Just now, dominosfleet said:

i can see the durability vs ships, which is obvious, though two ties are going to blow a single defender out of the water. it's faster and that's cool, but idk that the difference between 4 and 5 is THAT important, even with alpha taken into account. a single defender vs squads has an avg damage of 2.0, a tie should have 1.5. I can understand your point of 1 activation but that isn't THAT important either if you're flying something like an ISD or a quaser. add to it that with a quaser you're only getting 1 bonus die from flight controllers whereas 2 ties end up with 2 dice. mehhhh.

You're adding in factors there. I'm looking at baseline.

A Defender will, on average, do 3 damage and kill a TIE. That alpha speed is important, because it establishes the baseline of who shoots first, effectively..

In which case, there's only 1 TIE to fight back, and it won't kill a defender.

1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:

You're adding in factors there. I'm looking at baseline.

A Defender will, on average, do 3 damage and kill a TIE. That alpha speed is important, because it establishes the baseline of who shoots first, effectively..

In which case, there's only 1 TIE to fight back, and it won't kill a defender.

my mistake, 2 black 2 blue. isn't that still only 2.5?

2 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

You're adding in factors there. I'm looking at baseline.

A Defender will, on average, do 3 damage and kill a TIE. That alpha speed is important, because it establishes the baseline of who shoots first, effectively..

In which case, there's only 1 TIE to fight back, and it won't kill a defender.

Also, the game isn't played in a vacuum there will ALWAYS be added factors. I'm just trying to include likely additions.

1 minute ago, dominosfleet said:

my mistake, 2 black 2 blue. isn't that still only 2.5?

It is, amend my statement to almost on average, more often than not will kill a defender.

I've always felt like defenders were kind of the A-wings of the imps. They factor in well for players that don't want to invest heavily into squads but still have a durable, effective, defense vs them.

4 minutes ago, dominosfleet said:

Also, the game isn't played in a vacuum there will ALWAYS be added factors. I'm just trying to include likely additions.

Then do the same for the Defenders. They'll still out-shoot and out-kill TIEs, necessitating you to take eithe rexpensive aces or a 2-3 : 1 ratio of TIEs at a higher value to get the same job done.

Of course, other factors do figure into the Swarms benefit. Sloane, for one. Versus Aces, is another.

But Point for Point. On their own. Few things out there are as downright bloody efficient at tearing up enemy squadrons than a goddamn Defender.

That is the factor on which I make my basis.

Because of the multitude of variable scenarios (really, scientifically, you ahve to factor all of them or factor none of them to be un-biased, and in the impossibility of the first, I do the second), its really tricky to jduge any other way.

1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:

Then do the same for the Defenders. They'll still out-shoot and out-kill TIEs, necessitating you to take eithe rexpensive aces or a 2-3 : 1 ratio of TIEs at a higher value to get the same job done.

Of course, other factors do figure into the Swarms benefit. Sloane, for one. Versus Aces, is another.

But Point for Point. On their own. Few things out there are as downright bloody efficient at tearing up enemy squadrons than a goddamn Defender.

That is the factor on which I make my basis.

Because of the multitude of variable scenarios (really, scientifically, you ahve to factor all of them or factor none of them to be biased, and in the impossibility of the first, I do the second), its really tricky to jduge any other way.

totally off topic but I'm curious your opinion. Flight controllers, do they impact a fighter thats activated by a jendon activation. IE. I activate Stele, move him into position to attack two ships, he kills one of them because it's what he does(he was activated by a ship with FC's). Then that same ships(again, with FC's) activates Jendon, Jendon moves to w/in range of Stele and advises Stele to murder the other one, does stele get FC's for the second attack. I've argued no(against myself because i frequently run them together) because Jendon's rules don't say "add" and it's close enough to "maybe" that i don't want the advantage it would give. Is there an official ruling or, if not, your opinion?

Just now, dominosfleet said:

totally off topic but I'm curious your opinion. Flight controllers, do they impact a fighter thats activated by a jendon activation. IE. I activate Stele, move him into position to attack two ships, he kills one of them because it's what he does(he was activated by a ship with FC's). Then that same ships(again, with FC's) activates Jendon, Jendon moves to w/in range of Stele and advises Stele to murder the other one, does stele get FC's for the second attack. I've argued no(against myself because i frequently run them together) because Jendon's rules don't say "add" and it's close enough to "maybe" that i don't want the advantage it would give. Is there an official ruling or, if not, your opinion?

No, it does not.

The Squadron is not being activated by the Ship in question. It only adds during that activation. It is Jendon that is activating, so its added to his anti-squadron armament. Of course, he doesn't then use it, as he tells someone else to attack.

Full stop. End of story.

Just now, Drasnighta said:

No, it does not.

The Squadron is not being activated by the Ship in question. It only adds during that activation. It is Jendon that is activating, so its added to his anti-squadron armament. Of course, he doesn't then use it, as he tells someone else to attack.

Full stop. End of story.

Glad I've been playing it right.

13 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

It is, amend my statement to almost on average, more often than not will kill a defender.

And with flight controllers, all the more certain.

Just now, Green Knight said:

And with flight controllers, all the more certain.

Well, I meant to say, that a TIE Defender will still almost certainly take out a TIE Fighter. Flight Controllers make that basically a Certainty.

The TIE Fighters however, do have to rely on luck with the first roll... IF the first set of lucks go in their way, then the second powered with Swarm will have an easier time finishing up...

But if the first roll is on the Low side of that 2.5 average (again, without swarm), then the second TIE Fighter cannot kill the Defender unless it has Flight Controllers and a Perfect Roll.

IF the Defender gets the Jump, the Defender walks away with 3 damage at worst.

If the TIEs get the Jump, they might just kill the defender, but if they don't, then odds are at least one of them dies... Now, that might be considered a good trade up in the long run (8 to kill 16), but again, that's effectively going to come down to who strikes first...

And in the Strikes First game... Remember... You're limited on how many points you can fling at once...

With TIE fighters, you can fling, we'll say, 6 Squadrons... 6 Squadrons of TIE Fighters.

But your Enemy can flight 6 Squadrons of DEFENDERS, as long as he's thrown the points on the table... That's what makes it hard to quantify the first strike advantage.

The advantage to having massed defenders is, essentially, not only will an alpha strike of them tear through most enemy squadrons, completely decapitating htem - the Defenders then have the hull to live through 2-3 turns of Ship-Based Anti-Squadron Firepower, and then Retiring from the battle *alive*, having assisted their force well above their points value.

TIE Fighter squadrons, even in a 2:1 ratio, just can't say that... because their Alpha Strike is individually less powerful, and their positioning ismore important due to the (slightly) reduced speed, and they melt to ship-based anti-squadron firepower.

On an individual, TIE/Ln vs TIE/D basis. That's there reason to take TIE Defenders.

its the same reason to take 10 Squadrons of X-Wings in lieu of other Choices.... Sure, you could take 19 Z-95s... But you'll on average get more out of the X-Wings while making it harder for the enemy to bleed you of points.

TIE Phantoms kind of fit in the same way, to get back to the subject... They can be compared to 2x TIE Fighters in similar ways, but what they have (essenitally) is only the slighly enhanced survivability against Ship-based firepower (due to their higher hull)... But they also have this tricky repositioning thing that's VERY hard to Price. used well, its absolutely awesome - letting them duck out of short ship fire range, letting them break engagement, letting them engage things that cna't do that much to them...... But its really really hard to quantify.

Do I think FFG "screwed up" TIE Phantoms? No. No they are good for their points if they are used well. You just have to think outside of the box to get that "use well" out of them., because they are probably as far as possible form a "Point and Click" squad experience.

i'd take Interceptors over Phantoms any day, Counter 2 and Swarm is much better than Cloak with an additional hull and having 2 red anti-ship die

Agreed Darth Evil

4 hours ago, Darth evil said:

i'd take Interceptors over Phantoms any day, Counter 2 and Swarm is much better than Cloak with an additional hull and having 2 red anti-ship die

The thing is they aren't really directly comparable. The TIE Interceptor is a fighter-interceptor specialist glass cannon on steroids. All it does is engage its choice of squadrons and hurt them and it does that extremely well, but nothing else. The TIE Phantom is a fighter-bomber hybrid with some tech advantages built in. If what you're primarily comparing is their utility against squadrons, the Interceptor is coming out ahead guaranteed.

9 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Proofread @Dr alex

Wow, I thought I had. Turns out I may play armada better drunk but I don't type better.

this is probably best evidenced by the incredibly rude word I accidentally got through the language filter

My thoughts on the phantom currently is that people keep avoiding them because they introduce a new timeline mechanic that people keep forgetting about.
You might forget one Han Solo twice in your armada lifetime. Forgetting four phantoms might be... stressful.

This is dangerous because FFG may stop releasing new mechanics of this kind, "at the start/end of the squadron phase", "at the start/end of the command phase", "at the start/end of the ship phase" etc.

use your cloak to shift the sq's into a jamming field gozanti's range and voila obstructed Phantom's

I tried 6 phantoms after seeing how well 6 awings work. I switched to some interceptors and phantoms since it hurts losing phantoms in the alpha strike. And interceptors do damage while going down. 2 or 3 phantoms may be the sweet spot. They did like 6 damage to ships over the game. A damage spike once forced hard decisions.

Phantoms are not bad.

They are just 14 points in a 4 hull chasis.

When you have advanced at 12 and defenders at 16. Cloak is something you need to justify in order to use them.

I would like to fly them but I didn't play so many causal matches lately to realiza the best use of them that could fit me.

Cloak has some uses, here are a few:

• disengage (completely, so you can move freely next round)
• disengage (from intel bubble, so you're not heavy)
• engage (to tie up an enemy squadron)
• shuffle onto the station to heal
• shuffle onto an obstacle to break engagement
• get into range of Relay/command range of a ship
• etc

@JJs Juggernaut and @CaribbeanNinja have been contemplating an odd Sloane lists with Phantoms and an Interdictor. It's very peculiar, but seems to be pretty good. They can explain it better than I.

1 hour ago, Green Knight said:

Cloak has some uses, here are a few:

• disengage (completely, so you can move freely next round)
• disengage (from intel bubble, so you're not heavy)
• engage (to tie up an enemy squadron)
• shuffle onto the station to heal
• shuffle onto an obstacle to break engagement
• get into range of Relay/command range of a ship
• etc

I,ve seen people use their ability really well. I think it's a bit underrated honestly.

But, if people think it's not enough, how about you also add the ability to make your opponent reroll one of its anti-squadron armament die? It's a bit like obstructed, but not as good?

Iv found them most effective if left you leave them until the last squadrons you activate. If you can screen them well they are great for hopping into combat and back out. Iv used them with a tie fighter wall and just have them pop in after the enemy's squadrons have activated and get in another hit then jump back out.

I hope we see cloak in rebel side some day, that would be a good reason to spend 28 points in Hera Syndulla. Not to mention that imps already have at least one fighter with snipe.