I have core game with zealot and skaven packs and I can't seem to even find this card ' Iron Discipline ' . Noob question here but what deck is this from ?

Tooth and Claw BP (the 3rd BP).

Cheers ! I actually just ordered that pack last night . Should take a week .

Clamatius said:

That means that the card needs an errata.The word "action" in the cards text should be " Action: ".

Clamatius said:

This is illogical. Playing a support is an action. The other player has the right to play an action in response. Wether the response has any effect at all is irrelevant.

You play Choppa. I play Iron Discipline in response. The chain is resolved and Choppa is attached. The fact that Iron Discipline doesn't have any effect in this particular situation doesn't mean that I am deprived of the right to play it.

James messed this one up.

Dystopian said:

Playing a Unit or Support isn't an Action in itself IIRC, though they count as an Action (so oppo can respond as if to an Action).

I think this is easy to clear up for now, but may become more difficult later depending on cards that are printed. The 'action' that is the act of playing a card does not target ever, it is just a "motion" that a player is taking. It is synonomous with "playing a card" or "making/taking a move". The card played may target, but that is irrelevant as you are then looking at card text for an effect that says "action" and that is what Iron Discipline can stop.

I think it is a poor choice to have two separate things have the same name as it will cause confusion. Due to cards already being printed with the word "Action" on them, and other cards refering to that, I think it would be easier to just change the terminology of the rules for play.

Dam said:

So, we agree. I can respond with Iron Discipline to Choppa. I don't care that it doesn't interact, I still can play it.

If you go back to James post, he seems to say that I can't play it.

Dystopian said:

Actually, we don't . Yes, you can respond to the playing of an Unit/Support as though it were an Action, but ID only works on cards that have the "Action:" trigger on them (that also target). Playing a Unit/Support doesn't have "Action:" trigger in them, they merely count as taking an Action. You can respond to an opponent playing a Unit by say Lobber Crew's Action, but ID has a more specific wording on what it can work against.

Yes, we do. Is it so hard to understand that I don't give a **** if ID does anything in this particular situation? I want to play it and waste it. My loss. End of story.

What I am trying to say is that James (accidentally?) wrote that YOU CAN'T EVEN PLAY IT.

Dam said:

Iron Discipline may have "specific wording" to describe what it can work against, but it doesn't have specific wording to limit what it can be played "in response" to. So Dystopian's right that there's something fishy about James's response.

I suspect the problem is the wording in the question James was asked: He was asked if Iron Discipline can be played in response to Choppa being "attached," not "played." That wording caused James to focus on the card text "Attach to a target unit in your battlefield" instead of the action of playing Choppa from hand. So I think the point he was trying to make is that you can't play a response to card text that doesn't have the Action: trigger. That wasn't a clarification we needed, but you can see how his mind may have gone there from the way the question was asked.

I agree there are many aspects of this game that need further decription on the cards or in the rules, i can see also why they have given the verdict they have. So the supporting card attaching the unit card is either:-

1) A action by the unit

2) A action by the supporting card

3) An action by both the unit and the supporting card

I guess they are saying its 2) but to use the supporting card would be 3) (with the unit having to pay the 4 resources.

I could be wrong, this issue to be debated further.

"all is in the eye of the beholder"

YN

To Summarize, I think we all agree that what James should have said was:

1. Iron Discipline's effect only applies to card effects that result from an Action: and target the unit that has ID played on it.

2. In the specific example of Choppa being played by opponent on his unit, you could play ID as a response. If you happened to choose the opponent unit that was receiving the Choppa, ID would not cause your opponent to pay any more resources since Choppa's effect is not an Action .

This goes to something I've said before. Ask a specific question get a specific answer. When you send questions in ask the general question and ask for an explanation of the answer and then provide specific instances and ask how the answer would be applied to that situation.

In ID's case it probably would have been better worded as, "Iron Discipline reads 'X', how does this interact with the action chain? Can it be played in response to a card being played from hand? If so how does it effect something like Choppa which reads, 'Y'?"

Playing a card is considered taking an action but it is not a triggered effect. I know that after your opponent takes an action you may take an action, but I believe the only thing that can be responded to with effects are other effects. Meaning ID could only be played in response to something with a bold timing trigger. I'll have to look through the rules again to verify this.

@Yaminnoire - nothing but players take actions in this game. I as an action can trigger a unit or supports ability, but it is a player action. Units and Supports may have Forced Effects, but they are not actions.

dormouse said:

it happened...waiting for the numerous threads lol

RexGator said:

This is the best explanation. Plenty simple enough.

So does Iron Discipline does work for :

#33 Mind Killer (Dark Elf Support) 0-DD

Attachment. Hex.

Attach to a target unit.

Attached unit loses one power.

I would say no after reading the this topic, but i am still wondering !

You are rigth, it is the same case that for choppa, there is not the "bolded" action writen on the card, as James said.

Hi everybody,

I have a question about Iron Discipline, too. It is possible to target a unit in the discard pile with ID to counter "Stand your ground"? Is a unit in the discard plie a legal target?

P.S.: Sorry for my bad english.

Freischärler said:

Not unless specifically allowed by card text, like Stand Your Ground.

Only cards in play can ever be targeted unless the effect specifically names an out of play area (your and your opponent's deck, hand or discard pile are all out of play).

dormouse said:

ok. Thanks for the explanation.

How about we would rule the whole action is not ACTION: thing like in Legend of the Five Rings. In L5R there are Actions from Action Cards and there are Rulebook Actions (Actions granted to a player by the rulebook). As attaching something to a unit is an action granted by the rulebook it could be considered a Rulebook Action and in the other case the action taken could be considered Card Action. Due to this different terminology both action-types could clearly be divided from one another.

just my 2 cents

I'm sorry, are we trying to make the game more or less confusing?

RM

Technically that is already the way it is.

Mister Mask said: