44 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

The Shuttle Kylo is good, but his ability doesn't suit a small, low health compared to whats about ship. The whole point of an Arc Dodger is not being hit/shot at, to put an ability that requires you to be hit on a ship that doesn't want to be hit is redundant and crazy.

Kinda? It means you get less use out of the ability than, say, Vader. Sure. But "I'm hard to hit and if you do hit me enjoy the dark side" isn't necessarily bad. It also means it's harder to switch the dark side around with a crappy ship. It's not amazing at all. But alongside RAC, for example, it's potentially pretty neat especially since it frees up a crew slot and an action. Less reliable as a result yes.

I had a thought. Put Sensor Jammer on Kylo and Hotcop on VI RAC and Kylo could get an effective free evade that way.

It would have been cooler and better if they made his condition trigger if he hits with an attack instead of being hit. It would give it more of an aggressive flavor and at PS 9 it would be a much more brutal ability.

I am pretty sure I like this ship.im just not yet clear how it doesn't get blown to **** by dengar or bombed into rubble in two turns.

4 hours ago, The Inquisitor said:

I had a thought. Put Sensor Jammer on Kylo and Hotcop on VI RAC and Kylo could get an effective free evade that way.

That's not free. That's an 8pt combo spread across two moving parts, that allows your opponent to dictate your targeting priority to you.

Plus, if I'm bringing RAC, why on earth would I not just put the objectively superior Kylo crew on him and take a better wingman option for the Decimator like Vader, Quickdraw or if you want to go oldschool and your local meta supports it: Whisper?

I mean what does the Kylencer do on the table that isn't better done for less? By HIMSELF in the crew slot no less! If I want a small ship that people don't want to attack, I take Rebel Captive on Whisper. But I wont because there's a lot of PS10 in the Meta right now and VI ATC Vader works better.

But if you're up against Fairship lists, what is Kylo going to do against them? Lower PS than him so they get a turn to make sure the affected model is inside Bigg's bubble and soak damage like they do. Maybe he has a new card that's going to let him deal with bombs, maybe the FAQ is going to come and make everything right, but maybe it wont.

This is the literal $40 question: What does Kylo Ren bring that isn't better served elsewhere for cheaper?

7 minutes ago, Mward1984 said:

This is the literal $40 question: What does Kylo Ren bring that isn't better served elsewhere for cheaper?

A cool new ship to fly with a high pilot skill, 6 health, elite pilot talent, and the combination of systems and tech slot.

If we're just looking objectively at the ship...

@Mward1984

Thats simple for me....he can PTL/Advanced Sensors and has both a boost and a barrel roll, autothrusters, native situational predator, and one time green dice rerolls.

In a TLT and turret heavy game Kylo at PS9 that seems like its going to be legitametly tanky. Its gonna take some focus fire to kill him at least.

Isnt he at minimum harder to kill than QD?

Sure lots of things can kill the Silencer....this isnt a rebel or scum ship.

But this genuinely seems like an Interceptor with 3 more hp, a system and tech upgrade, and some new titles.

Sure it wants the evade action to be comparable, palp helps there. Maybe that hidden ept will be more broken then just if your near debris take 1 evade.

13 minutes ago, Mward1984 said:

That's not free. That's an 8pt combo spread across two moving parts, that allows your opponent to dictate your targeting priority to you.

Right. But I've played around with Guri+SJ with Palob and it's really quite annoying, at least until Palob just bites it as he always does. RAC should stick around a bit longer. Considering that was a pre-fix StarViper it did okay for me, I reckon Kylo looks a lot better. And yeah it's pricey but hotcop + gunner + VI isn't bad on RAC anyway. It should be enough to keep fire focussed on RAC with the endgame idea that Kylo likes to take people on one-on-one.

What does Kylo do that no one else does? PS9 Advanced Sensors + PTL with (hopefully) a dial full of green. Otherwise it looks pretty similar to the phantom but able to take a punch without folding.

15 hours ago, ModernPenguin said:

To the people comparing this silencer to the regular old interceptor.
Kylo ren is 7 points more expensive than soontir fel.
For that you get 1 hull, 2 shields, a systems slot and a techslot.

System slot and tech slot are very good options to have, but it means the overall point cost becomes even higher, otherwise you're not exploiting them (barring one Collision Detector), and if you're not exploiting them, then you're exactly in the same spot of an Interceptor that can't exploit them. So the more correct comparison is saying that, compared to Soontir Fel, 35-pt. Kylo Ren has +1 hull, +2 shields, -1 agility, -1 action, -1 free focus per turn, and -1 chance of turning a blank into evade at range 3 or outside arc.

11 minutes ago, Kumagoro said:

System slot and tech slot are very good options to have, but it means the overall point cost becomes even higher, otherwise you're not exploiting them (barring one Collision Detector), and if you're not exploiting them, then you're exactly in the same spot of an Interceptor that can't exploit them. So the more correct comparison is saying that, compared to Soontir Fel, 35-pt. Kylo Ren has +1 hull, +2 shields, -1 agility, -1 action, -1 free focus per turn, and -1 chance of turning a blank into evade at range 3 or outside arc.

This is factual, but not really relevant, because in modern X-wing, the upgrades make this ship. A fairer comparison would be Soontir+10 points on another ship vs Kylo, which is a vastly more difficult question, because it gets into questions of listbuilding.

I'm pretty much alone in this school of thought, but I don't really rate highly granular efficiency calculations. I'm more interested in what a ship can and can't do. Compared to 34 point Fel (which I love to fly), Kylo (PTL/AS) adds autodamage resistance due to double hit points, has vastly superior maneuverability, doesn't lose actions from blocking, and doesn't carry stress around. Fel remains better at stacking tokens and just not getting hit. It depends on what you want in a squad.

On 9/14/2017 at 8:37 PM, Boom Owl said:

Or better Kylo version

Kylo Ren (TIE Silencer) — TIE Silencer	35
Push the Limit	3
Advanced Sensors	3
First Order Vanguard	2
Ship Total: 43
Captain Oicunn — VT-49 Decimator	42
Adaptability	0
Emperor Palpatine	8
Rebel Captive	3
Engine Upgrade	4
Ship Total: 57

I always like to hold judgment until playing it in the table.

I flew a raging Ryad ion Tie/d with Oicunn inspiring recruit + at Endor Open. Wargaming if she was PS9 with two actions while not stressed, otherwise just adding AutoThrusters and I am not getting a warm fuzzy.

some are saying it is the best thing since sliced bread and I just don't get it. Only combo that even sounds decent is advanced sensors PTL. But no evade? Geez.

This thing should have had evade or two more shields. Without an insane dial this sees no play.

Better not **** up the Gunboat FFG. You've stretched our patience thin over the last several waves.

5 hours ago, Biophysical said:

This is factual, but not really relevant, because in modern X-wing, the upgrades make this ship. A fairer comparison would be Soontir+10 points on another ship vs Kylo, which is a vastly more difficult question, because it gets into questions of listbuilding.

I'm pretty much alone in this school of thought, but I don't really rate highly granular efficiency calculations. I'm more interested in what a ship can and can't do. Compared to 34 point Fel (which I love to fly), Kylo (PTL/AS) adds autodamage resistance due to double hit points, has vastly superior maneuverability, doesn't lose actions from blocking, and doesn't carry stress around. Fel remains better at stacking tokens and just not getting hit. It depends on what you want in a squad.

I get your point, but I don't think I find it entirely meaningful. It's like, how do they both compare to a Decimator then? Does this question even make any sense? Silencer Kylo equals to Soontir + one Academy Pilot. So what's "better", a Decimator or 5 Academy Pilots? Sure, you can compare a list that's made of one 60-point Decimator with a list that's made of 5 Academy Pilots, and establish which list is the more efficient. But in doing so you're not also comparing the Decimator to the TIE Fighter in a vacuum, which is pointless.

Ultimately, the only true point of comparison a ship has is the points it costs. Soontir Fel (PTL/AT/SD) is certainly worth 35 points. Is Kylo Ren (PTL/AS/PA/AT/title) worth 47? Within the frame of reference of 100/6, of course, because in Epic play, the answer could become entirely different. So again, it's all relative. But in 100/6, that Kylo Ren is almost half the list. Is he worth that?

1 hour ago, HolySorcerer said:

This thing should have had evade or two more shields. Without an insane dial this sees no play.

I don't know what such insane dial would have to look like, though. I mean, it will certainly be a great dial, but to make the difference compared to an Interceptor dial or an Adv. Prototype dial, what could it add, green K-turns? (Would the Silencer even care having green K-turns? You don't need K-turns when flying an Interceptor or Phantom).

The thing about Kylo's Silencer, and the Silencer in general, is: it's a great ship that's however an expensive ship that takes up almost half the list at 100/6. Because it's great that it can take Advanced Sensors, so you have to give it Advanced Sensors. But then you have to give it PTL to exploit AS. But then you have to give it Pattern Analyzer to combo with PTL. But then how could you not give Authothrusters to any ship that can take it? And how could you not give such an expensive ship its title, which guarantees one saving throw against death? And before you know it, you have invested 47 points in this chain of "how could you not", and every point makes sense and makes the ship stronger and more efficient.

So you either build the list with Kylo plus a couple of smaller ships, but then the opponent will just hunt him down first thing, or with Kylo paired with one other equally high-profile ship, but which one? It even steals point from RAC (only 7 free points remain, so not even Palp is an option), making it again not really a choice which one to hunt down first, especially if you gave Rebel Captive to RAC.

And would such a build exploit Kylo's ability at all? Would it have enough damage output? It'd basically be a straightforward list with no tricks, say RAC with EU and Predator, so consistently scoring 3 hits, and Kylo doing the same, and they move around well and choose their targets freely, but is it enough? Wouldn't it be inferior to a list where fat RAC with Kylo crew is paired with Whisper or Quickdraw/Backdraft?

5 hours ago, Kumagoro said:

I get your point, but I don't think I find it entirely meaningful. It's like, how do they both compare to a Decimator then? Does this question even make any sense? Silencer Kylo equals to Soontir + one Academy Pilot. So what's "better", a Decimator or 5 Academy Pilots? Sure, you can compare a list that's made of one 60-point Decimator with a list that's made of 5 Academy Pilots, and establish which list is the more efficient. But in doing so you're not also comparing the Decimator to the TIE Fighter in a vacuum, which is pointless.

Ultimately, the only true point of comparison a ship has is the points it costs. Soontir Fel (PTL/AT/SD) is certainly worth 35 points. Is Kylo Ren (PTL/AS/PA/AT/title) worth 47? Within the frame of reference of 100/6, of course, because in Epic play, the answer could become entirely different. So again, it's all relative. But in 100/6, that Kylo Ren is almost half the list. Is he worth that?

I think we agree on this actually, in that this sort of comparison is complex and not readily obvious.

Looking at just one ship vs the other, I think there's still a strong argument that Kylo is worth the points, but it depends heavily on playstyle assumptions.

Defensively, I think Kylo is roughly equivalent to Fel, he has more HP, and more ways to avoid arcs, but lacks the Evade and extra Focus tokens. This makes Kylo more durable to current meta powerhouses, but less durable against some other things. For the sake of argument I'll call it equal.

Offensively I think he'll be way higher than Fel for several reasons. With the extra hit points and the title, you can gamble harder on good shots. With the additional maneuverability and likely S-loops and the fact that he doesn't carry stress from turn to turn, Kylo will have a much higher time on target. With intrinsic re-rolls, he'll hit much harder. I could see this ship taking 50% more shots than Fel, and they'll be better shots. I think the 50% damage over time increase is a reasonable estimate, but others can disagree.

So is 50% more damage over time and a similar, but less swingy defensive profile (that suits the current meta better) worth 12 points more? Without testing, we can't give it a definitive yes, but the chances are good, in my opinion.

35 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I think we agree on this actually, in that this sort of comparison is complex and not readily obvious.

Looking at just one ship vs the other, I think there's still a strong argument that Kylo is worth the points, but it depends heavily on playstyle assumptions.

Defensively, I think Kylo is roughly equivalent to Fel, he has more HP, and more ways to avoid arcs, but lacks the Evade and extra Focus tokens. This makes Kylo more durable to current meta powerhouses, but less durable against some other things. For the sake of argument I'll call it equal.

Offensively I think he'll be way higher than Fel for several reasons. With the extra hit points and the title, you can gamble harder on good shots. With the additional maneuverability and likely S-loops and the fact that he doesn't carry stress from turn to turn, Kylo will have a much higher time on target. With intrinsic re-rolls, he'll hit much harder. I could see this ship taking 50% more shots than Fel, and they'll be better shots. I think the 50% damage over time increase is a reasonable estimate, but others can disagree.

So is 50% more damage over time and a similar, but less swingy defensive profile (that suits the current meta better) worth 12 points more? Without testing, we can't give it a definitive yes, but the chances are good, in my opinion.

I agree with that.

And I think that his ability is actually better into the Silencer than in the batwing.

Just got in a vassal game with Kylo+Palp-coon vs Thweek, Talonbane and Victor, with Kylo being given inititive. Talonbane and victor had vectored thrusters in their builds.

Got a great engage, catching thweek at range 2 from kylo, and all other ships out of range (Oicoon took the long way around, wasnt quite there yet) and slipped a crit past thweek's shields, which happened to be a blinded pilot. (I still had a focus and palp for defence, so I wasnt really worried)

The next turn a boost/barrel roll/5 straight cleared everyone's fire arcs except the slooping starviper, and thweek dropped a 4 die proton torpedo at range 3 at a focusless kylo. a roll of evade/eye/eye was entirely unsatisfactory, so I burned my title- got blank/evade/eye, which at least let me autothruster to take the crits on shields. Oicoon also poked talonbane's shield off in exchange for 2 of his own from victor.

Third turn was Oicoons great sacrifice, diving into a 3 ship short range ambush, tanking everything they could put out, uncluding structural damage and a console fire, and dropping Thweek's remaining hull in 1 shot (activating kylo's damaged cockpit condition on the dead guy)

Another 2 turns of Kylo dancing with talonbane, talonbane just barely escaping fire arcs, while Oicoon rams+ shoots victor, with one long range potshot from kylo. (who broke victor's stealth) On the second turn oicoon was able to ram victor to death, while ignoring the console fire at 2 hull.

The rest of the game was talonbane trying to stay away from a kylo who moved before him, while palp-coon fled to the far side of the board. Eventually Talonbane managed to get his stress cleared and a target lock on kylo, and threw down a kturn for a shot. His 4 green dice betrayed him, but his cruiz missile maxxed out 5 dice, with a crit from chips and crackshot, and Kylo's palp+thrusters let him survive, with a blinded pilot, and handing out the other damaged cockpit.

Being lower PS isnt a game breaker when you can boost+barrel roll before your maneuver, while already stressed. I was using the FO dial for kylo, but since I never slooped it was actually inferior to a regular interceptor dial, without the green 4.

Jeez...it's Oicunn...

I've been playing around with the pre-Silencer too @Rakaydos, and it's not a case that the new Kylo is DOA, it clearly isn't, it's simply not OP as many have found. The meta now doesn't allow Aces, even amazing flying ones; his damage output is very average. Sad thing is, having a fun, high-cost, cool looking, balanced ship just doesn't cut it. Without a massive nerfing FAQ for the rest of the existing OP, the Silencer will get the basic same tournament results as the Upsilon, nothing more. This beauty is an "almost" or "what could have been" IMO.

....I hope I'm wrong.

I can't wait for there to be a scene in TLJ where Kylo is struggling to get a TL on Poe, and after some cleaver maneuvering deploys two missiles on his six, shooting Poe down in a dramatic moment. All the post movie discussion will be on Poe's efforts to dodge these missiles, weaving through rocks trying to lose them, as they slowly creep closer right up until they explode, with Poe ejecting BB-8 right before impact, saving the droid from certain destruction, even at the cost of his own life. The discussion the next day at X-Wing HQ would be priceless.

On 9/16/2017 at 1:39 PM, Biophysical said:

Offensively I think he'll be way higher than Fel for several reasons. With the extra hit points and the title, you can gamble harder on good shots. With the additional maneuverability and likely S-loops and the fact that he doesn't carry stress from turn to turn, Kylo will have a much higher time on target. With intrinsic re-rolls, he'll hit much harder. I could see this ship taking 50% more shots than Fel, and they'll be better shots. I think the 50% damage over time increase is a reasonable estimate, but others can disagree.

I certainly disagree. First of all, you seem to think Fel's three hull made him timid. Before the bomb meta, nothing was more far from the truth. Fel would keep turning into his target, chasing it like a dog with a bone, and laughing off turret shots. Carry stress? Not even close, once he was close enough, he would dial green every single turn, do his two actions, turtling in the process. The thing is, Fel has one more action than Kylo. That's 50% more action efficiency. I don't think this could be offset by any other trick. Fel has 4 agility and constant focus, which means his green dice's math actually offsets the bonus hull and shields, for anything but auto-damage. One consistently modified point agility is worth several sitting-duck points of hull/shields. A TIE Bomber has double the Interceptor's hull, yet it's way, way more fragile.

Soontir Fel flown well could last the entire game without taking a single hit, and certainly could be expected to land shots almost every turn. We're not talking an underdog, rarely seen ships here; we're talking a top tier one. There was a reason for that.

On 9/16/2017 at 8:29 AM, Kumagoro said:

So you either build the list with Kylo plus a couple of smaller ships, but then the opponent will just hunt him down first thing, or with Kylo paired with one other equally high-profile ship, but which one? It even steals point from RAC (only 7 free points remain, so not even Palp is an option), making it again not really a choice which one to hunt down first, especially if you gave Rebel Captive to RAC.

I want to elaborate further on this, because maybe there is a list where a 47-point Fat Kylo could be at home. I established you'll need one other similarly scary ship to take some heat off him, right? What about Vessery with Expertise, TIE/D, Tractor Beam, and Twin Ion Engine? That's 41 pts, which leaves enough room for an Academy Pilot as a blocker. (Or you can drop the Engine and convert Advanced Sensors into the more Vessery-friendly FCS, in order to turn AP into Wampa, although I'm not really a fan of Palp-less Wampa, that's not a strategy, it's randomly hoping for the best). I hardly think it could be a competitive list in the meta, but it doesn't look bad, does it?

Or for the same points you can go with Backdraft with Expertise, FCS, Pattern Analyzer, LWF, Harpoon Missile, and title. (Or Quickdraw without PA). That's also a good wingmate for Kylo. And if you drop the missile and PA, the TIE Fighter can get upgraded to an Omega Squadron Pilot with Crack Shot, becoming an all First Order squad!

On 9/15/2017 at 11:30 PM, Derpzilla88 said:

A cool new ship to fly with a high pilot skill, 6 health, elite pilot talent, and the combination of systems and tech slot.

If we're just looking objectively at the ship...

Sooo... Quickdraw then?

The real answer is 'authothrusters'.

8 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Sooo... Quickdraw then?

The real answer is 'authothrusters'.

Indeed. A good point of comparison is Quickdraw, who is unarguably 'a good ship'.

What does Quickdraw (lightweight frame) have that Kylo (autothrusters) won't?

• An extra shield
• 6 points of stuff somewhere in your list (most likely a cruise missile!).
• 1-2 extra shots during the game. (0 and 3 are both possible but fairly unlikely).
• 2-die rear arc potshots if you have a target they can hurt (which I guess is more common with the agility 1 superheavy fighter crowd)

What does Kylo (autothrusters) have Quickdraw (lightweight frame) that won't?

• A much better green dial
• A much better white dial
• I'll show you the dark side if you have a means to readily generate criticals
• Much harder to hit at range 3 - a bonus die plus autothrusters

Essentially, Quickdraw is much shootier, but less tanky against evadable attacks.

A missile slot, which is pretty crucial right now. That and being 6 frigging points cheaper.

The extra attacks are also very much not to be sniffed at.