i failed fighting retaliate enemy which i am not engaged with . in that moment two investigators(me-fighter, and another one who is engaged) are in the same location as that enemy. what would happen now?

Each time an investigator fails a skill test while attacking a ready enemy with the retaliate keyword, after applying all results for that skill test, that enemy performs an attack against the attacking investigator. An enemy does not exhaust after performing a retaliate attack. =This attack occurs whether the enemy is engaged with the attacking investigator or not.

Nasty I am afraid.

Enemy attacks you dealing damage and horror and you deal damage to the engaged investigator because you missed.

all damage (all damage bonuses aplies too?) to engaged investigator? really devastating fail.

all damage bonuses too, including Vicious blow, weapon damage, etc.

Vicious blow would not do extra damage because it only does the extra damage when the test is successful.

true, i stand corrected.

Most of the time, attack damage doesn't depend on the attack succeeding, though (better not fail that Backstab or Lightning Gun attack against an enemy engaged with another investigator). The exceptions are Vicious Blow, Switchblade (both versions), Zoey's Elder Sign and Blackjack (because it specifically deals no damage in that case). Shotgun is different again, with the damage depending on the margin of success or failure.

16 hours ago, Khudzlin said:

Most of the time, attack damage doesn't depend on the attack succeeding, though (better not fail that Backstab or Lightning Gun attack against an enemy engaged with another investigator). The exceptions are Vicious Blow, Switchblade (both versions), Zoey's Elder Sign and Blackjack (because it specifically deals no damage in that case). Shotgun is different again, with the damage depending on the margin of success or failure.

Just to add to the list: the derringer is also contingent on succeeding by 2 or more, and song of the dead only does bonus damage on a skull being drawn - so could wind up as a nasty hit if you draw a skull, miss, and hit a teammate.

Oops, missed the Derringer. I'd put Song of the Dead with Shotgun, because the bonus damage depends on something other than success.

In Consideration all this nastiness if you miss, the Blackjack suddenly doesn't seem so naff!

Yeah, but nobody plays Blackjack, because it's only +1 fight and no bonus damage.

8 minutes ago, Khudzlin said:

Yeah, but nobody plays Blackjack, because it's only +1 fight and no bonus damage.

It is quite niche in it's application. I am planning to run 1 blackjack in my Mark Harrigan deck. Combined with a viscous blow or 2 it makes for an effective "rescue Manoeuvre" for Mark to swoop into a location and take out a nastie without using an action too engage.

You don't have to engage an enemy to attack it (and certainly not if it's engaged with someone else). And Mark has enough fight to have good chances of succeeding in his attacks.

I'd like to see a blackjack that is decent. Even a +1 attack, +1 damage, doesn't hit allies if you miss, would be worth it probably. No idea what kind of weapon would do something like that though unless it was a spell.

48 minutes ago, Soakman said:

I'd like to see a blackjack that is decent. Even a +1 attack, +1 damage, doesn't hit allies if you miss, would be worth it probably. No idea what kind of weapon would do something like that though unless it was a spell.

I think if they just made a higher level blackjack with the same stats and +1 damage, it would be worthwhile.

I don't think we have enough weapons to figure out their formulae yet, but I suspect a l2-l3 blackjack could fit the bill.

What I do know:

1 xp = -1 resource cost of playing a card. eg. a theoretical level 0 lightning gun should cost 11 resources to play.

Based on Switchblade l0 v l2, +1 fight = 1 xp or 1 additional resource.

Machete costs 3 with a +1 attack(cost of 1) and a conditional +1 damage (that is easy to meet). That means at least 2 xp/cost for a conditional +1 damage, so maybe a 3 for blackjack.

15 minutes ago, Jobu said:

I think if they just made a higher level blackjack with the same stats and +1 damage, it would be worthwhile.

I don't think we have enough weapons to figure out their formulae yet, but I suspect a l2-l3 blackjack could fit the bill.

What I do know:

1 xp = -1 resource cost of playing a card. eg. a theoretical level 0 lightning gun should cost 11 resources to play.

Based on Switchblade l0 v l2, +1 fight = 1 xp or 1 additional resource.

Machete costs 3 with a +1 attack(cost of 1) and a conditional +1 damage (that is easy to meet). That means at least 2 xp/cost for a conditional +1 damage, so maybe a 3 for blackjack.

Blackjack also costs 1 vs. 3. You're talking about a weapon that costs 2 fewer resources, matches the damage bonus, doesn't have the restriction, and brings an extra benefit to the table. That would make it the best weapon in the game. Seems like a lot more than a Level 3.

46 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

Blackjack also costs 1 vs. 3. You're talking about a weapon that costs 2 fewer resources, matches the damage bonus, doesn't have the restriction, and brings an extra benefit to the table. That would make it the best weapon in the game. Seems like a lot more than a Level 3.

My thought is that if Machete had a zero cost to play, it should be a level 3 card (1xp = -1 resource cost, see Leo). I am proposing a card that is level 3, costs 1 to play, has similar bonuses and a few slight benefits. (and really I rarely see Machetes weakness have an effect in most games and I rarely see balckjack kick off in a game).

I can imagine it going to 4, but not 5. I am revising up from two due to some of your points.

I don't think level 3 is that far out of bounds.

4 minutes ago, Jobu said:

I rarely see Machetes weakness have an effect in most games and I rarely see balckjack kick off in a game

It may not be much of an issue in solo, but in larger groups it basically becomes an action cost to activate. Drawing more cards will also increase the number of enemies, making that 2+ issue arise more often. Blackjack is also an action savings, in that you don't have to burn the action to engage. The tradeoff on that is that you don't get the damage boost. Giving the damage boost gives you the best of all possible worlds.

I don't think there's a single weapon in the game that gives a damage boost without some limitation - ammo, succeed by X, Machete, no resources, chance to break... something. A weapon which granted that, with not only no drawback but an extra benefit, and at a low cost... That's a problem.

5 minutes ago, Jobu said:

My thought is that if Machete had a zero cost to play, it should be a level 3 card (1xp = -1 resource cost, see Leo).

The difference between 6 and 5 is far less dramatic than the difference between 1 and 0, and the difference between 6 and 3 would be far, FAR less than the difference between 3 and free. The usefulness of resource savings is not linear.

missed this! So if an investigator is engaged and a second investigator attacks and misses then unless otherwise indicated that damage goes to the engaged investigator? If true would mean it might be safer to use an action to engage before fighting if the chances to fail are high..

Yes. But don't forget that the Engage action provokes an attack of opportunity (the exempt actions are Fight, Evade, Parley and Resign).

@Jobu just a tiny thing: xp doesn't always mean a reduction in cost. I appreciate Leo gives that model, but we've also seen for spells (Rite of Seeking) how xp can add to cost. Then again, Blinding Light 0 v 2 is 1 lower cost and 1 more damage, with a greater downside. It's a really interesting avenue for consideration, for sure!

On 9/15/2017 at 2:23 AM, Khudzlin said:

But don't forget that the Engage action provokes an attack of opportunity (the exempt actions are Fight, Evade, Parley and Resign).

This will only happen if the investigator initiating the engagement has ready enemies engaged with hiim.

From Rules reference for Attack of opportunity (emphasis mine)

Correct. Actions only provoke an attack of opportunity from enemies that were already engaged with the acting investigator.