Well, as evidenced by ESB and Rogue One, the only thing that we KNOW will be in the game that can damage an AT-AT is a lightsaber (and then it can only make small, oddly rectangular holes in the underside). Blasters? Nothing. Infantry scale rocket launchers? Nothing. Snow Speeder blasters? Nothing. We have seen AT-ATs destroyed by the following things in canon:

1) lightsaber plus big bag of bombs

2) tripping them and exposing their oddly placed "explode button" to snowspeeders

3) oddly powerful ion blasters used as door guns

4) X-Wings

5) a lucky force guided shot from a Clone Wars era AT-TE

6) another AT-AT

If we count Battlefront as a canon source, we can add "massed firepower and bombing runs from Y-Wings"

So really, my issue isn't "can they do it" or "will they do it" but "should they do it". I'm not entirely sure they should. If they put in an AT-AT, they have to give the Rebels something that can kill it, and even if they do an "epic" format, if even one of the AT-AT killing options is legal for standard play, it would run the risk of obliterating other vehicles and start the power creep process.

Now I'm not saying one way or the other. Having AT-ATs was never my core desire for this game, so I don't care one way or the other. I just hope that if it does happen it will be done well.

You forgot the slow, inexorable advance of a sandcrawler. It'd be like flipping over a tortoise.

16 hours ago, Crabbok said:

If they don't do an AT-AT - then what's even the point of having this game in the first place?

Some of us looking from our Imperial Assault collections to this are still wondering the same thing.

I don't think AT-Ats are going to work here. I think the terrain would be too close-in for the AT-ATs to maneuver, their obvious counters (starfighters) won't be present in the game, and they would be too expensive for people to snap them up and use them.

Likely it'll be up to the players to furnish their own AT-ATs if they want to play with them. Realistically the biggest we can probably expect is an AT-ST, and even then, perhaps only one of them.

There are more counters to them but they are from videogames mostly. The T4-B Heavy Tank for example in Empire at War is the rebel counterpart to the AT-AT in that game. And when you think about it, a much smaller tank being able to face an AT-AT makes sense, as the AT-AT is extremely multi-role with most of its body dedicated to transporting troops. Its towering height makes it an excellent command center (which requires dedicated equipment which takes room not contributing to directly fighting) but also makes it more vulnerable, and really only the head is the fighting part leaving it with a huge blindspot. Sure its supported by a fairly large reactor in the 'body' but a significantly smaller dedicated battletank should probably be able to (out)match it in a fight.

10 hours ago, Norsehound said:

Some of us looking from our Imperial Assault collections to this are still wondering the same thing.

IA is 5-10 figs with a focus on CQC and individuals. Legion is 30-40 figs with a focus on squads and vehicles. The movement is also more freeform and with true LoS being behind a wall actually makes you harder to hit.

19 minutes ago, Orcdruid said:

IA is 5-10 figs with a focus on CQC and individuals. Legion is 30-40 figs with a focus on squads and vehicles. The movement is also more freeform and with true LoS being behind a wall actually makes you harder to hit.

So... dudes shooting at other dudes. Same thing.

I do actually understand the subtleties in all seriousness. However, I look at this game and all I see is how they modified IA to morph it into Legion. Even the wound tokens are the same- they just inverted the colors.

Someday I'll accept the game and happily paint stormtrooper units in a color scheme I already pictured. But I'll have to come down from how I wanted to paint my AT-ATs and their AT-ST screens for my Armored Imperial division first.

37 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

I do actually understand the subtleties in all seriousness. However, I look at this game and all I see is how they modified IA to morph it into Legion. Even the wound tokens are the same- they just inverted the colors.

One could argue(somewhat successfully) that IA is just a reskin of descent 2e with a pvp tack-on.

There is one of those subtleties that I, and other people too by the look of things, missed is that skirmish is an addon to the campaign mode. Whereas legion is ground up a wargame.

3 hours ago, Norsehound said:

So... dudes shooting at other dudes. Same thing.

Then X-Wing, Armada, Warhammer, Runewars and so many other games are also all the same. You can break any of these games down to "dudes shooting at other dudes".

8 hours ago, MasterZelgadis said:

Then X-Wing, Armada, Warhammer, Runewars and so many other games are also all the same. You can break any of these games down to "dudes shooting at other dudes".

X-Wing is starfighters fighter models shooting at other fighters. Armada is Starships shooting at other starships. Imperial Assault and Legion are people models shooting at other people models.

Don't confuse the issue.

Imperial Assault is a skirmish game similar to Warhammer: Skirmish. It's appeal is very different than Warhammer Fantasy or Warhammer 40k proper. For example I personally never felt any attraction to Imperial Assault at its too 'zoomed in' bordering on an RPG, but Legion is completely down my alley however as I played Warhammer Fantasy & 40k when I was a young lad. Commanding entire squads/units gives those games a very different feel. The zoomed out scale also changes the tactical dimension with combined arms, multiple small units tactics etc. all coming into play. So its different enough, even if its at its core the same 'dudes shooting at other dudes' .

if they had made it in 15mm we could have had many AT-AT's

On 16.9.2017 at 7:41 PM, Norsehound said:

X-Wing is starfighters fighter models shooting at other fighters. Armada is Starships shooting at other starships. Imperial Assault and Legion are people models shooting at other people models.

Don't confuse the issue.

Yep.. guys shooting other guys. As you said.

6 hours ago, Darth evil said:

if they had made it in 15mm we could have had many AT-AT's

Though even in 15mm an in scale AT-AT would be quite big. The Body of an 15mm AT-AT would approximately have the size of an X-Wing Gozanti. So even in 15mm the AT-AT would be a model few players would own more then one or two off.
However in 15mm we could have had loads of AT-STs relatively easy.

On 16.09.2017 at 7:41 PM, Norsehound said:

X-Wing is starfighters fighter models shooting at other fighters. Armada is Starships shooting at other starships. Imperial Assault and Legion are people models shooting at other people models.

Don't confuse the issue.

X-Wing is starfighters fighter models shooting at other fighters. Armada is starfighter squadrons shooting at other starfighter squadrons plus a few larger pieces on the board.

Imperial Assault is people models shooting at other people models. Legion is squads of people models shooting at other squads of people models plus a few larger pieces on the board.

Not to mention IA is a board game, so it's not even the same genre as Legion.

Don't confuse the issue, my friend. Not every game with stormtrooper miniature inside have to be the same.

Now If Legion is a land version of Armada, AT-AT is a Deathstar or at least SSD. Only one side has it and it's impossible to destroy in standard combat. In RPG game You can devise creative plan to destroy that thing. In a wargame, You only fight with clever positioning, timing and throwing dice.

AT-AT might be the objective of Legion battle (hold on this Ion cannon long enough to aim and fire or something.), but never part of it.

On 9/16/2017 at 0:41 PM, Norsehound said:

Imperial Assault and Legion are people models shooting at other people models.

You continue to completely miss the point. Either you are incapable of seeing the difference or simply chose not to.

I would have preferred both Legion and Armada in smaller scales (Legion 10 or 15mm), that way we can use ALL of the iconic items in movies. Huge missed opportunity on FFG's part. For Legion, it was pretty greedy of them to make Legion 6mm bigger than IA minis. These are the types of thing that drive customers away. I still can't get over Legion not being 10 or 15mm.

Almost impossible to implement correctly with their scale:

• Armada:
  • Super Star Destroyer
  • Death Star ...?
• Legion:
  • ATAT
  • Snow speeders
  • Atmospheric fighters

Using 2 mm = 1 km, (everything Star Destroyer-sized or smaller being tiny images on a "squadron token" instead of miniatures), you could have a 32 cm wide DS1 and 40 cm wide DS2.

1 hour ago, Thraug said:

I would have preferred both Legion and Armada in smaller scales (Legion 10 or 15mm), that way we can use ALL of the iconic items in movies. Huge missed opportunity on FFG's part. For Legion, it was pretty greedy of them to make Legion 6mm bigger than IA minis. These are the types of thing that drive customers away. I still can't get over Legion not being 10 or 15mm.

Almost impossible to implement correctly with their scale:

• Armada:
  • Super Star Destroyer
  • Death Star ...?
• Legion:
  • ATAT
  • Snow speeders
  • Atmospheric fighters

Based on the Team Covenant gameplay video, it sounds like we are actually getting Snow Speeders. I'm curious as to how they'll work though, as it seems like they would clear most of the battlefield in one turn.

Just guessing "out loud" here, but maybe they do a mandatory movement, range 5 (30 inches). If they leave the edge of the board they cannot return for one round (as they "turn around") and may re-enter the field from the same edge of the board, or the one adjacent.

So that way, they can fly the length of the board the short way in a straight line, if need be.

2 hours ago, Thraug said:

Huge missed opportunity on FFG's part.

No it actually isn't, because 15mm and smaller doesn't sell as well. A 15mm scale Star Wars game would be a more niche product then Legion will be.

2 hours ago, Thraug said:

Armada:

• Super Star Destroyer
• Death Star ...?

• Legion:
  • ATAT
  • Snow speeders
  • Atmospheric fighters

There's never going to be a way to put the DS into a miniature game... Not unless something even as big as a SSD is little more than a token.

We'll likely see Snow Speeders in Legion, they were mentioned. We may even see an AT-AT.

But Atmospheric Fighters don't have a place in a game like this, even in 15mm scale you don't see them.

6 hours ago, VanorDM said:

You continue to completely miss the point. Either you are incapable of seeing the difference or simply chose not to.

It's partly the second.

Yes, I do understand that Legion's move off the grid system and with a larger play area allows for more dynamic infantry fights. I understand that the unit sizes are a larger, and the current rules are more reflective of an entire unit firing than single troopers shooting at individual targets. Now walkers and tanks aren't so awkwardly confined to grid movement. Speeder bikes have enough room to actually be a viable unit.

Yes, I can make out distinctions.

My disappointment is the scale and subject matter. In the end IA and Legion are still pushing around individual troopers on the board. The smallest capable combat unit is one man armed with a blaster against another man armed with a blaster. You have the same infantry battles, just choose if you want to be indoors for it (IA), or outdoors (Legion). To some level it's a repetition of effort.

Had it been smaller scale with vehicles, at least Legion would have added the dimension of ground armor battles, it would have been Armada to IA's X-Wing. Since we all feel AT-ATs would kind of be an awkward fit at this scale, and since I hear you're limited to only two armor units in a list, this isn't want Legion is setting out to accomplish. So... meh.

Legion does offer the fantasy of throwing hordes of stormtroopers at things, which can be nice, but I was looking forward to customizing Imperial armor.

26 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Had it been smaller scale with vehicles, at least Legion would have added the dimension of ground armor battles, it would have been Armada to IA's X-Wing. Since we all feel AT-ATs would kind of be an awkward fit at this scale, and since I hear you're limited to only two armor units in a list, this isn't want Legion is setting out to accomplish.

I have to say, reading this listing of games and types reminds me of the FW 40k Taros Campaign (1st Ed) where the book describes an entire Planetary invasion campaign. Each major battle or engagement gets a write up, and then an accompanying game using GWs major 40k lines at the time (Battlefleet, 40k, Killteam, Epic).

It wouldn't be a stretch to see the same here. If FFG puts out an epic scale for your major armor engagements, then all they'd have to do is write up the fluff and they could release a book that could be sold to and cross market 5 different lines. 6 if they toss in RPG stats...

1 hour ago, Norsehound said:

It's partly the second.

Yes, I do understand that Legion's move off the grid system and with a larger play area allows for more dynamic infantry fights. I understand that the unit sizes are a larger, and the current rules are more reflective of an entire unit firing than single troopers shooting at individual targets. Now walkers and tanks aren't so awkwardly confined to grid movement. Speeder bikes have enough room to actually be a viable unit.

Yes, I can make out distinctions.

My disappointment is the scale and subject matter. In the end IA and Legion are still pushing around individual troopers on the board. The smallest capable combat unit is one man armed with a blaster against another man armed with a blaster. You have the same infantry battles, just choose if you want to be indoors for it (IA), or outdoors (Legion). To some level it's a repetition of effort.

Had it been smaller scale with vehicles, at least Legion would have added the dimension of ground armor battles, it would have been Armada to IA's X-Wing. Since we all feel AT-ATs would kind of be an awkward fit at this scale, and since I hear you're limited to only two armor units in a list, this isn't want Legion is setting out to accomplish. So... meh.

Legion does offer the fantasy of throwing hordes of stormtroopers at things, which can be nice, but I was looking forward to customizing Imperial armor.

I find it funny everyone hope to customize Imperial Armour force and I haven't seen a single person that hope to customise Rebel armour force. It might be, because there is no rebel armour force. Actually in rebellion era there is no force at all, that can stand against imperial armour.

So in this game You hope to see, 100% battles would be empire vs empire.

Clone wars game might be good for major battles.

Rebellion era (OT, Rebels, R1) is about guerilla in space. Hit and run. Legion scale is the only one, that makes sense.

3 hours ago, Bohun242 said:

I find it funny everyone hope to customize Imperial Armour force and I haven't seen a single person that hope to customise Rebel armour force. It might be, because there is no rebel armour force. Actually in rebellion era there is no force at all, that can stand against imperial armour.

So in this game You hope to see, 100% battles would be empire vs empire.

Clone wars game might be good for major battles.

Rebellion era (OT, Rebels, R1) is about guerilla in space. Hit and run. Legion scale is the only one, that makes sense.

Not necessarily... you have to dig, but Rebel units are out there, from Empire at War to Battlefront. Besides in a large-scope battle game I figured the Rebellion would lean harder on combined arms and raiding forces than walk'n'stomp of the Empire. It's kind of the dynamics going on in Armada right now, though hopefully without giving too much of an advantage to the side with the most units like what's happening in Armada now with Rebel ship swarms.

Honestly, I'd love to paint up some Skyhoppers in unit colors to augment some T-47s. Take Rebel pathfinders, a couple of units of Wookie shock troops, and some Rebel combat speeders as a fast attack unit. Drop a couple of Torpedo artillery trucks from Empire at War to use as bait, or suppressive fire against Imperial AT-ATs to immobilize them with terrain and then hit them with air units.

Part of the thrill of such a game would be seeing all these vehicles across Star Wars get the plastic treatment and actually look good. That, and having a game big enough to pair with Armada to use in a campaign system to play out the GCW over a few months. These little man-skirmishes in Legion don't seem grand enough to determine who holds a planet. They never did for IA either, which like X-Wing are better used for simulating surgical strikes.

32 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Not necessarily... you have to dig, but Rebel units are out there, from Empire at War to Battlefront. Besides in a large-scope battle game I figured the Rebellion would lean harder on combined arms and raiding forces than walk'n'stomp of the Empire. It's kind of the dynamics going on in Armada right now, though hopefully without giving too much of an advantage to the side with the most units like what's happening in Armada now with Rebel ship swarms.

While true, using those vehicles would entirely depend on Lucasfilm's stamp of approval. It seems of late, the story group has really pushed the idea that the Rebellion is a hardscrabble, under-supplied, undermanned, underfunded guerrilla group, with even less than the scant resources the EU showed.

FFG also makes product at the behest of Lucasfilm. It could be someone looked to the relative success of miniature games like Legion and FFG's own forays with RuneWars, and 'suggested' they do similar with Star Wars.