Just now, Tonbo Karasu said:

My answers are

The Revised Core does not contain brand new cards, although there is some new card art on existing cards.

Cards which are no longer in the current core are no longer legal.

Cards from Deluxe expansions remain evergreen.

Based on what I have read around the place.

I guess based on this, if Tsuruchi comes out in a Deluxe Expansion I'll actually be rather relieved that he/she/it didn't come out in the Core.

4 years is, clearly, plenty long for you to have gotten your money out of a product.

That said, did they ever advertise the Core as "evergreen"? If so, this announcement means they just straight up lied. While the end results of the lie don't bother me, I am bothered that the company went back on their word.

If they never actually said that the Core was "evergreen", then there is no problem.

So yeah the ANR context is obviously different from the L5R context, from the ground up. What I would like to see for L5R is

• no evergreen cards
• rotations between revised core sets that encompass complete major story arcs
• RCS with new cards taking into account story development

4 minutes ago, Yogo Gohei said:

4 years is, clearly, plenty long for you to have gotten your money out of a product.

That said, did they ever advertise the Core as "evergreen"? If so, this announcement means they just straight up lied. While the end results of the lie don't bother me, I am bothered that the company went back on their word.

If they never actually said that the Core was "evergreen", then there is no problem.

Yes, that has been a core tenant of FFG's whole LCG sales model. Core sets and Deluxe sets are advertised as "always legal". However, this upsets the competitive players, since it does not give any avenue for fixing mistakes. To be fair, this is only important for competitive play. Everyone else is still welcome to play with whatever cards they want.

6 minutes ago, Manchu said:

So yeah the ANR context is obviously different from the L5R context, from the ground up. What I would like to see for L5R is

• no evergreen cards
• rotations between revised core sets that encompass complete major story arcs
• RCS with new cards taking into account story development

Same basic sales model, so same basic idea. In part the ANR context is that they initially were planning on even longer arcs, but this is to somewhat correct for that. I wouldn't get your hopes up too much for something vastly different. We might see is faster rotation.

As far as I know, the LCG model has been really profitable for FFG so far. I think they are trying to give some leeway to competitive players (who are the only ones who really care about this stuff), but besides possibly the issue of the sustainability of games, there is no real reason for FFG to change their model, especially as has been reiterated many times, the competitive players, while the most vocal, are the vast minority of people who give FFG money.

In the "nothing is evergreen" context of a RCS

• dropping CS cards
• picking up certain Dynasty Pack and Deluxe Cards
• adding brand new cards

I would favor a 3- or 4-year rotation period.

I believe the RCS concept is extremely friendly to new players. I also think the RCS concept, if applied correctly to L5R, could be very friendly to L5R fans who would like to "travel back in time" once in a while to play in eras gone by. You just take your OCS arc box off the shelf and there is baby face Toturi and Shoju full of piss and vinegar, etc. Nostalgia party.

28 minutes ago, Yogo Gohei said:

4 years is, clearly, plenty long for you to have gotten your money out of a product.

That said, did they ever advertise the Core as "evergreen"? If so, this announcement means they just straight up lied. While the end results of the lie don't bother me, I am bothered that the company went back on their word.

If they never actually said that the Core was "evergreen", then there is no problem.

The concept of rotation itself is a relatively recent development, as it was first announced at the 2014 World Championship Weekend. So it's not so much that they lied, as that the nature of LCGs themselves had been long overdue for a change.

22 minutes ago, Mirith said:

Yes, that has been a core tenant of FFG's whole LCG sales model. Core sets and Deluxe sets are advertised as "always legal". However, this upsets the competitive players, since it does not give any avenue for fixing mistakes. To be fair, this is only important for competitive play. Everyone else is still welcome to play with whatever cards they want.

And now I am officially bothered by this.

If you say something will always be tournament legal, and then you make it so that thing is not tournament legal, you have lied to me.

I understand, and agree, with the reasons they did it. But don't lie to me and still expect me to be happy giving you my money. It creates ill will.

An example I love to give of a company handling this correctly is how WotC dealt with the changes to standard legality a few years back. Under the old standard rotation, a set was legal from between 2 years to 16(?) months. Under the new rotation, a set would be legal from 18 to 12 months. They made a BIG deal about this shortly before the first "only legal for 18 months" set was to be released so that their customers knew exactly what they were buying and wouldn't have the rug pulled out from underneath them after they had made their purchase.

Whether or not you agreed with their decision, they were very upfront about the change. Everyone knew what they were buying and could make their purchasing decisions accordingly.

Here, FFG promised something would always be tournament legal, and now it won't be. That bothers me.

Do whatever you are going to do. We, the playerbase, will stomach whatever your decision is.

But don't lie to us.

2 minutes ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

The concept of rotation itself is a relatively recent development, as it was first announced at the 2014 World Championship Weekend. So it's not so much that they lied, as that the nature of LCGs themselves had been long overdue for a change.

This was posted while I was writing the above post. If they didn't lie, I am content.

But the rest of my post still stands.

Yeah, when rotation was announced, most of the currently-running LCGs had already been launched (AGoT was still on its first LCG version; it was rebooted because it had too many cycles out to introduce rotation).

Just now, Khudzlin said:

Yeah, when rotation was announced, most of the currently-running LCGs had already been launched (AGoT was still on its first LCG version; it was rebooted because it had too many cycles out to introduce rotation).

Was rotation announced with the start of ANR?

1 minute ago, Mirith said:

Was rotation announced with the start of ANR?

Nope. Even Conquest had already been released when rotation was out. AGoT2 is the first competitive LCG designed and announced with rotation in mind. All competitive LCGs that came before were originally designed with a full evergreen cardpool (cooperative LCGs still work that way, because rotation doesn't apply to them).

2 minutes ago, Yogo Gohei said:

*snip*

Just want to play a little devil's advocate, namely that I am unsure if claiming FFG might have been lying has any strong evidence. Surely a company can re-evaluate the model of their product as it develops over the years. I'd imagine it is nearly impossible to predict how a game will evolve over the course of several years of its life, and how the inherent pros and cons of its initial model may warp the product and ultimately be to its detriment. At which point there's a choice to be made: stick to the initial model at the cost of the game's health, or go back on your word for the potential benefits of altering the design philosophy. I guess my point is that realizing that your early promises aren't sustainable for the game is, in my opinion, by far the lesser of two evils and in no way is proof of an intentional falsehood or scheme.

Ultimately, if you're playing competitively, you ought to be following the monthly packs as they release anyway, and the Revised Core contains reprints only. You aren't stuck with unusable cards, any more than you knew you would be when you agreed to play a game with a rotation schedule. And if you're not playing competitively, rotation should not concern you. This is strictly a way to keep the entry barrier lower for new players. The only people this will actually impact are A) tournament players who do not purchase every pack, and B) collectors who require the new artwork.

1 hour ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

You aren't stuck with unusable cards, any more than you knew you would be when you agreed to play a game with a rotation schedule.

Except for the Core cards that were removed from the Revised Core. Cards that everyone was told were evergreen. Those are pretty unusable now.

19 minutes ago, Yogo Gohei said:

Except for the Core cards that were removed from the Revised Core. Cards that everyone was told were evergreen. Those are pretty unusable now.

To a competitive player, yes, but to a casual player, I don't think they will care as much? They will keep playing with whatever cards they say, and might not even notice that FFG announced new deck building rules for tournaments. The rules themselves are unchanged, so the cards are still playable.

ANR getting a revised core in no way suggests that L5R will get one upon rotation. As has been previously mentioned, ANR was released before rotation existed and so there was no product planning strategy in place to deal with potential problem cards. Designing with rotation in mind makes it easier to foresee which products receive cards meant for rotation. There are still unforeseen events, so it's not impossible for a new core set to come out 4-5 years from now.

Is there some reason that L5R cannot have multiple formats? I.e. single core, standard, and eternal?

Standard is the current Core set plus big expansions and all dynasty packs printed after the current Core set. This way when the revised core comes out all the people that have been there from the beginning will not have to buy new cards as they will likely have them all. Any new players wanting to start fresh and play standard just need to get the new core and catch up on the deluxe expansions then start purchasing dynasty packs printed after the new core set.

For eternal.......anything goes, including roles. Maybe offer special story prizes but keep this format to a minimum, similar to the way MTG does legacy.

*edit*

Actually I'd like to see this:

Single core: release events / draft events using only the most recent core set.

Standard: most recent core set + last two big expansions + all dynasty packs printed after most recent core set.

Extended: most recent core set + all big expansions + all dynasty packs printed after the most recent core set.

Eternal: anything goes

4 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Is there some reason that L5R cannot have multiple formats? I.e. single core, standard, and eternal?

Standard is the current Core set plus big expansions and all dynasty packs printed after the current Core set. This way when the revised core comes out all the people that have been there from the beginning will not have to buy new cards as they will likely have them all. Any new players wanting to start fresh and play standard just need to get the new core and catch up on the deluxe expansions then start purchasing dynasty packs printed after the new core set.

For eternal.......anything goes, including roles. Maybe offer special story prizes but keep this format to a minimum, similar to the way MTG does legacy.

You can always support such formats, but we may never see FFG support this due to time/money involved. However fan run formats are always a thing. ANR does not even support the idea of an "Eternal Format" until Oct 1st.

And someone said people wouldn't bring up "Single core" as a format again.

10 minutes ago, Mirith said:

And someone said people wouldn't bring up "Single core" as a format again.

What's wrong with single core? It's a great platform to introduce new players to the competitive scence, or the veteran just looking for a change of pace. As new core sets get printed there would be a whole new feel to each core set. Different clan parings and strategies to try.

59 minutes ago, Yogo Gohei said:

Except for the Core cards that were removed from the Revised Core. Cards that everyone was told were evergreen. Those are pretty unusable now.

No; the cards that disappear from the Core Set are replaced with reprints of cards in previous monthly packs - cards that we thought would all disappear from the environment. Thus we net the same number of cards cycling out, as we would have otherwise, just on a different schedule than was once thought.

58 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

What's wrong with single core? It's a great platform to introduce new players to the competitive scence, or the veteran just looking for a change of pace. As new core sets get printed there would be a whole new feel to each core set. Different clan parings and strategies to try.

I got in a discussion with someone on discord where they were saying, "Single Core format would never be a thing again." I didn't agree.

I personally do not like single core, as you play more neutrals than clan cards, but that is me.

1 hour ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Is there some reason that L5R cannot have multiple formats? I.e. single core, standard, and eternal?

FFG doesn't really even support formats they created for other games. See AGoT 2nd Ed Melee.

Single core is great for players who can't get additional cores, but that's about it.

20 minutes ago, qwertyuiop said:

FFG doesn't really even support formats they created for other games. See AGoT 2nd Ed Melee.

Single core is great for players who can't get additional cores, but that's about it.

You just basically said. "Single core is great for players who can't find more" which is not a problem this game should have. Not saying it won't, as it appears to be very anticipated, but still.

I just reread the rotation articles and nowhere does it say Core sets are evergreen. In fact it doesn't say anything is evergreen. Interesting.

1 hour ago, Mirith said:

You just basically said. "Single core is great for players who can't find more" which is not a problem this game should have. Not saying it won't, as it appears to be very anticipated, but still.

Yep. That's almost exactly what I said. Core set scarcity is not uncommon upon release and single core format is engaging for about as long as it takes to get a second or third core set.