, and as one final thought, Armada at Canadian Nationals this year is on a Sunday... but it's capped at 28 participants. So weekend dates are not always the best.

The cut being on Friday or Saturday isn't the issue. The Swiss rounds being in a weekday drastically reduces the number of people who can attend. At GenCon 2016, there were almost 50 players in day two alone. Swiss rounds need to be either on a weekend, or a Friday if it's going to be a single day of Swiss. If they're concerned about cutting into X-Wing attendance, they should have armada swiss during the X-wing cut to maximize attendance for both games.

And being capped at 28 players indicates that the venue is inappropriate. They should be able to run at least 20 tables for a national tournament in a country that's dominating the tournament scene.

not every one has Saturday and Sunday as their weekend. scheduling Tournaments for Saturday / Sunday only leaves a lot of people unable to attend let alone compete,

9 minutes ago, solaria said:

not every one has Saturday and Sunday as their weekend. scheduling Tournaments for Saturday / Sunday only leaves a lot of people unable to attend let alone compete,

No, but it generally is a matter of numbers.

Its more likely to allow people, than to disallow.

Not to say it doesn't disallow people.

Only that it disallows the lesser.