While I can see your point, I strongly doubt "Banzai" is the thing they have a problem with. It's a warcry. It's not like they marched under the "Banzai banner", they marched under the Japanese flag.

33 minutes ago, Badilla said:

I just hope FFG doesn't give in to these people.

What people?

They're people having a discussion on a game review website. That's it. There's been no move to try to sway FFG in one way or another. There's nothing to "give in" to.

12 minutes ago, daimaru said:

The author did nothing but rant about everything, from how complicated it looks to historical references. But he did prove for us a point:

L5R LCG is not for the faint of heart... or brain.

Interesting. I saw the review quite differently, and quite positively (and I'm ignoring the whole comments section rants.) I thought he did a good job reviewing it, showed its strengths, and even sounded enthusiastic. I was surprised when he ended by saying he didn't expect to play it, but I can also understand his reasons - it's not everyone's cup of tea, and it's perfectly fair to say so. Sounded like a good sales job, really.

- deleted double post -

Now if we were screaming about the Divine Winds before every tournament then I'd give it to you. That'd be a little tasteless.

4 minutes ago, Gaffa said:

What people?

They're people having a discussion on a game review website. That's it. There's been no move to try to sway FFG in one way or another. There's nothing to "give in" to.

Aside from it being "offensive", there have been some people on the reddit topic saying they just find the chant annoying and awkward to even think about doing before in a tournament scene. They've gone as far as to tell others to write an email to FFG saying it should be done away with.

And Quinns did his usual good job of talking about a game and why he didn't like it but perhaps you would. Good review.

Just now, ElSuave said:

Aside from it being "offensive", there have been some people on the reddit topic saying they just find the chant annoying and awkward to even think about doing before in a tournament scene. They've gone as far as to tell others to write an email to FFG saying it should be done away with.

Why the quotes around "offensive"? If someone says they find it offensive, then they do.

And people are free to write in to FFG to ask for anything. That doesn't mean they'll get what they want. Or even if they do, if their letter had anything to do with why the change happened.

Having a discussion over why a banzai chant from a largely non-Asian audience might be considered offensive or weird is a fine discussion to have. The game is not threatened in the least by the discussion, nor even if the chant is kept or not.

I don't think anyone would disagree that it is a little weird.

I think that Cultural Appropriation is a symptom of American Privilege. People who have it so good they make up problems to concern themselves, and taint the standard sharing and celebrating of cultures (even if only partially understood) with offenses so they can vent their urban frustrations without admitting they care more about their mortgage interest rates than poverty and exploitation in developing nations.

Banzai is used in modern Japan, and the use of the word in the L5R opening ceremony is quite appropriate. Being offended by the Banzai shout, or considering it cultural appropriation is actually more showing of the misunderstanding of the writer, and their own fears of accidentally causing problems then it is an understanding of Japanese people and what they would care about. This would be the same if a Japanese culture club celebrating classic English / American culture say Cheers when toasting together.

If you want to avoid offending the Chinese - start with removing ALL depictions of skulls from the art work. They care a lot more about that then about a common Japanese celebratory cheer...

4 minutes ago, shosuko said:

If you want to avoid offending the Chinese - start with removing ALL depictions of skulls from the art work. They care a lot more about that then about a common Japanese celebratory cheer...

I'd never heard that one. Could you explain?

For what it's worth, from when I lived over in Japan, I have serious doubts that this cheer would tick off anyone I knew who lives there. I worked with a great group of people, and they really didn't take offense easily. They'd gladly laugh at us for getting things wrong, but would be more inclined to insult back if they thought we were being insulted. The laughing at us bit was much more likely, though.

19 minutes ago, Gaffa said:

What people?

They're people having a discussion on a game review website. That's it. There's been no move to try to sway FFG in one way or another. There's nothing to "give in" to.

9 minutes ago, Gaffa said:

Why the quotes around "offensive"? If someone says they find it offensive, then they do.

And people are free to write in to FFG to ask for anything. That doesn't mean they'll get what they want. Or even if they do, if their letter had anything to do with why the change happened.

Having a discussion over why a banzai chant from a largely non-Asian audience might be considered offensive or weird is a fine discussion to have. The game is not threatened in the least by the discussion, nor even if the chant is kept or not.

This is the point. It is not about people discussing on an internet platform about their feelings. It is about people trying to use their power to influence the decisions of FFG to make changes that will hamper the enjoyment of the game for a lot of people.

Just now, Ignithas said:

This is the point. It is not about people discussing on an internet platform about their feelings. It is about people trying to use their power to influence the decisions of FFG to make changes that will hamper the enjoyment of the game for a lot of people.

And are people not allowed to try to influence a company to make changes that will stop the company from policies that hamper the enjoyment of the game for lots of other people?

The chant has nothing to do with the game play. If people are bothered enough by it to bring it up to FFG for discussion, I'm thrilled for them, and I hope they have a good discussion on both sides. Perhaps FFG will change, perhaps they won't, but that doesn't mean it's a bad discussion to be had.

28 minutes ago, Gaffa said:

Why the quotes around "offensive"? If someone says they find it offensive, then they do.

But finding it offensive does not make it offensive. Nothing is inherently offensive – that's a bastardization of reality.

So putting it in scare quotes is a way of saying that it has been incorrectly labelled, which is true, in this case.

9 minutes ago, Gaffa said:

And are people not allowed to try to influence a company to make changes that will stop the company from policies that hamper the enjoyment of the game for lots of other people?

The chant has nothing to do with the game play. If people are bothered enough by it to bring it up to FFG for discussion, I'm thrilled for them, and I hope they have a good discussion on both sides. Perhaps FFG will change, perhaps they won't, but that doesn't mean it's a bad discussion to be had.

They have the right, but in return we have the right to try to stop them. It's the unsincere attitude of people like you that write on the one hand " They're people having a discussion on a game review website. That's it. There's been no move to try to sway FFG in one way or another. There's nothing to "give in" to." and the quoted part just to muddy the water for other people to change things that are important to us under our noses.

I have never seen a meaningfull discussion about those things and the people in question are not interested in discussion, which they also made clear in the comment section of SU&SD. They will just complain and threaten reprocussions until it is changed. I have seen this too many times.

Sorry our Banzai hurt your duende.

2 minutes ago, InquisitorM said:

But finding it offensive does not make it offensive. Nothing is inherently offensive – that's a bastardization of reality.

That's not the way it works. You don't get to tell other people that they can only be offended by the things you allow them to be offended by.

You may or may not agree with them, but you at least afford them the respect that they can tell what actually offends them.

3 minutes ago, Ignithas said:

They have the right, but in return we have the right to try to stop them. It's the unsincere attitude of people like you that write on the one hand " They're people having a discussion on a game review website. That's it. There's been no move to try to sway FFG in one way or another. There's nothing to "give in" to." and the quoted part just to muddy the water for other people to change things that are important to us under our noses.

I have never seen a meaningfull discussion about those things and the people in question are not interested in discussion, which they also made clear in the comment section of SU&SD. They will just complain and threaten reprocussions until it is changed. I have seen this too many times.

If you've never seen a meaningful discussion about inclusivity in gaming, may I suggest that you actually pay attention to how the discussion at Shut Up & Sit Down is going? Your pocket summary isn't really doing it much justice.

And I'm anything if unsincere. Please, feel free to write in to FFG to keep the banzai chant, if it's that important to you.

3 minutes ago, Gaffa said:

you at least afford them the respect that they can tell what actually offends them

They can certainly tell me (and you and the whole internet) what offends them - but Part 2 is titled And Why Do We Care?

Right now, we care only because them taking offense is offensive to us. The circle is complete?

1 minute ago, Manchu said:

They can certainly tell me (and you and the whole internet) what offends them - but Part 2 is titled And Why Do We Care?

If you don't want to care, that's your call. If it's a subject that you don't care about, however, it seems having an ongoing discussion about it is an odd way of showing your lack of caring.

Just now, Gaffa said:

If you don't want to care

Oh but wait no my post

3 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Right now, we care only because them taking offense is offensive to us. The circle is complete?

So.......any new spoilers?

46 minutes ago, Gaffa said:

If you've never seen a meaningful discussion about inclusivity in gaming, may I suggest that you actually pay attention to how the discussion at Shut Up & Sit Down is going? Your pocket summary isn't really doing it much justice.

And I'm anything if unsincere. Please, feel free to write in to FFG to keep the banzai chant, if it's that important to you.

The discussion on SU&SD isn't meaningful. One guy tries to explain that everything exists within a context and everything can be taken as offensive and the other side interprets everything the worst way possible and tries to belittle and insult people with different opinions, creating a toxic environment.

Sentences like " No, because whiteness dominates the world and doesn't need further protection.", " ... Ah, oh no ... I insulted the European nations! How could I?! Bunch of high-minded states with no concept of how they're exploiting each other, screaming solidarity while letting refugees drown in the Mediterranean. How could I have insulted their high status?" "My wife just told me: Dont be upset, you cant discuss serious issues with children. And there are a lot of children in this threat, that cant take critism on something they like. I learned today that people defend a chant as historiccally necessary for a fictional setting and at the same time, point out, that it has nothing to do with that part of the history." "I could also tell you that technically all white people are racist, whether they are anti-racist or not? (yes, this does include me!) But that'd probably just make you summon absurd concepts like 'reverse racism', which, for you, ist "just racism, too!" or tell me about the tactical futility of such concepts ... and, honestly, I am already super bored by this conversation.", " Jesus Christ, would you **** off to Reddit with this bull already?"

don't make the groundwork for discussing complex topics.

I'm also ... struggling to find any legitimate point in tacking on "Appendix B" to the review. Kinda reads like a parting shot at a game the reviewer didn't enjoy by attacking its fanbase. The whole review has a "dunno who would like this game/world but good luck to such weirdos" vibe.

Quinns loved the game, he just said it's not going to be something he's going to be following like he did Netrunner because it's too cerebral and not enough emotion for him. He even strongly recommends that if you think the game sounds like it would be a good fit for you to buy a core set and try it out.

The chant commentary was put into an appendix, I'd assume, because it has nothing to do with the actual merits of the game, and any weirdness from the use of the chant has nothing to do whether you'd like the game or not. But it's entirely in character for Shut Up & Sit Down to consider inclusivity issues in their reviews; they point out problems (such as the underdressed women in Conan or Kingdom Death: Monster) even while saying they loved the game (Conan) or found the game fascinating but can't recommend it (KDM).