25 minutes ago, Tsiegtiez said:

...

Let it be suffice to say the Empire's best and brightest were not the people that lost the Battle of Jakku.

...

Just my two cents.

I've read (and liked, mostly) Bloodline. Here is a side question for you: In that book, Leia is a Senator...from where? Which planet elected her? Who does she represent in the newly formed Senate?

I don't know that simple answer after reading a 332 page book about politics, whose main character is a politician.

As for the Empire: I prefer the original ideas that the best and brightest Imperials blew up on the first Death Star. The best of what was left blew up around Endor. The best of the third (or fourth?) string died above Jakku. The remaining Imperials fought amongst themselves for the scraps and left-overs, becoming more marginalized with each passing year as the reformed Republic rose and pushed that ex-Imperial rabble aside, slowly but surely. The stage set for the original Thrawn trilogy, in essence. Some of the same themes found in Aftermath, et al in the Disney canon.

To respect that which has come before in this shared universe setting, I would think a good idea would be to have the First Order be more rag-tag outfit, equipment-wise (but super fanatical, philosophy-wise). If they, the under-resourced remains of the losing side of the Galactic Civil War, hiding in the shadows out of necessity, can eclipse everything Palpatine did, that's a shame. It de-values the OT. Makes those epic struggles a mere prelude to this derivative re-hash.

Please. No more superweapons. No more mindless bigger = better.

6 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Starkiller Base was a bit over-the-top, but fortunately I was able to kind of tune it out as, "Blah, blah, blah, GIANT, DEADLY WEAPON TO DESTROY , blah blah," and not get bogged down in how ridiculous the details are. Even if its weapon is thoroughly implausible, at least it looked epically dramatic on screen (one reason I'm far more forgiving with movies than I am with books).

Everyone has to admit this is just a little bit bad-***, even if scientifically ridiculous.

"I'm going to shoot you with my planet!"

26 minutes ago, kris40k said:

Everyone has to admit this is just a little bit bad-***, even if scientifically ridiculous.

"I'm going to shoot you with my planet!"

I had a hard time accepting the "its a bigger death star" routine as much as anyone.....but still...

Was there any other way that they could have made the Empire "immediately" a threat again in one 2.5 hr movie without the Star Wars equivalent of an Atom bomb?

If they dont wipe out a significant portion of the rebel power base then the Empire is the rebels basically and the resistance are the empire. No one wanted to see another "political coup" movie where the Sith take over the Rebel government from within. ( see Phantom Menace ). The only other plot device I can imagine is if they centered the threat around a Sith and his apprentice fighting against overwhelming odds to make the empire relevant again. But im not having an antagonist that is so significantly out numbered would have worked either. Id love to see that movie....where Kylo & Snoke & maybe a group of hired mercenaries gradually murder their way back into control through assassination missions or w/e.....but it would be a much smaller in scale movie, certainly not what we got with TFA. Not sure that would have worked for general audiences.

2 minutes ago, evanger said:

I've read (and liked, mostly) Bloodline. Here is a side question for you: In that book, Leia is a Senator...from where? Which planet elected her? Who does she represent in the newly formed Senate?

I don't know that simple answer after reading a 332 page book about politics, whose main character is a politician.

As for the Empire: I prefer the original ideas that the best and brightest Imperials blew up on the first Death Star. The best of what was left blew up around Endor. The best of the third (or fourth?) string died above Jakku. The remaining Imperials fought amongst themselves for the scraps and left-overs, becoming more marginalized with each passing year as the reformed Republic rose and pushed that ex-Imperial rabble aside, slowly but surely. The stage set for the original Thrawn trilogy, in essence. Some of the same themes found in Aftermath, et al in the Disney canon.

To respect that which has come before in this shared universe setting, I would think a good idea would be to have the First Order be more rag-tag outfit, equipment-wise (but super fanatical, philosophy-wise). If they, the under-resourced remains of the losing side of the Galactic Civil War, hiding in the shadows out of necessity, can eclipse everything Palpatine did, that's a shame. It de-values the OT. Makes those epic struggles a mere prelude to this derivative re-hash.

Please. No more superweapons. No more mindless bigger = better.

I really appreciate all of that. You have a lot of good points! Although, I think Leia represents the Alderaan system and survivors, who she personally helped reorganise in the comics. It's a pretty typical Star Wars hand-wave, though; there's other populated areas of the Alderaan sector even though they've not been brought up before. She has to be in the New Republic government because she's Leia, dangit.

I too was initially put off by how together the First Order seems to be, but I've come round on the idea. I mean, yes it makes the story more familiar by having the big, well-equipped bad guys against the rag-tag underdog Reb-sistance, and you're more sympathetic to the "good guys" who aren't just the government enforcing status quo. And then, story-wise, the First Order is basically the remnants of the Third Reich making it to Argentina and trying again after years of money-siphoning and mobilisation. I think that's something Abrams has actually said concerning the story.

I too think the stage was set for the original Thrawn legends, and was hoping that was going to be closer to the plot for TFA. They might yet pull off something like that. I'm also done with the superweapons, especially since they seem counterproductive to the First Order's stated aims of harnessing the galaxy's residents and resources for the better of all, by imposing order first. Wiping out the Senate on Hosnian Prime, along with decimating the New Republic Fleet...sure. It's also very Palpatine-fanboy-style to make a bigger, better Death Star, but still. And isn't all of this technically part of Palpatine's Contingency? He was the one responsible for scouting the Unknown Regions. Really hope we get more on that and Thrawn going forward.

And for what it's worth, I don't find anything in the OT devalued by TFA. Out-of-universe, Lucasfilm needed a soft reboot to kickstart the new stuff, so sharing story beats with the first film makes plenty of sense. In-universe, I felt it was poignant to have the accomplishments of the main cast eventually undone by a new generation interpreting the same old evil. Tyranny and the dark side of the Force don't take time off, they just wait.

1 hour ago, Tsiegtiez said:

In-universe, I felt it was poignant to have the accomplishments of the main cast eventually undone by a new generation interpreting the same old evil. Tyranny and the dark side of the Force don't take time off, they just wait.

On the other hand , Palpatine was, AFAIK the most successful Sith in a long time (at least after the Rule of Two was instated). All he achieved came after a lifetime of scheming where he eventually harnessed the resources of almost the entire galaxy to his goals.

Then you get Snoke outdoing Palpatine, at least in the military department, with a fraction of time, resources and pretty much what's left of Palpatine's forces after 3 military disasters.

To me at least it.s exceedingly hard to rationalize that in-universe.

TFA might be my favorite Star Wars movie, so I like that JJ is coming back. Also would have been happy with someone else, just for the sake of something different though.

2 hours ago, LordBlades said:

On the other hand , Palpatine was, AFAIK the most successful Sith in a long time (at least after the Rule of Two was instated). All he achieved came after a lifetime of scheming where he eventually harnessed the resources of almost the entire galaxy to his goals.

Yes! Palpatine was the man with the plan in a can. He was one of the few people in the PT that had clear goals and took steps towards realising them!

2 hours ago, LordBlades said:

Then you get Snoke outdoing Palpatine, at least in the military department, with a fraction of time, resources and pretty much what's left of Palpatine's forces after 3 military disasters.

To me at least it.s exceedingly hard to rationalize that in-universe.

It seems likely to me that, the man who "eventually harnessed the resources of almost the entire galaxy to his goals" might very well have set up his successor-state for success. The flight to the Unknown Regions and the seeds of the First Order are said to be all part of Palpatine's Contingency. I don't think they've completely sketched out the whys and wherefores but the gist is if an Empire allows for the death of its Emperor, it's not a very good Empire. Wipe slate, begin anew.

8 hours ago, Underachiever599 said:

I'm going to have to take issue with this point. The golden bikini was not a flaw of Return of the Jedi. Yes, Leia was objectified as a woman in that scene, but it wasn't for the sake of fan-service. It was to show how despicable and evil Jabba was. Jabba was the one who put her in the bikini and objectified her. He literally saw her as an object to own. And that was portrayed in the movie as a terrible thing to do. The movie basically out-right tells us that objectifying women is evil. And then Leia strangles him to death with the chains he used to bind her. Heck, if you're going for the feminist angle, that's the most overtly feminist scene in all of Star Wars. A woman liberating herself through the very chains that were used to hold her down.

Sorry for the rant, but that comment just really struck a nerve with me.

This was a well-thought-out and -expressed opinion that contains insights I wish I had thought through to myself. Thanks for that.

However, I'm not sure I can be as confident of the motives of the filmmakers. I think that Padme's senseless belly-baring in Episode II demonstrates that George Lucas is prepared to sexualize his female characters.* More importantly, Leia in the bikini (and posing provocatively) was featured prominently in Episode VI's poster advertisements: her attire was not only a statement on gender issues, but also an attempt to appeal to moviegoers.

*Edit: Unfortunately, it appears so am I, because I have enjoyed seeing both of them dressed that way. Mea culpa.

4 minutes ago, TheHumanHydra said:

This was a well-thought-out and -expressed opinion that contains insights I wish I had thought through to myself. Thanks for that.

However, I'm not sure I can be as confident of the motives of the filmmakers. I think that Padme's senseless belly-baring in Episode II demonstrates that George Lucas is prepared to sexualize his female characters. More importantly, Leia in the bikini (and posing provocatively) was featured prominently in Episode VI's poster advertisements: her attire was not only a statement on gender issues, but also an attempt to appeal to moviegoers.

Sex sells. See the original movie poster for details:

beefcake and cheesecake. Just happens that cheesecake is easier to have scantily clad unless you go full on Conan or something.

On ‎9‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 8:38 AM, Vontoothskie said:

A new hope was great, but what made it work was astonishing chemistry among the cast and the pure brilliance of everyone involved.

Abrahms took some talented actors and gave them a piece of mediocre fan fiction as their script, and the result was everything youd expect... an OK movie that felt kinda off because it was trying soooo hard to Star Wars while completely missing the point. Luke is a badass only after he larns some ****, his first fight he gets his hand cut off and cries before trying to commit suicide. Rey just owns a trained killer with no prep.

The death star travels to its victims, giving some degree of plausibility and great pacing to the film. Starkiller base summons a star, says "GET IN MUH BELLY!", then blows up five seperate planets millions of lightyears away, and somehow every character can see it happen? how?

and Snoke... just no. dudes a doctor who villain that got cut for being too goofy

Yep, this is pretty much spot on.

I like some of the characters in TFA. It had some magnificent dogfight scenes. But the plot was full of holes, and the story's main antagonist is just an insane version of young whiny Luke. Maybe that's what they were going for with Kylo Ren, but as a character he is just not impressive. There is no impact when he enters a scene. I realize that being in Darth Vader's shadow makes for big boots to follow, but it's not like Darth is the only Star Wars villain to fill the screen with his presence.

So....general question here....why do sooo many people take issue with Rey being so "strong" with the force so quickly?

Its kinda obviously telegraphed as something unusual that its pretty clearly an intentional plot device. **** the name of the movie is Force Awakens. Finn finds the force first....in a moment of goodness in face of evil, Rey finds it second generally combined with anger and fear. Her absurd ability with the force sets up a huge amount of the intrigue with the next episode. If they dont follow up on it with a good explanation ill have my pitch fork out with the everyone else.

It was jarring at first definitely, but everytime I rewatch TFA it becomes more and more obvious that Rey is this kind of force sensitive time bomb. Outside of the Falcon Flip tie fighter kill she doesnt really demonstrate any inexplicable force ability until after she has that "force nightmare" which if you watch it and listen to it.....seems like she is have a serious encounter with the dark side more than anything else. After that scene her force capability sky rockets after running off into the woods.

After that vision the moment anything makes her "angry" or threatens her life.....her power cranks up a bunch of levels.

When the Storm Troopers are in the woods, and she shoots and misses the first time she gets pissed and shoots and kills him with "no" prior experience with a blaster.

When Kylo tries to read her mind for the map she gets angry and stops him.

When Finn gets cut down. She gets angry and uses force pull for the first time.

Kylo recognizes it and stops mid battle just to offer to teach her. When he drives her to the literal edge of a cliff....she "looks" like she is centering herself but whose to say she is channeling the light side there....then instead when she turns on him you can visibly see rage fueling her as she cuts him down. Go back and rewatch that specific scene, pause right after she opens her eyes to attack, the face she makes is pure dark side rage. And she keeps that anger all the way through until Kylo is on the ground.

Literally everytime she uses the force in a "unreasonably" powerful way anger is a factor and it happens like a freight train primarily one scene after another AFTER the force night terror scene.

Most telling Snoke seems happy about Rey, like another Sith is back on the board or something.

Then to cap it all off....when she finally tracks down Luke.....he doesnt just look sad....he looks like a moment he has been dreading a long time has finally come to bare....Rey's force power developed on its own and now he has to deal with keeping her from becoming the obviously hate fueled possibly naturally born sith that she is.

Im not saying TFA explained all of that well, or even demonstrated that as what was happening to the audience in an obvious way....but I would be shocked if TLJ or EP9 doesnt provide some legitimate satifafying explanation for her absurd force sensitivity.

She might not end up a Sith in the end but she seems awfully close to already being one.

Just ask yourself this the next time you rewatch TFA....how many of her most "force sensitive" moments are motivated by something other than anger?

Maybe the rage face she makes when she takes the advantage in the fight with Kylo is just the way that actor looks when stressed....but im hard pressed to believe that entire scene in particular wasnt carefully planned to look the way it did down to the last intentional detail.

Until she channels that anger she is getting beat badly by Kylo...then after she lets the dark side consume her everything changes. She even calls this the force in that scene...but doesnt know...its just the dark side she is using.

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

So....general question here....why do sooo many people take issue with Rey being so "strong" with the force so quickly?

Its kinda obviously telegraphed as something unusual that its pretty clearly an intentional plot device. **** the name of the movie is Force Awakens. Finn finds the force first....in a moment of goodness in face of evil, Rey finds it second generally combined with anger and fear. Her absurd ability with the force sets up a huge amount of the intrigue with the next episode. If they dont follow up on it with a good explanation ill have my pitch fork out with the everyone else.

It was jarring at first definitely, but everytime I rewatch TFA it becomes more and more obvious that Rey is this kind of force sensitive time bomb. Outside of the Falcon Flip tie fighter kill she doesnt really demonstrate any inexplicable force ability until after she has that "force nightmare" which if you watch it and listen to it.....seems like she is have a serious encounter with the dark side more than anything else. After that scene her force capability sky rockets after running off into the woods.

After that vision the moment anything makes her "angry" or threatens her life.....her power cranks up a bunch of levels.

When the Storm Troopers are in the woods, and she shoots and misses the first time she gets pissed and shoots and kills him with "no" prior experience with a blaster.

When Kylo tries to read her mind for the map she gets angry and stops him.

When Finn gets cut down. She gets angry and uses force pull for the first time.

Kylo recognizes it and stops mid battle just to offer to teach her. When he drives her to the literal edge of a cliff....she "looks" like she is centering herself but whose to say she is channeling the light side there....then instead when she turns on him you can visibly see rage fueling her as she cuts him down. Go back and rewatch that specific scene, pause right after she opens her eyes to attack, the face she makes is pure dark side rage. And she keeps that anger all the way through until Kylo is on the ground.

Literally everytime she uses the force in a "unreasonably" powerful way anger is a factor and it happens like a freight train primarily one scene after another AFTER the force night terror scene.

Most telling Snoke seems happy about Rey, like another Sith is back on the board or something.

Then to cap it all off....when she finally tracks down Luke.....he doesnt just look sad....he looks like a moment he has been dreading a long time has finally come to bare....Rey's force power developed on its own and now he has to deal with keeping her from becoming the obviously hate fueled possibly naturally born sith that she is.

Im not saying TFA explained all of that well, or even demonstrated that as what was happening to the audience in an obvious way....but I would be shocked if TLJ or EP9 doesnt provide some legitimate satifafying explanation for her absurd force sensitivity.

She might not end up a Sith in the end but she seems awfully close to already being one.

Just ask yourself this the next time you rewatch TFA....how many of her most "force sensitive" moments are motivated by something other than anger?

Maybe the rage face she makes when she takes the advantage in the fight with Kylo is just the way that actor looks when stressed....but im hard pressed to believe that entire scene in particular wasnt carefully planned to look the way it did down to the last intentional detail.

Until she channels that anger she is getting beat badly by Kylo...then after she lets the dark side consume her everything changes. She even calls this the force in that scene...but doesnt know...its just the dark side she is using.

I love your insight at the angle of Rey going darkside. It makes sense and would make an interesting story, being Disney though I fear they will ruin it with Kylo returning to good to cheese the whole deal by showing her the light side is stronger and together they destroy Snoke...I threw up a little thinking about the possibility. If she's bad let her be bad and die for her trouble.

TFA is my least favorite SW film. I also enjoyed Jurassic World more than TFA the year they both came out. Seeing as how they fired the director of JW to hire the director of TFA, you can imagine I'm not very pleased.

Although I do admit I think his writing was more the culprit than his directing of TFA. But it sound like he's involved with the writing again...so yeah...

I would check out Book of Henry before crying over the loss of Trevorrow.

People are doing lists and stuff, so I'll jump on the bandwagon. In release date chronological order:

IV : A very cool movie. The special effects are awesome - even by today's standard, they can still immerse you. I wish Han had shot first, but that's just me. There are some strange things like Leia consoling Luke about losing Obi-Wan when Alderaan had just blown up, but it can be reasoned out easily enough. No glaring plot holes and a cohesive, well placed story puts this movie at number 4 on my list.

V : Very epic, but actually my least favourite of the original trilogy. I'm just not a fan of the Dagobah or Cloud city segments. Hoth was very awesome though. The fight between Luke and Vader in the freezing chamber was epic. The best thing I can say about it is that a named, main Character actually "died" by being frozen in carbonite. It's at number 5 on my list for good storytelling, but poor pacing for my personal tastes.

VI : My favourite of the original trilogy. An epic story with extraordinarily competent villains (setting a trap with a half-built death star would have won the war), real stakes (Vader dies!) and if you try to think of Ewoks as the force hallucinations of both sides it makes them a lot more bearable. It sits at number 3 on my list.

I : A pretty nasty movie. I consider the "Negotiations", podrace and final battle to be the movie proper, and skip most else. Anakin's backstory is cool and all, but they could have chosen a more intense kid to play him, I think. Jar Jar sucks (definitely the worst incarnation of Abeloth), but I skip all his scenes at this point. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan more or less carry the film. It sits at number 7 on my list for a fair plot, but horrible characters.

II : Bad, but not TPM bad in my books. The awesomeness of Jedi - especially Yoda and Kenobi - really shine in this movie more than any other. Anakin watching Smhi die makes me cry. The action is good, and the pacing is good except for... Freakin' romance! I was cringing 10 seconds in, and had to make a conscious effort to stop. Jar Jar was tolerable here, but Padakin was utterly despicable. This movie is 6 on my list for awesome action, but horrible suspension of disbelief killing.

III : One of my favourites, because I grew up with it. I recognise the flaws and accept them, but I overlook them as I have always done. The action scenes are amazing and the political scenes were bearable when I was eight, and actually pretty great now. The dampener was Padakin again, but at least Anakin gets sick of it and chokes her to stop the flirting, right? It's at 2 on my list for the awesomeness of tying 5 other movies together neatly, and for epic battle scenes. It's weighted down by poor romance.

VII : This will be a long one...

I do not like this movie. It's in my 5 least favourite movies list, and it would be my #1 most hated if it didn't have a character death.

Every character is badly done. Rey is more or less brain dead, and survive s through a combination of plot armour, duct tape and blood infusions fro Han and Chewie. Finn is a turncoat with a large wardrobe - he constantly changes opinions, convictions and loyalties. Kylo is an emo teen that is not portrayed as talented in any way except being durable (like a brick), and yet is supposed to have taken down Luke's academy. BB-8 is an R2-D2 ripoff, but he's actually pretty cool, so I can live with it. Leia is nonexistent, which is a disappointment. Han and Chewie are as talented as ever, but ruined by poor and/or nonsensical dialogue designed to elicit cheap laughs. Han's death on that platform was utterly obvious, and even this movie's Han wasn't portrayed as that stupid. Snoke is... Who? And Luke - despite being the center of pretty much everything forever - doesn't even get dialogue, for the sake of a cliffhanger. That's it for characters, on to plot devices.
The overall plot is copy-pasted from ANH, except starkiller base is bigger and.... That's about it. The opening scene isn't explained in any way. Kylo's opening, however, was the best part of the film for me. BB-8 being found by Rey is unlikely, but acceptable. Rey attacking finn for wearing a generic brown jacket is her first dumb move. Rey and Finn somehow powering up the Falcon while under fire after it hasn't moved for years is even more absurd. When they do escape, somehow being captured by Han while in the system is an absurd coincidence. The Rathtar escape is... awful. Maz is an okay character, but why they stopped there instead of going straight to the resistance is beyond me. Poe flies to the rescue, so he somehow made it off Jakku and backk to his secret base before Finn could, despite being absent from the crash site and (presumably) without water entirely.

The entire Maz fight is ridiculous, we all know it. Rey's unerring accuracy with a weapon she's using for the first time ever. Finn somehow using a lightsaber semi-competently against a trained soldier - who himself threw away his gun to fight hand to hand. And Kylo somehow being allowed to escape from the clutches of "one **** of a pilot". The starkiller base fight was a rehash of ANH entirely, except for the lightsaber dual at the end. Oh, wait...

The dual between Rey and Kylo had only one ending. Rey dead, Kylo escaping alive. Unless Rey is a Skywalker there is no reasonable cause for her inexplicable skill. Starkiller base is shown as having hundreds of TIE fighters on a single platform, and they were ordered to scramble as soon as the attack began, yet you see maybe 4 of them in total.

Overall, I regretted watching this movie. The Heir to the Empire series would have been infinitely better. E'd even take the Yuuzahn Vong over TFA. It gets 8th place on my list for sucking in every category except CGI.

Rogue One : My favourite of the movies to date (only the last two seasons of The Clone Wars top it for me). Superb cinematography, at least good acting (no, the characters are mostly not likeable - they did pretty well at that), and an amazing plot. The Vader fan service was epic, and short, just like fan service should be. It's got a slow buildup but a massive payoff, which is typical for Star Wars.

tl;dr

TFA sucks, ANH, ESB, Rots and Rogue one are awesome.

I'd just like to comment on a general thing I've seen in this thread and many others:

Being on the Dark Side does not make one a Sith. Just like believing in a god doesn't necessarily mean you're a priest. Using the Light Side doesn't make you a Jedi, and using the Dark Side does not make you a Sith. Sith and Jedi both require extensive amounts of training and knowledge in their respective 'cults' to be considered among their ranks. The Sith at this point are no more. That much has been confirmed over and over. The prophesy has come to pass. The Chosen One destroyed the Sith. There are still Dark Siders out there, like Snoke and Kylo Ren, but they are not Sith. They are something new and different. Just as Rey isn't currently a Jedi, even though we know she is strong in the Force. She has no training that we know of. Now, she may very well become a Jedi in the next movie, but she will never become a Sith. Because the Sith are gone from the galaxy. However, that's not to say that she won't end up becoming a Knight of Ren, or just your typical Dark Side user like Asajj Ventress.

Some of the issues of TFA have been named already, but apart from the science holes (why even have planetary shields when you can just jump into/underneath them? Why did the rebellion not just do this at Endor?) one of the biggest issues was the extremely bad clipping and extreme railroading of events.

So I am really concerned about the new coming films. Cycling through directors is not at good sign. Look at how badly clipped TFA and R1 are, and these did not change directors. R1 was cool though, albeit being a mess.

I you really want to see what I found positive or neutral about TFA, you can endure (suffer?) my wall of text I wrote back then:

I'll nevertheless post the negatives from that post here:

"THE BAD
This film was so rushed. And so full of plot devices and plot holes, characters are just railroaded along with a number of seemingly stupid events and reasons (should one write "not-reasons"?)
A lot of posters here say, that ANH is full of holes as well. Yes, OK, but at least it has the right speed. And this would be all the more be a reason to NOT do that mistake with lots of plot holes again.

Too few things explained. While it is totally OK and actually good to keep a mystery aura by leaving some things unexplained, some thing have to be explained.
E.g. the thing about factions involved. People here draw a lot analogue to ANH being unclear as well. But ANH opening crawl clearly states the 2 factions and their relation. TFA states the 3 factions, but according to the text the FO
solely is out after Luke. Which might be Kylo's aim, but Hux is out after something else. And destroying the senate's seat has nothing to do with Luke. Only 2 more sentences in the opening would have helped a lot.

I like reading. I like vast tomes. However, whereading a book is REQUIRED to understand a film, than it IS a bad film. Then you can just stay with the books, no need to even make the film or watch it.
The argument made here "read the books, everything is explained there" is just stupid.

Maz Kanata being "a 1000 years" - so cheesy. Would have been a lot more atmospheric and mysterious (and less Yoda copy&paste simultaneously outdoing Yoda by about 200years) by just stating she has been around for ages, nobody knows how old she really is.

Phasma totally underdeveloped. No reason given why she - as seemingly fanatic FO follower - just not let herself killed or somehow sound a alarm, but instead lowers the shields without much resistance.

Too many fast cuts. A general Hollywood problems since mid90s , accelerated beginning 00s. Actually TFA does not overdo too much, at least in the melee sequences you still could follow the moves, and who is doing what (a lot of modern action films you cant). But the fighter sequences, esp with Poe?

General problems with time and distances in this movie. Space is so **** BIG, and mostly empty.
E.g. the beam sequence is just BS. First its moving slow, then suddenly it moves several parsecs, and still it is observable from several planets? Anyone involved in the film's making looked in real life at Mars and Venus in the nightsky?....probably not.

The "Giant Eyelashes of Doom"
Oh come on, for the force's sake come up with something new and creative! And if its just a giant loadingstation for antimatter-loaded-freighters FTL-jump-pushed into another planet's sun to explode it.
Or big conception not far from the sun moving with the sun all the time shadowing the planet - artificiell semipermanent solar eclipse. Ere comes the dark side.... (Read the Zahn triology decades ago, if I remember correctly there was
some abysmal large system of opening umbrellas really near the planet, shading it - would be less resource craving if you do it further away from the planet and nearer to the sun). Voila you have an epic structure to attack. Without
killing off the FO base already in the first movie. Instead after destroying the sunshading thingie, attacking the FO base would come later in later movies.

No, again, a just bigger Deathstar with AGAIN a stupid achilles heel TOTALLY unguarded, even after FO clearly sees WHAT the handful of resistance X-wings are attacking!! Where have all the TIEs gone?

Speaking of stupid x-wings, why not sending something bigger (b-wings?, Y-wings?, something more capital?), or if they only have x-wings at least use bombs and proton torpedos. At the very least let Ackbar or whoever TELL us why they send only all-purpose snubfighters only equipped with lasers.

Where did FO get the resources to build it (already asked months ago on this forum by several of us). Why did Resistance not identify the threat? Or were they so peacewishing ala Munich/Tcheslovakia 1938 that they know of it, but they
just hoped FO will not use it? Not very plausible with how FO is shown in the movie. It could maybe argued that they know it was somewhere, but not where. Either way, suddenly the Resistance has so precise intelligence that they know down to the second when it will fire, despite it being lightyears away. No way a janitor could deliver so much details in a few minutes."

12 hours ago, evanger said:

To respect that which has come before in this shared universe setting, I would think a good idea would be to have the First Order be more rag-tag outfit, equipment-wise (but super fanatical, philosophy-wise). If they, the under-resourced remains of the losing side of the Galactic Civil War, hiding in the shadows out of necessity, can eclipse everything Palpatine did, that's a shame. It de-values the OT. Makes those epic struggles a mere prelude to this derivative re-hash.

Please. No more superweapons. No more mindless bigger = better.

47 minutes ago, Astech said:

Every character is badly done. Rey is more or less brain dead, and survive s through a combination of plot armour, duct tape and blood infusions fro Han and Chewie. Finn is a turncoat with a large wardrobe - he constantly changes opinions, convictions and loyalties. Kylo is an emo teen that is not portrayed as talented in any way except being durable (like a brick), and yet is supposed to have taken down Luke's academy. BB-8 is an R2-D2 ripoff, but he's actually pretty cool, so I can live with it. Leia is nonexistent, which is a disappointment. Han and Chewie are as talented as ever, but ruined by poor and/or nonsensical dialogue designed to elicit cheap laughs. Han's death on that platform was utterly obvious, and even this movie's Han wasn't portrayed as that stupid. Snoke is... Who? And Luke - despite being the center of pretty much everything forever - doesn't even get dialogue, for the sake of a cliffhanger. That's it for characters, on to plot devices.
The overall plot is copy-pasted from ANH, except starkiller base is bigger and.... That's about it. The opening scene isn't explained in any way. Kylo's opening, however, was the best part of the film for me. BB-8 being found by Rey is unlikely, but acceptable. Rey attacking finn for wearing a generic brown jacket is her first dumb move. Rey and Finn somehow powering up the Falcon while under fire after it hasn't moved for years is even more absurd. When they do escape, somehow being captured by Han while in the system is an absurd coincidence. The Rathtar escape is... awful. Maz is an okay character, but why they stopped there instead of going straight to the resistance is beyond me. Poe flies to the rescue, so he somehow made it off Jakku and backk to his secret base before Finn could, despite being absent from the crash site and (presumably) without water entirely.

The entire Maz fight is ridiculous, we all know it. Rey's unerring accuracy with a weapon she's using for the first time ever. Finn somehow using a lightsaber semi-competently against a trained soldier - who himself threw away his gun to fight hand to hand. And Kylo somehow being allowed to escape from the clutches of "one **** of a pilot". The starkiller base fight was a rehash of ANH entirely, except for the lightsaber dual at the end. Oh, wait...

Indeed. I feel like a lot of little changes could have made TFA a much more watchable film for existing SW fans.

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Starkiller base is shown as having hundreds of TIE fighters on a single platform, and they were ordered to scramble as soon as the attack began, yet you see maybe 4 of them in total.

In fairness, you do see a lot in that initial cutscene where the bad guys move in to hit Poe's forces.

• I dont' want to say it's an awful film, and I don't think it is. I just don't think it's as good as it could have been.
• It needed to be a fairly generic plot, because it is essentially a reboot. For a lot of people, this is their first experience of Star Wars at the cinema, maybe their first experience of star wars period. It needs to be a nice, simple introduction to the universe with 'these are the good guys, these are the bad guys, this is an X-wing and this is a TIE fighter, Pew, Pew Pew.' Rogue One, as a Star Wars Story spin-off, not a 'saga' film, is allowed to assume you've watched the original trilogy, and is better for it because you don't have to spend any precious time on universe-explaining exposition to someone from the middle of nowhere.
• There are plenty of things that may be true but aren't referenced, or that could be true, or that minor changes could have made far more impressive:
  • Palpatine loved his superweapons. Making Starkiller Base an imperial research project that the First Order just got operational makes far more sense than them building it themselves. It also would make sense why they legged it to that specific part of the galactic fringe, if Snoke and whoever knew it was there .
  • Starkiller base might well have been 'cheaper and easier' to build since it's scooping out bits of a planet rather than building a free-moving, moon-sized structure. But still, a bit of history on it might have been appreciated. We know that even the empire didn't go "surprise! death star! and finish it with no-one knowing...."
  • Leia not getting enough screen time is part of the Resistance/Republic storyline of trying to convince people that the First Order was up to something big being chopped. Leaving that in might have made it easier to understand what was going on, and Leia's aide (the one on the balcony on hosnian) might have been someone you actually gave a darn about.
  • The first order having bigger star destroyers I can buy if they have a lot less. Maintaining a handful of really expensive ships that are essentially their operating bases makes sense for the same reason the TIE/fo makes sense - spending more per head on your fighters when trained pilots become a rare asset is logical.
  • The whole 'TR-8-R' stormtrooper fight bugs me too because there is no reason for this one guy to throw away his gun, especially since he carries a weapon we see no other trooper using. If I was writing that, I'd have made that be Phasma. It would give the character something much more impressive to do and you'd get a sense that she's actually a genuinely dangerous opponent. An officer having a melee weapon - especially one meant to stop a 'saber, makes sense for the first order, and her taking a shot from the bowcaster and being injured but not killed would actually have s hown stormtrooper armour achieve something . Plus her injuries would have helped explain how she does literally nothing to put up a fight when she gets mugged on starkiller base.
  • Seeing the starkiller base shot from Takodana. I know physics in star wars is screwy at best but this makes next to no sense - and more importantly makes no sense whilst adding nothing to the story .
  • JJ Abrams has a thing - you see it in star trek, as well - that apparently FTL travel takes about three seconds to a minute from anywhere to anywhere else. This just feels awkward, because 'stuff done whilst travelling' was a big part of the original trilogy and, for that matter, Rogue One, be it plot-driving conversations or even jedi training 101.

Really wasn't overly impressed with TFA mostly due to the reboot nature and just how unoriginal it was. The characters were just too formualic to me to have any lasting impression. Ray as the ultimate mary-sue with the extreme ability to do anything is just... crap Didn't care for Finn as for someone who trained their whole life as a stormtrooper certainly was able to turn traitor and just be a rubbish person pretty quickly.

Star killer and all that.. groan, probably the worst part for me for sure.... I am a huge star wars fan but I only watched TFA once.

12 hours ago, LordBlades said:

On the other hand , Palpatine was, AFAIK the most successful Sith in a long time (at least after the Rule of Two was instated). All he achieved came after a lifetime of scheming where he eventually harnessed the resources of almost the entire galaxy to his goals.

Then you get Snoke outdoing Palpatine, at least in the military department, with a fraction of time, resources and pretty much what's left of Palpatine's forces after 3 military disasters.

To me at least it.s exceedingly hard to rationalize that in-universe.

Unless Snoke is Darth Plagueis the Wise?

Palp proclaims he killed him in his sleep, however, Darth Plaqueis was "so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midichlorians to create life… He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying."

Qui-Gon, Yoda, Ben and for some weird reason, Anakin all carried on after their death, what is there saying that Darth Plagueis wasn't able to restore his physical body? Also, we know what 3 long minutes of constant "UNLIMITED POWWWWWERRRR" can do to a man so imagine what a lifetime of it would do to you, let alone bringing yourself back to life?

Now assuming that, imagine the amount of influence he would have in the outer rim/fringes of galaxy or even within the Empire itself? Allowing his formal apprentice to carry out a plan to which he THINKS is his own but in reality, it is all Plagueis. That would go some to explaining how the First Order had access to resources beyond their scope.

Just like the Illusive Man or Shadow Broker (Mass Effect), considered a small time player on the galactic stage (or a myth) yet able to influence the fate of humanity.

Like they say, "The Devil's greatest trick was convincing the world that he didn't exist."

(FYI - I know this is reaching by the way but it's interesting to talk about. )

51 minutes ago, william1134 said:

Really wasn't overly impressed with TFA mostly due to the reboot nature and just how unoriginal it was. The characters were just too formualic to me to have any lasting impression. Ray as the ultimate mary-sue with the extreme ability to do anything is just... crap Didn't care for Finn as for someone who trained their whole life as a stormtrooper certainly was able to turn traitor and just be a rubbish person pretty quickly.

Star killer and all that.. groan, probably the worst part for me for sure.... I am a huge star wars fan but I only watched TFA once.

Personally, if I was writing the series, I would keep Rey this way in the first but make her a little bit more emotional. In the second, I would have her force abilites grow faster than her control and in the third, I would have her absolutely go full Phoenix and succumb to power, with the intention of using it for good. However, with Luke not able to bring himself to kill her (not the Jedi way), Kylo has to.

Epic confrontation, Evil MUST defeat Good for the sake of humanity. Additionally, with Rey only knowing light side abilities but Kylo knowing both, he is the perfect counter, using a plethora of abilities, furiously focused yet ruthlessly calm, a perfect storm (and something I know Adam Driver is excellent at portraying). I know a few people that would be conflicted with Rey at that point.

It would be CM Punk v John Cena (Money in the Bank) all over again!

On ‎13‎.‎09‎.‎2017 at 10:42 AM, Viktus106 said:

Even if Kylo Ren held the Falcon in place using the force to stop them from escaping, people would still hate him.

That kind of BS would be better grounds on which to hate a force-using character than most complaints I've heard about Kylo so far.

25 minutes ago, DampfGecko said:

That kind of BS would be better grounds on which to hate a force-using character than most complaints I've heard about Kylo so far.

Telling me you wouldn't like an epic scene where by he force suspends a ship in mid air?

I mean, if Starkiller can pull a Imperial Star Destroyer from holding orbit into the planet surface, despite them trying to course correct, whilst fighting another Jedi, surely Ren can hold the Falcon for a minute or two before becoming exhausted.

4 minutes ago, Viktus106 said:

Telling me you wouldn't like an epic scene where by he force suspends a ship in mid air?

I mean, if Starkiller can pull a Imperial Star Destroyer from holding orbit into the planet surface, despite them trying to course correct, whilst fighting another Jedi, surely Ren can hold the Falcon for a minute or two before becoming exhausted.

I would like Luke or Leia to freeze a ship in place. The Falcon has class III plot armour - it cannot be stopped, damaged or otherwise dissuaded by anything.

Starkiller is also now non-canon, I believe. Palpatine supposedly created wormholes to swallow enemy fleets, so never trust the old EU.

7 minutes ago, Viktus106 said:

Telling me you wouldn't like an epic scene where by he force suspends a ship in mid air?

I mean, if Starkiller can pull a Imperial Star Destroyer from holding orbit into the planet surface, despite them trying to course correct, whilst fighting another Jedi, surely Ren can hold the Falcon for a minute or two before becoming exhausted.

That's what I'm telling you, yes. If that happens, wouldn't we all be scratching our heads why Vader didn't do it on Hoth?

I like The Force Unleashed, but as a game. Star Wars is far better off without Force Users so overpowered it relegates every non-sensitive Being to irrelevancy just by existing. The sacrifice of thousands, if not millions, has no consequence if it all boils down to "the winning side won because they had/ turned the most potent force user to fight for them".

I'm okay with the fact that "the force has no Limits". Force- users, on the other hand, should have theirs clearly defined.