Just preempting this one:
"When you suffer damage from a bomb, you suffer 1 additional critical damage. Then, remove this card."
Does suffering 0 damage count?
If so, does this only occur when the bomb has a chance to do damage but fails e.g. with Bomblet rolling blanks, or does it also occur when the bomb hasn't got any mechanism to deal damage at all?
Also, should this card (be amended to) say 'when you suffer *at least 1* damage from a bomb...'?
Edited by thespaceinvaderI see what you're driving at, you're thinking like hit by attack. But no suffering damage is not the same, its the actual allocation of damage.
6 minutes ago, Smitty said:I see what you're driving at, you're thinking like hit by attack. But no suffering damage is not the same, its the actual allocation of damage.
No, I'm driving at the fact that doing 0 of a thing is something that can happen in x-wing, c.f. OL blocking spending a focus to modify all 0 eyeballs rolled.
Not to mention rolling 0 dice being eminently possible.
I don't think it's possible to have a situation that deals 0 damage, is there?
28 minutes ago, DailyRich said:I don't think it's possible to have a situation that deals 0 damage, is there?
Blount for one. His attack hits even if no damage is dealt to the target. Rolling blanks on cluster mines and prox mine.
It's possible. A year ago I dropped a perfect spread of two cluster mines in front of Vader. He hit all 6. Twelve dice and one hit. And before anyone asks it was during a trench run scenario. He either took the blasts or left the trench.
What if you use Sabine to damage a ship that did not run over a mine? i.e. within range 1 of the bomb that damaged another ship.
Does Sabine's extra damage count as "damage from a bomb"?
22 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:What if you use Sabine to damage a ship that did not run over a mine? i.e. within range 1 of the bomb that damaged another ship.
Does Sabine's extra damage count as "damage from a bomb"?
Sabine's extra damage is NOT "damage from a bomb." It is damage from Sabine Wren (unless a future FAQ changes... I'm only considering current RAW).
'
1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:No, I'm driving at the fact that doing 0 of a thing is something that can happen in x-wing, c.f. OL blocking spending a focus to modify all 0 eyeballs rolled.
Not to mention rolling 0 dice being eminently possible.
My meaning is that you suffer damage only when a hit or crit is present, a blank doesnt cause you to suffer zero damage the rules on bomb cards just say for each hit suffer 1. If there are no hits then you don't satisfy the condition in the rule on the bomb card that tells you to start suffering damage.
Well, let's look at the bombs, shall we:
"Ion Bombs Token: When this bomb token detonates, each ship at Range 1 of the token receives 2 ion tokens. Then discard this token."
No damage suffered, no trigger to activate rattled.
"Seismic Charge Token: When this bomb token detonates, each ship at Range 1 of the token suffers 1 damage . Then discard this token."
Suffers damage is present, condition satisfied.
"Bomblet Token: When this token detonates, each ship at Range 1 rolls 2 attack dice and suffers all damage (hit) and critical damage (crit) rolled. Then discard this token."
To me, that reads that you need to roll a hit or crit to suffer damage. You don't suffer damage on a blank or focus. Those options are not listed, so it's not a "0 damage rolled" option.
"Sabine: Your upgrade bar gains the upgrade icon. Once per round, before a friendly bomb token is removed, choose 1 enemy ship at Range 1 of that token. That ship suffers 1 damage."
Sabine inflicts the damage, not the bomb. Hence why she can cause damage from an ion bomb. The trigger requires that the bomb inflicts the damage.
I think that about covers it up, yes?
2 hours ago, Stoneface said:Blount for one. His attack hits even if no damage is dealt to the target. Rolling blanks on cluster mines and prox mine.
It's possible. A year ago I dropped a perfect spread of two cluster mines in front of Vader. He hit all 6. Twelve dice and one hit. And before anyone asks it was during a trench run scenario. He either took the blasts or left the trench.
Right, but you're just not dealing damage in those cases. It's not a case of "I hit you and deal you 0 damage cards."
2 hours ago, DailyRich said:Right, but you're just not dealing damage in those cases. It's not a case of "I hit you and deal you 0 damage cards."
What's the difference? If you run over a mine, you've hit it. You roll blanks and receive "zero" damage cards.
This might be too subtle of a concept for my mind to grasp.
I guess I can't wrap my head around the concept of suffering 0 damage. There's nothing to suffer. If you don't get a card or lose a shield, you haven't suffered anything, so you can't trigger the effect.
6 hours ago, DailyRich said:I guess I can't wrap my head around the concept of suffering 0 damage. There's nothing to suffer. If you don't get a card or lose a shield, you haven't suffered anything, so you can't trigger the effect.
If you go to the faq, there are abilities that work by allowing the pilot/card to choose 0 dice reroll/ modify (iirc farlander is one to shed the stress)
Using this as a precedent the card as written can work for 0 damage as long as the ship with rattled is "hit" by the bomb (dice rolled)
My only possible counter (and i dont have rules handy) would be to refer to dealing damage in the rule reference/faq and see if it's ruled on.
You don't get hit by a bomb, it detonates then things happen exactly as the reference card says. The bombs applicable to this question involving a dice roll that could blank out have no provision for how to handle a blank or focus result. Its not zero damage its null damage you are not instructed to suffer anything unless the dice have a positive result.
Exactly. Otherwise I'll Show You The Dark Side is continuously being hit by "zero critical damage" whenever under fire....
Spending a token on a dice pool to modify zero focus results is fine because the dice pool and the token exist, so the 'step' exists, even if it has no effect. That's what's meant by "zero results is a legal thing".
But bombs aren't an attack - their mechanics are solely and only what is on their upgrade cards, because they're not part of the standard rules.
Rolling your dice for the bomblet or mine creates a step of "suffer 1 damage" if you get a hit. If you don't, the step never exists, just as if a ship wasn't within range 1, so Rattled never triggers.
Edited by Magnus GrendelYeah, ISYTDS is a good argument.
I'm not really sold either way on this one, and RAW is obvious - but then, I thought RAW was obvious about the interaction between OL and spending a focus token on 0 results (still do TBH), and boy was I wrong.
14 hours ago, dotswarlock said:"Bomblet Token: When this token detonates, each ship at Range 1 rolls 2 attack dice and suffers all damage (hit) and critical damage (crit) rolled. Then discard this token."
To me, that reads that you need to roll a hit or crit to suffer damage. You don't suffer damage on a blank or focus. Those options are not listed, so it's not a "0 damage rolled" option.
I would agrea on all the other bombs you described. On this one though, I could see it both ways. You suffer all hits and crits you rolled, all 0 of them.
What ever the verdict is, it will proboly end up in the FAQ sonner or later... Most likely later... much much later.
1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:I thought RAW was obvious about the interaction between OL and spending a focus token on 0 results (still do TBH), and boy was I wrong.
What do you mean?
7 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:What do you mean?
I thought (and still think though I'm happy to be FAQed otherwise) you should be able to spend a focus (or Keyan a stress) token when you have 0 eyeball results if something blocks you modifying your dice.
That's not the way the FAQ went though.
It's not. Because Omega Leader doesn't take away the focus results, he takes away the opportunity to modify them; essentially forcing you to skip (or at least do nothing in) the modify dice step where you would have spent that token.
You always spend a token to [declared purpose]. You can't just spend a token for no reason midway through a turn, even if you end up spending one for no effect (Keyan, Hotshot co-pilot, etc)
Omega Leader is taking away the opportunity to pick "change x result" as a thing you can spend a focus token on . It doesn't matter whether the dice modification is coming from a focus token, expertise, a debt to pay, or whatever, and just as equally it doesn't matter how many results there are.
Look at it this way; either you can spend a token to "modify zero results" or not. If you can, it is by definition 'modifying' and as such disallowed by omega leader. If you can't, Keyan can only use his ability if he rolls an eyeball (and we know that's not the case).
Edited by Magnus GrendelI"m not interested in rehashing that argument, it's settled.
I'm more interested in how the '0 of a thing is a possible thing to have' argument applies to this case.
I doubt it's intended that Rattled should trigger on every bomblet regardless of the role, but FFG have surprised me before with the way they've ruled stuff.
2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:I'm more interested in how the '0 of a thing is a possible thing to have' argument applies to this case.
Essentially, I would try to shorthand it this way: having '0 of something' is possible as a game entity is possible as part of a rules step that is mandated to exist by the game's core rules. It is not when you're creating new steps or effects that require there to be something in them to exist.
Longhand:
Where a rules card or upgrade card creates a mechanic out of whole cloth, you do not get 'rules steps' unless they are explicitly defined. A bomb token DETONATES, but that has no specific rules effect by itself - models are never 'hit' by a bomb, for example they suffer 1 damage if they are within range 1 of a seismic charge. They receive 2 ion tokens if they are within range of an ion bomb. They suffer 1 damage if they are within range of a bomblet and they roll 1 HIT result (or 2 if they roll 2 HIT results, and so on). At no point are they being 'attacked' by the bomb, so there is no 'empty step' with no damage in it to resolve Rattled against.
Any non-attack effect literally doesn't exist until you get to the appropriate step in resolving it; otherwise zero of every possible game effect is simultaneously happening to a ship at once (see I'll show you the dark side)
For Bomblet and Proxy there IS a step where you roll dice and take all damage rolled, though. All including 0, potentially.
On 9/12/2017 at 5:18 PM, Stoneface said:What's the difference? If you run over a mine, you've hit it. You roll blanks and receive "zero" damage cards.
This might be too subtle of a concept for my mind to grasp.
From the Rules Reference under "Damage":
"When a ship suffers a damage or critical damage it loses one shield token. If it does not have any shield tokens to lose, it is dealt one Damage card instead."
To me, this seems to indicate that suffering damage has to involve damage actually being done to the ship. If the amount is 0 (no shield tokens are lost or damage cards are gained), then you may have been hit but you have not suffered damage.
On 9/13/2017 at 11:09 AM, thespaceinvader said:For Bomblet and Proxy there IS a step where you roll dice and take all damage rolled, though. All including 0, potentially.
This is a bit less clear to me, but I would argue the opposite. If it said, "suffer damage equal to the number of <hit> rolled ", then yes, 0 would be a possibility. As written, stating that you suffer all damage rolled, I would think that not rolling any damage would mean not suffering any damage.
Essentially, by failing to roll any damage or critical damage, you are suffering null damage, which is not the same as 0 damage.
Edited by JJ4819 hours ago, JJ48 said:
Essentially, by failing to roll any damage or critical damage, you are suffering null damage, which is not the same as 0 damage.
That is my understanding as well.