Dear Sloth,

Wow, I had dropped my argument 2 days ago. Perhaps you should read all of my posts in this thread. I was even apologetic.

And yes, spelling counts. Since you were trying to seem intelligent and witty, don't misspell easy words like a simpleton.

Generally, Sloth, its a good idea to read all the posts in a thread before responding. That way, as was the case in this instance, you are fully aware of how the exact focus of the conversation may have shifted over the course of the thread. In this case, from specifically Pistols in Melee to Pistols in Melee as an indicator of a general power-gaming style.

Also, after re-reading the thread, I cannot find anything that even remotely resembles tautology on Sanjay or anyone else's part.

Yes yes whatever, I get it. It was foolish of me to assume (apparently) that your posts, which I did in fact read, had anything to do with the OP. I don't take kindly to name calling and being attacked for imperfect usage of a language I don't speak natively though. Maybe that's just me.

Carry on ...

Sloth, I feel compelled to also weigh in on your behalf. I agree that, while spelling is a matter of importance to some (I myself strive to keep my posts immaculate) it is not, for various reasons, something to attack someone for.

Likewise, I feel there's no need for namecalling, especially for something as minor as spelling mistakes.

*runs from the room sobbing*

"Can't we all just get along!!!"

Sloth,

Again, spelling counts if you are trying to seem intelligent and witty. And spelling especially counts if you are trying to seem intelligent and witty while belittling someone else's point of view.

In another situation, I wouldn't have bothered to mention it. I just thought you deserved a smack on the "cheeck" for the obvious smack on mine.

*** for tat. Fair enough now? And please don't cry. There's no crying in Dark Heresy.

I was not attempting to belittle you, merely to disagree with your point. I believe that's still allowed on a forum otherwise I don't really see the purpose of one. I wasn't even trying to be particularly witty or intelligent as far as I can tell but whatever. Anyway, if I came of as though I was in some way attacking you personally then I apologize. It certainly wasn't intended.

Sloth,

Apology accepted. But, as I said, in Dark Heresy there is no crying; and by corollary, there is no apologizing.

(Those are just my rules, maybe not anyone else's. It is supposed to be a very unforgiving world, after all)

By the way, if indeed English in not your native language, you have a better vocabulary and better grammar skills than most native speakers. I am duly impressed.

Sanjay said:

I entirely, 100%, agree with this. This is how all of my players see it too.

Oh wow, can you please confirm it for me since it appears we've been playing wrong for the beginning: A character in close combat can use a pistol and full burst. Does this attack have a -20 penalty? I seem to have read somewhere (and that it can only be a single attack) and it stuck with us.

You can fire a pistol Semi- or Full-Auto in Close Combat as long as you haven't Moved that round or made any other Actions (as Semi- and Full-Auto require a Full Action). You get the +20 for the Full-Auto, but no other shooting bonuses/skills/talents (so no Point Blank Range or any of that). From that point on its just a regular HTH attack, using a gun for damage.

BYE

you do not get -20 for bursting in melee but you do get -40/-20 for firing two weapons at once (or attacking with two melee weapons)

so combined with the +20 for full auto burst it becomes -20/-0

just to answer skie's question

by the way for the original thread creator errata says the psyker does not get point blank with his power but he get's a +30 to hit bonus

this makes things better for him in melee (where he gets the +30 even if stuck in melee combat) and close range (cause +10 and +30 stack)

but it does not allow him to attack with a shotgun at extreme range and do a shitload of damage

and if you used some math for a normal psyker with a max of 40 BS firing this way (-20/-0) using 2 autoguns you get like a

main hand:

1-10 10% to hit 4 shots

11-20 10% to hit 3 shots

21- 30 10% to hit 2 shots

31-40 10% to hit 1 shot

94-100 7% jam

off hand:

1-10 10% to hit 2 shots

11-20% to hit 1 shot

94-100 7% jam

with a d10+3 I as damage per hit

ooposed to a longsaber with mono and a WS of 40:

aim+attack 50% to hit

charge 50% to hit

or all out attack with 60% to hit

he hits an average of 0.5 or 0.6 times a round depending of what he does

1d10+2 +StrB R +4pen

if we just calculate the user as as a strength bonus of 3 for average (he already rolled 40 on WS)

we ignore all armour that should turn up in the first session (up to flak) and do 10d+5 damage for an average first session enemy with TB 3 and armour 3 this comes down to 1d10+2 damage possibility of onehit here

the pistol wielder das have to opportunity of 1% to hit 6 shots... he has the opporunity of 0,49% of double jam and he has a 52% chance to do at least a single hit which is more then the melee one without doing a full out and has an average of 1.3 hits per round

as he does 10d+3 against a normal human with an average of 9-13 ~11 wounds when substracting a toughness of 3 and armour of 3 his damage ranges from 0 to 7 (1d10-3) he needs at least a second hit to kill an enemy if he did damage at all

in the end mathematically it is not overpowered if not using further modifications

things that are not regarded:

manstopper ammunition is quite expensive at the beginning of the game as you burst 20 bullets each round (14 of which can never hit)

unnatural aim... it would favor the dualwielder more but applies to the melee wielder as well and I think it's wasted because you can attack only every other round (but maybe ammo conserving)

metallician gunslinger (that would be the way to go cause here it get's really nasty)

metallician gunslinger gets ambidex,two-weapon wielder(balistics), +5 to SP (stack it with the divination if you can to get another 3 to SP)

so he rolls -10/-0 with to pistols having auto bursts he rolls +10/+20 at a WS of 45/48 keep 100 or 200 of your starting xp to buy gunsligner for 300 xp after the first session and roll with 0/0 with full bursts +20/+20

being in point blank as opposed to melee you roll against 95/98 two times

we (rank 3) have a metalician gunslinger assassin with 2 orthlank mark 7 or whatever they are called stuffed with fire selectors of course he has troubles to afford manstopper bullets... and against an ork he has trouble dealing damage without these 3 penetration... but of course he does shred every cover short of solid walls

at the same moment our guardsmen with the mono longsaber favors it over his vanaheim for the same reason... PEN (he did a point blank full burst with scatter and landed like 7 hits with the effect of 2 wounds?)

(I think these orks our GM used have about TB5 and Armour 5 with wooden crates as a ap4 cover and something with ap8 cover I can't recall)

I for myself playing a tech-priest don't bother with my lasgun and go straight into melee with my chainaxe (profiency is yet to come but -20 to WS is worth the extra damage/pen opposed to my mono spear (bayonett) )

Pistols in close combat are used with WS not BS.

Which would be a limiting factor of a gunslinger build.

inkwizita said:

No they aren't, they use BS. The Errata is very specific on that.

inkwizita said:

Only if you are attempting to club your enemy to death using the pistol as an improvised weapon.

Otherwise, as already mentioned, they specfically do still use BS in melee combat.

Overall, guns should be more powerful than swords. Just because they are. If they weren't then modern soldiers would be putting down their guns and using swords instead. But, there are situations in which this is not the case. A sword can kill silently, for example. Since a RPG offers plenty of opportunities to provide interesting and original encounters, it should be possible to mitigate the difference.

If all your fights are medium to long range in with the enemy coming forward, it favours guns. If you present fights that take place in confined spaces then they will be more balanced. Even more so if you work at it. Make it matter where the stray bullets go. Not so easy to blaze away on autofire at a fancy dress party crammed with the elite. Or in a fuel depot. Or in an observation dome on an airless moon.

Even so, I find the use of two pistols a little difficult to digest. This is Hollywood style artistic license. What soldier or bodyguard uses two pistols simultaneously? Or two knives? The two-weapon concept only makes sense in a highly abstracted close combat, in which you have two people facing each other a couple of feet apart, swinging or shooting independently. In reality you would be grabbing with your free hand, pushing, pulling, wriggling, wrestling and focusing all your efforts on trying to gain the upper hand so you can land a telling blow. Holding onto two pistols would be a hindrance and shooting on full auto would be crazy.

I must have missed the part where a universe with sorcery, alternate dimension FTL travel, and frigging CHAINSAW SWORDS was supposed to be realistic.

Dual-wielding is badass, and as such exists in a game primarily created as an escapist exercise. Roleplayers in general want something that is fantastic and outside of their normal realm. So dual wielding exists, as do full-auto-bursts with pistols. Pretty much no point making an issue of realism.