What's worrysome for me is that he is the writter. I'm ok with his directing style, and let's imagine he will STOP using constant references to previous movies like he did in The Force Awakens, Star Trek and Into Darkness.

My main problem is that I don't really like the kind of universe liberties he takes to get himself out of writting problems. He has a tendency of bending the laws of a universe in a way that is difficult to bring back the limits. The moment you do that, it's difficult to create stakes later on (unless the characters forget that happened).

For example. In the Star Trek Universe, he added Teleport between planets. Teleport to ships at warp speed. Teleport torpedoes to another ship. And he cured Death. In Star Wars he made possible to get out of hyprespace right next to a planet. A superlaser that goes through Hyperspace. And in both universes, to make the characters get the news of an exploding planet, suddenly the explosions are visible from any other planet in the galaxy.

In both cases we are dealing with more fantasy or technobabble than true science, so it's not a problem of it being realistic (yes, the new Star Trek is more fantasy than science fiction). The problem is that he burns limits for a more dynamic script. Limits that are hard to get back to. Without any sense of consecuence.

Essentialy, he doesn't care about a consistent universe when he needs the script to get somewhere and he doesn't know how to get there.

13 minutes ago, Democratus said:

Depends on what species the speeder was originally designed for.

Who says it was built for a human?

Oh snap! That's true.

43 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

That is what it seems to be for me... What we consider to be an "outrageous" outlay of power is a coulple of D-Cell batteries to them... But the things that are truly obnoxious in power requirements - tearing through hyperspace, powering weapons, perhaps even extensive life-support systems - all require some sort of fuel...

So, wait, we are complaining about 'power storage capabilities' in a universe where there are pocket-sized laser swords that have enough energy to cut through metal like butter, and the battery charges on these demonstrably last thousands of years?!

I don't think there is a problem with energy storage (or production) in this universe...

2 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Not nearly as much as I cringed Starkiller Base, Hux's weird speech, or all the questions I had about what in the world the relationship between The Resistance, the Republic, and the First Order was. Or why if it was possible to Hyperspace through shields you wouldn't just have a droid hyperspace a GR-75 right into the oscillator. What's the size of the Reistance? Do they literally just have like fifteen X-Wings and the Falcon, because that was all that sent on a planetary bombing assault... TFA just felt so incredibly empty, like the Galaxy had about 50 people in it. Even while walking through Star Killer base, Han and Finn only encounter like two people: the one person who can deactivate the shields (but why the **** would Captain Shiny-Facism do it?) and the person they were trying to rescue. I am sure am glad they couldn't spare two minutes of film to add a little bit of context about the scope and relationship of the factions we were watching struggle against one another. But thank goodness we got like five minutes of Benny Hill themed squid monster chasing that used some of the worst CGI in the entire franchise. Might as well of just had Episode II's Dax "Diner Operator" Greasestain chasing the characters through the halls with a bunch of butcher knives in his hands -- I would have found it just as intense and suspenseful. I also liked how after we see Poe kill 12 TIE Fighters and three stromtroopers in eight seconds we then have to hear "That's a **** of a Pilot!" in case we didn't get the whole "Poe is the biggest and bestest ever and makes every other pilot in the 30-year-old franchise seem like a goon" vibe they were cramming down our throats.

Lazy movie was lazy.

But hey, we all cringe at different things.

PS: I don't just complain about movies to complain or because they're new. I tend to enjoy most movies I see, and I utterly loved Rogue One because it flushed the world out and filled it with things and was beautifully directed with excellent well-paced action. ****, I even liked Alien Resurrection quite a bit, to give you some standard of comparison.

Alien Resurrection wat?

it's crazy to me that people are trying to science Star Wars, it's the absolute worst about science and always has been. Science Star Trek(but not JJ's Star Trek, because JJ doesn't care about how accurate things are, he's the michael bay of lens flares)

You know what I really want? I want someone to go "hey how about we deal with the 278 mile long super gun spaceship doohickey by flying a minimally armed starfighter down its exhaust outflow and launching one proton torpedo at a micron behind a one way mirror" and then the actual naval captain gets up and says " actually, we got tired of this horse**** and made or own superweapon last year, it blew the **** thing apart 20 minutes ago while you were going through the minutes from last week."

42 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

You know what I really want? I want someone to go "hey how about we deal with the 278 mile long super gun spaceship doohickey by flying a minimally armed starfighter down its exhaust outflow and launching one proton torpedo at a micron behind a one way mirror" and then the actual naval captain gets up and says " actually, we got tired of this horse**** and made or own superweapon last year, it blew the **** thing apart 20 minutes ago while you were going through the minutes from last week."

so basically this?

42 minutes ago, dominosfleet said:

it's crazy to me that people are trying to science Star Wars, it's the absolute worst about science and always has been. Science Star Trek(but not JJ's Star Trek, because JJ doesn't care about how accurate things are, he's the michael bay of lens flares)

It isn't a question of science but of obeying the rules of the universe. Your universe can have the rule that a magic ring can turn you invisible at the cost of your soul. That is fine. It is not fine to later set that aside because it has become inconvenient. As outlined above JJ sets things aside because they are inconvenient. It is a hallmark of lazy writing.

2 hours ago, melminiatures said:

What's worrysome for me is that he is the writter. I'm ok with his directing style, and let's imagine he will STOP using constant references to previous movies like he did in The Force Awakens, Star Trek and Into Darkness.

My main problem is that I don't really like the kind of universe liberties he takes to get himself out of writting problems. He has a tendency of bending the laws of a universe in a way that is difficult to bring back the limits. The moment you do that, it's difficult to create stakes later on (unless the characters forget that happened).

For example. In the Star Trek Universe, he added Teleport between planets. Teleport to ships at warp speed. Teleport torpedoes to another ship. And he cured Death. In Star Wars he made possible to get out of hyprespace right next to a planet. A superlaser that goes through Hyperspace. And in both universes, to make the characters get the news of an exploding planet, suddenly the explosions are visible from any other planet in the galaxy.

In both cases we are dealing with more fantasy or technobabble than true science, so it's not a problem of it being realistic (yes, the new Star Trek is more fantasy than science fiction). The problem is that he burns limits for a more dynamic script. Limits that are hard to get back to. Without any sense of consecuence.

Essentialy, he doesn't care about a consistent universe when he needs the script to get somewhere and he doesn't know how to get there.

This is the most accurate criticism of JJ Abrams I've ever seen.

I don't know if he was responsible for those ideas or if someone else wrote them, but either way it's moot because it's one of the director's jobs to go "wait, this is stupid" or "wait, this destroys the fabric and rules of this fictional world," especially for a director who professes to love that world so much.


While the Prequels were cheesy and goofy and suffered from terrible writing, at least they told an overall compelling story and filled the Star Wars universe with more places, people, and stuff to geek over. We see how the Jedi Order lived and functioned, we get a deeper exploration of Palpatine (arguably the best character in Star Wars), and we get lots of sweet new ships and lightsaber duels. It added to the Star Wars mythos rather than just hand-waving lazily through it and bending the rules for easy plot solutions, which is ultimately what The Force Awakens does.

While I wouldn't call myself a fan of the Prequels, they did some things better than TFA.

Prequels: It gives us too much. You could cut-out a lot of the silly filler (Jar-Jar, 30 minutes of the Pod Race, a space diner, the Tom & Jerry adventures of R2D2 and C3PO in the droid factory) and you'd be left with a better, and arguably almost decent, movie. Editing it down by removing non-plot relevant gristle can make it better, as many of the fan edits have shown. There is a redeemable kernel under all of it that can be recovered.

The Force Awakens: It doesn't give you nearly enough. There are way too many things glossed over and the world feels empty and you have no sense of scope. Why is the Resistance literally only like 15 X-Wings? Does the First Order only have a single Star Destroyer? What the heck is the relationship between the Resistance and the Republic, and why does the Republic not just exterminate the First Order? Why should we care those planets got destroyed, since we have no emotional investment in them and we only learn of their existence a few seconds before the Dues Ex Phonin' It In laser destroys them. These are not good questions to leave your audience with, they are just inadequate story-telling. There are good mysteries to leave an audience with (e.g. Who is Rey? How can she manipulate the force so well? What's Snoke's deal?), but the sorts of questions about scope or context or basic relationships or settings are not those kind of things that should skipped to the point of leaving the audience bewildered and without a bearing. To make the Force Awakens a better movie you'd have to add significant things to it, and probably also remove plot-integral elements (e.g. Starkiller Base, Hyperspace). There is a part of a redeemable kernel here, but the fan community doesn't have a means to add to that kernel to make it complete.


Put differently, the Prequels offered a great story that was told poorly (bad acting, weak dialogue, too much filler) while The Force Awakens offered a poor and incomplete story but told it very well (great acting, props, sets, effects).


Neither were ideal Star Wars films. Personally, I prefer what the Prequels offered, since I like to add to the Star Wars mythos since much of my enjoyment of it comes from outside of the theater (e.g. X-Wing). I can certainly understand and appreciate those who prefer TFA, but for me it's inadequate story and lazy handling of the elements of the Star Wars mythos was more of a detraction than fart jokes and droids switching heads and using "sand's hardness" as a flirtation techinque, because TFA didn't add to the Star Wars mythos for me, it just sort of spit on it while making it look visually stunning.

31 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

This is the most accurate criticism of JJ Abrams I've ever seen.

Be careful. The people on this forum don't know what criticism is and will attack you as a butt hurt Star Wars fan who wants to bring realism into a fictional world which you should blindly enjoy as eye candy instead of acknowledging Star Wars as an emotional investment that we all have put time into and wanting the best for it by pointing out the good and bad parts of the movies.

I agree with both you an mel.

21 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

...

I don't disagree with your criticisms of JJ, but...

Quote

I can certainly understand and appreciate those who prefer TFA, but for me it's inadequate story and lazy handling of the elements of the Star Wars mythos was more of a detraction than fart jokes and droids switching heads and using "sand's hardness" as a flirtation techinque, because TFA didn't add to the Star Wars mythos for me, it just sort of spit on it while making it look visually stunning.

So if I understand this correctly, TFA's physics being inconsistent in the Star Wars universe, lack of new Star Wars mythos pieces (is this really true?), incomplete story (I mean, it is the first part of a trilogy, by definition it is incomplete) is a higher offense (spitting on it? really? that's a bit dramatic) than all "fart jokes", "droids switching heads", poor acting, etc.? I think a more accurate comparison would be TPM vs. TFA vs. ANH, and in my opinion TFA blows TPM out of the water looking at these in a vacuum.

It also seems at some points you make you fault TFA for forcing the viewer to have outside information to understand the story it tries to tell (a valid criticism), but then give the prequels a pass on this. If you take someone who has never watched the original trilogy and is not familiar with any part of Star Wars I think they would be more confused at TPM than they would be with TFA.

Even though what I wrote up there, I still consider The Force Awakens better than any of the Prequels. It's a better movie and I apreciate that more than the worldbuilding with terrible execution of the prequels.

47 minutes ago, melminiatures said:

Even though what I wrote up there, I still consider The Force Awakens better than any of the Prequels. It's a better movie and I apreciate that more than the worldbuilding with terrible execution of the prequels.

The real test of whether it's a "Star Wars" movie to me is quotability.

I can hardly remember any really 'quotable' lines in TFA. "I'll show you the Dark Side", maybe? "It's true, all of it?" Okay, so...that's two lines.

Does that really compare well to... "Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you." Or "Wipe them out. All of them." I mean, I know you all use that last one when you are playing X-Wing/Armada...and that's pure Episode I. (Although I usually bust out 'How wude!' when anyone destroys one of my ships or squadrons, which happens a lot more than the other thing) etc.

Worldbuilding > execution

Hey, at least we'll get Rian Johnson for the next one. I'm super looking forward to that, everything he's done that I've seen I thought was great, and Looper had some of the best world building in a scifi movie I've ever seen.

JJ on Ep 9? Kinda disappointed. I think he'd be best if someone else wrote it. Maybe Disney will be willing to take a chance, or hopefully Rian Johnson has a badass set up for him to springboard from.

My take on the last two movies: TFA had really awesome characters, some of the best in the series as a whole, and really cool tone. It FELT like Star Wars. The plot, however, was God awful. Rehash of Ep IV, and really screwed with suspension of disbelief. Hey, I get it, space wizards, but shooting lasers slower than the speed of an airplane, visible to the naked eye, at a whole solar system away, and it still gets there in two minutes? I mean beliavability has to start somewhere. Oh and the death star is done, man. Can we get another macguffin please? Still great characters, though.

Rogue One, tonally great, again, FELT Star Wars, really cool and interesting plot, nice action sequences, and completely boring and forgettable characters. Man, weren't you sad when...uh...gun guy died? Or how about blind guy? Man, I really connected emotionally with blind guy. I loved how bland he was especially. Still, cool plot, great action. I put TFA = Rogue One, and usually the people who put one over the other are people that favor plot more, or character, depending on which movie they feel is superior.

Can we please get a Star Wars movie now in the last 20 years that has great plot and action but ALSO great characters? Thanks, I appreciate it.

7 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

If we're being completely honest.

There was one thing about TFA that made no sense and drives me nuts every time I watch it....



Why doesn't it land when it shuts down?!

How does it do that if there's no engine running?

How do they keep them from floating off?

What is going on in this galaxy?!

1) That's Repulsorlift technology. A staple of the Star Wars universe...

2) Space Magic?

3) Space Magic?

4) There are many books written about the subject, perhaps go to your local library or Barnes and Noble to catch up?

My problem with TFA is the complete lack of story.I came out from the cinema, and felt Empty. I saw isd, walker, falcon, old chars... Everything I loved. I see this film as a 'lets give the old sw fans a ride on the nostalgia train' and get back as much Money as possible we spent on lucasarts. I Hope time Will prove me wrong, and as the trilogy completes, It Will complete the whole picture.

On the other hand, R1 felt more star wars-ish, It gave you the same nostalgia, Just wasnt that direct(timeline helped a lot). Also, we got a story...

14 hours ago, Forresto said:

http://www.starwars.com/news/j-j-abrams-to-write-and-direct-star-wars-episode-ix

Say what you will but JJ Abrams is a great director in a whole other league then Colin. I am for one highly optimistic.

I only wish Rian Johnson was writing and Abrams was only directing.

At least JJ Abrams is the better "JJ". First i thought you mean JarJar with "JJ" and was shocked.

13 hours ago, Norell said:

I love the special editions. I love Lucas, jar Jar, the Gungans, the EU, teh Clone Wars and Rebels.

Can I haz my fanboy t-shirt please?

## vote Norell

8 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

## vote Norell

You're dead, stop voting out of thread sheep!

18 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

If we're being completely honest.

There was one thing about TFA that made no sense and drives me nuts every time I watch it....



Why doesn't it land when it shuts down?!

How does it do that if there's no engine running?

How do they keep them from floating off?

What is going on in this galaxy?!

Bugs bunny style air brakes.

18 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Dras, I always enjoy your replies. lol

I mean they did show Luke's V-35 on a platform of sorts in the garage....

I don't know, this one in particular just bugged the heck out of me. Maybe because the speeder isn't at waist level, so forcing the user to climb it seems like a massive design flaw.

From what I recall reading, Rey's speeder is actually scavenged parts she collected and then assembled into a useable vehicle.

21 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

If we're being completely honest.

There was one thing about TFA that made no sense and drives me nuts every time I watch it....



Why doesn't it land when it shuts down?!

How does it do that if there's no engine running?

How do they keep them from floating off?

What is going on in this galaxy?!

Well this is a fun turn of the conversation. I have actually spent way too much time recently discussing this andother Star Wars physics with my 14 year old son. Much of my argument will come from the old WEG Star Wars D6 RPG, the rest from my own observations of the Star Wars Universe.

1 Repulsorlifts derive their power from the gravity well they are in. That's why land speeders function the same on every planet regardless of the gravity of each planet.

2 As long as the Repulsorlifts are active, no other power is needed to keep it "hovering".

3 Mass, that is still several hundred pounds of weight, but I have seen evidence that going from park to moving on a speeder is at least a 2 step process. The first is probably releasing the gravity brake, that holds its position in the gravity well.

4 Seriously different rules exist here. Space isn't a vacuum, it has a nonbreathable atmosphere. Light Speed is not only attainable, it creates an entry point into Hyperspace. Hyperspace is not a speed, it is a sub level of reality, that provides faster than light travel to other places because the rules are different there. It is implyed that Hyperspace engines are only there to allow entry/exit from Hyperspace. Blaster bolts, very similar to a PPG, or phased plasma gun shot, move at roughly the same speed as a Nerf gun foam dart. There is a mystical energy field that controls your destiny... an obeys your commands. Planets and moons dominated by a single climate zone are very common.

Oh, and the concentration of a specific micro organism in your blood, that concentration being very geneticly specific to each individual, allow you to learn to manipulate the very fabric of the universe to some extent.

Well, I'm sure I left a few things out, but I hope this helps you enjoy your time here in the Star Wars Universe.

3 minutes ago, cynanbloodbane said:

Well this is a fun turn of the conversation. I have actually spent way too much time recently discussing this andother Star Wars physics with my 14 year old son. Much of my argument will come from the old WEG Star Wars D6 RPG, the rest from my own observations of the Star Wars Universe.

1 Repulsorlifts derive their power from the gravity well they are in. That's why land speeders function the same on every planet regardless of the gravity of each planet.

2 As long as the Repulsorlifts are active, no other power is needed to keep it "hovering".

3 Mass, that is still several hundred pounds of weight, but I have seen evidence that going from park to moving on a speeder is at least a 2 step process. The first is probably releasing the gravity brake, that holds its position in the gravity well.

4 Seriously different rules exist here. Space isn't a vacuum, it has a nonbreathable atmosphere. Light Speed is not only attainable, it creates an entry point into Hyperspace. Hyperspace is not a speed, it is a sub level of reality, that provides faster than light travel to other places because the rules are different there. It is implyed that Hyperspace engines are only there to allow entry/exit from Hyperspace. Blaster bolts, very similar to a PPG, or phased plasma gun shot, move at roughly the same speed as a Nerf gun foam dart. There is a mystical energy field that controls your destiny... an obeys your commands. Planets and moons dominated by a single climate zone are very common.

Oh, and the concentration of a specific micro organism in your blood, that concentration being very geneticly specific to each individual, allow you to learn to manipulate the very fabric of the universe to some extent.

Well, I'm sure I left a few things out, but I hope this helps you enjoy your time here in the Star Wars Universe.

#4 and beyond I actually knew! the rest I did not, that makes so much sense! Thanks! lol

16 minutes ago, cynanbloodbane said:

Oh, and the concentration of a specific micro organism in your blood, that concentration being very geneticly specific to each individual, allow you to learn to manipulate the very fabric of the universe to some extent.

Well, I'm sure I left a few things out, but I hope this helps you enjoy your time here in the Star Wars Universe.

Phew, I thought you were going to make a reference to Midichlorians. The second worse thing about the Phantom Menace in many folks eyes. It's close but I'd say they were the worst thing about TPM.