I played in a store championship the other day and a player ended up showing up late so one player received a bye the first round.

Unfortunately this resulted in player with the bye rocketing all the way up to second place due to most of the other games being played that round resulting in 7-4 or 6-5 scores. Has anyone else thought that the bye would be more balanced if it took the average of margin of victory to calculate the tournament points?

I just seems like 8 points is too much on average especially if most of the games are tight. This would now place the player with the bye right in the middle of the pairings instead of in our case with the top person. In out store championship the player who won had 23 tournament points (9 or 10 of those points can from being matched up with the player with the bye in the second round). Averaging 8 point in the other two rounds would've been more than enough to win the tournament for the player with the bye netting them 24 points for the whole tournament.

Had our tournament continued with a odd number of players, whoever received a bye would be in a better position to finish higher in the standings at the end of the day than most players who actually played in the round.

I think 8 is about right to not punish a player who randomly draws a bye in the first round.

In your example the player turned up late, possibly missing registration etc. and that is a different matter for the event organiser to look at.

In the second and third rounds a bye is awarded to the lowest scoring player so the 8 points (while welcome) at least isn't going to a player doing well.

In small events of say 6-10 players the 8 points for a bye could be significant but when you get to larger event with more players the chances of a round resulting in only 6-5 and 7-4 scores is quite low and there should be others who have achieved an equal or greater score than the person with the bye.

Overall I agree with @Mad Cat that the current system is fair. My one complaint is when someone shows up late and gets a bye. When an event starts with an uneven number of people, the first round bye is effectively a consolation prize given out to the random person who just due to math won't be able to get in a game. When someone shows up late and gets a bye, they're effectively being rewarded for showing up late, which bothers me. Exactly how that should be addressed I'm not entirely sure.

Beside giving someone 8 points first round, the bye also allows the person in last place to have a shot at making top 4 or 8 at the end of the tournament. If most tournaments end with the winning player at 24 points (8x3), a person who is 10-1, gets the bye, and wins 10-1 can end with 19 points.

Sometimes 8 points are a lot and sometimes 8 are bad. Not to forget that this low mov of 140 does really hurt when it comes to equal points.

Taking the average if the round might sound ok, but in worst case you end somewhere in the low middle with no way to catch up anymore, if the round went bad.

8 is already a solid average win. 6-7 is nearly a draw and 9 and 10 are high good wins.

Everyone does know where a bye end. And everyone has the chance to overtake someone with a bye. If all other matches were this close it was not im the hand or the fault of the person wirh the bye. Why should he be punished when there were not so man high wins? He is already punished by not being able to get the most maximal points.

1 hour ago, Snipafist said:

Overall I agree with @Mad Cat that the current system is fair. My one complaint is when someone shows up late and gets a bye. When an event starts with an uneven number of people, the first round bye is effectively a consolation prize given out to the random person who just due to math won't be able to get in a game. When someone shows up late and gets a bye, they're effectively being rewarded for showing up late, which bothers me. Exactly how that should be addressed I'm not entirely sure.

Why do you get a bye for showing up late? Arent you lucky you get to jump in at all?

16 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Why do you get a bye for showing up late? Arent you lucky you get to jump in at all?

Nothing in the rules gives any guidance on what to do with late attendees and so TOs usually just give them a bye as the simplest solution to the problem. I guess what I'm getting at is I wish there was a more punitive bye that was given to late attendees (say, a 5-6 loss) so they weren't completely tournament point screwed but also so they weren't advantaged by showing up late.

56 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Why do you get a bye for showing up late? Arent you lucky you get to jump in at all?

I believe it was because some one showed up late CAUSING a bye for the first round only... after that there was an even amount of players so no more bye's were necessary. I'm assuming the late comer probably got a 4 with an MOV 0 or some other low score.

47 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

Nothing in the rules gives any guidance on what to do with late attendees and so TOs usually just give them a bye as the simplest solution to the problem. I guess what I'm getting at is I wish there was a more punitive bye that was given to late attendees (say, a 5-6 loss) so they weren't completely tournament point screwed but also so they weren't advantaged by showing up late.

If there was an even number of people registered and prepaid, for example, but someone turned up late - after the first game has started - I believe by the strictest ruling, they have actually conceded their game, for failing to turn up to their appointed game in a timely manner.

This would be an 8-0 in favour of their opponent, not an 8-3. In this instance, and 8-3 as a bye is actually generous to the late party...

BUT, I am going to double check my tourney regs right ow.

EDIT:

Interesting.

The Player who does not attend is dropped from the tournament, however, they can request to be re-added for the later rounds... They just recieve an Unpaired Loss for each game:

If a player no longer wishes to continue playing, he or she can notify the organizer of their intent. The organizer will avoid pairing him or her in future rounds by dropping them from the tournament. Players are also dropped if they do not appear for a round in which they are paired within a reasonable time limit, or if they are no longer able to play for another reason. Players can request that the organizer allow them to rejoin an event from which they were dropped, being assigned an unpaired loss for each round they did not attend. Disqualified players are removed from the tournament, and cannot rejoin.

To account for that, I think their scheduled opponent would be granted a bye. They get the 8 Tournament points and the 140 MOV.

But the guy joining late gets Nothing but an unpaired loss.

But that, of course, beggars the next question.

What is an Unpaired Loss?

I'm up to the fundamental event document now, see if that sheds some specific light.

23 minutes ago, PartyPotato said:

I believe it was because some one showed up late CAUSING a bye for the first round only... after that there was an even amount of players so no more bye's were necessary. I'm assuming the late comer probably got a 4 with an MOV 0 or some other low score.

Yes, this is what happened. We ended up giving the latecomer a 0.

Also to address @Tokra

Let's say there are an uneven number of people all fairly equally skill and everyone gets 6-5. Now the person with the bye is in first place and in a really good position to win the tournament if everyone keeps getting 6-5s. I believe averaging up the MOV does not penalize the person with the bye, because it will put them right in the middle and they have neither a point advantage or disadvantage.

3 hours ago, Snipafist said:

Nothing in the rules gives any guidance on what to do with late attendees and so TOs usually just give them a bye as the simplest solution to the problem. I guess what I'm getting at is I wish there was a more punitive bye that was given to late attendees (say, a 5-6 loss) so they weren't completely tournament point screwed but also so they weren't advantaged by showing up late.

A no show would/should get 0 points for having forfeited his game. But the nice TO makes space for him so he can at least have some fun games with his bros.

As to value of a bye, I think 8 with a 140 MoV is just fine. The only adjustment that I would make is for the size of the tournament, possibly just the first round. In a tournament with less than 10 players, starting with an 8 is a huge boost.

However, larger tournaments are a different story.

I've had some discussions with @CaribbeanNinja and others about the ideal first round performance at a large tournament like Worlds or Gen Con. When we last discussed it, we felt like a 6-5 LOSS was probably the preferable first round performance. The logic was that you had a better chance of pulling a 10-1 or 9-2 in your second game against someone who lost the first round than you would getting 15 or 16 points by going with pure wins. It would also mean being paired with the 16 point people in Round 3 rather than the possible 18's and 20's.

Aah, the good ol' Tournament Submarine.

i don't know, i kinda hate byes, at the SC this summer i got the 1st round bye and it hampered me finishing 1st, i won both my other games 8-3 and 7-4, but finished 3rd with 32 points , had i gotten a 10-1 first round i would have been 1st.

1 minute ago, Darth evil said:

i don't know, i kinda hate byes, at the SC this summer i got the 1st round bye and it hampered me finishing 1st, i won both my other games 8-3 and 7-4, but finished 3rd with 32 points , had i gotten a 10-1 first round i would have been 1st.

I understand the sentiment, but you can also say:

Had you got a 10-1 second round, you would have been 1st.

and

Had you got a 10-1 third round, you would have been 1st.

... I mean, sure, you're effectively relying at that point on luck to get a favourable first round match up for that 10-1. You might have also got the worst of worst matchips and 1-10'd it... If you didn't get the bye first round, you might have scored poorer first round (like your 7-4), and finished even lower... Personally, I'm an unlucky son of a gundark... So I can't rely on that luck, and take 8-3 Byes as a goddamn blessing . I mean, I missed out on a store champs ruler last time by 8 MOV because of a Bye awarding a lower MOV... But ****, I could ahve botched that game had I played it, too...

I personally feel the onus is on you to make the best of every game. Byes, generally speaking, won't take you out of contention... Unless you 10-1'd your other games, and you go down to someone who also got 2 10-1s and one other game of 9-2 or better. Then you can say the Bye robbed you, I feel

1 hour ago, comatose said:

As to value of a bye, I think 8 with a 140 MoV is just fine. The only adjustment that I would make is for the size of the tournament, possibly just the first round. In a tournament with less than 10 players, starting with an 8 is a huge boost.

However, larger tournaments are a different story.

I've had some discussions with @CaribbeanNinja and others about the ideal first round performance at a large tournament like Worlds or Gen Con. When we last discussed it, we felt like a 6-5 LOSS was probably the preferable first round performance. The logic was that you had a better chance of pulling a 10-1 or 9-2 in your second game against someone who lost the first round than you would getting 15 or 16 points by going with pure wins. It would also mean being paired with the 16 point people in Round 3 rather than the possible 18's and 20's.

Does anyone know where I can find the result of all the rounds of a large tournament?

I'm just a little curious to see what a bye would be if it was calculated by my suggestion. If as you said the 8-3 feeling about right, and the calculation ends up the same I think an argument could be made to switch to average MOV and that would also address changing the points awarded in smaller tournaments.

5 minutes ago, MrDumbAzCanB said:

Does anyone know where I can find the result of all the rounds of a large tournament?

As far as I know, if you want the results of every match, you are out of luck. You might be able to look at the NoVa thread and calculate it from the intermediate results that people posted, but that's a lot of work.

I can tell you that there were 4 of 32 known wave 5/6 store champs that had 29 or more points. However, almost certainly, none of them had first round byes. (Even number of players)

4 hours ago, MrDumbAzCanB said:

Yes, this is what happened. We ended up giving the latecomer a 0.

Also to address @Tokra

Let's say there are an uneven number of people all fairly equally skill and everyone gets 6-5. Now the person with the bye is in first place and in a really good position to win the tournament if everyone keeps getting 6-5s. I believe averaging up the MOV does not penalize the person with the bye, because it will put them right in the middle and they have neither a point advantage or disadvantage.

If all are this even, and no one is able to get a 10 or 9 point win, they don't deserve to win.

And what happen in your case when there was one match with 10 and all other with 6? The person with the bye is getting punished with a 6 point "draw". Without giving him the chance to do anything against it.

A bye should NEVER be a punishment. In other games it does count as a full win. In armada it just dont work, because there is no "win". Only a score from 1 to 10. And i find that 8 is a fair middle for a bye. Not to low to punish the person with the bye to much, and not to high to make it to unbalanced.

57 minutes ago, MrDumbAzCanB said:

Does anyone know where I can find the result of all the rounds of a large tournament?

I'm just a little curious to see what a bye would be if it was calculated by my suggestion. If as you said the 8-3 feeling about right, and the calculation ends up the same I think an argument could be made to switch to average MOV and that would also address changing the points awarded in smaller tournaments.

It really depend on the rounds and the number of players.

But you dont need the results of each round. The final standings will give you already a lot of informations. But i can try to find some from the ec.

On tournaments with 3 rounds but still a lot of players you will need a really high average to win. A bye will hurt you in this case (even with 8 points).

As more rounds are being played (over the suggested path) as lower the average will be. And as more a bye will help.

For example. On a normal store or regional you might need an average of 8 or even 9 to win (25 points is a good indicator). On the us nationals an average of 6.8 was enought to get into the cut (34 points in 5 rounds).

2 hours ago, Tokra said:

If all are this even, and no one is able to get a 10 or 9 point win, they don't deserve to win.

And what happen in your case when there was one match with 10 and all other with 6? The person with the bye is getting punished with a 6 point "draw". Without giving him the chance to do anything against it.

A bye should NEVER be a punishment. In other games it does count as a full win. In armada it just dont work, because there is no "win". Only a score from 1 to 10. And i find that 8 is a fair middle for a bye. Not to low to punish the person with the bye to much, and not to high to make it to unbalanced.

I think closer scoring games means that the skill levels of both the players are of equal level.

Scores of 10-1, 9-2 look more like someone made a costly mistake, either with their build, deployment, or tactics, or is just the big fish in the small pond.

someone showing up late should be ready to accept that he starts the tournament with a loss, thats at least what we do. Sure you took the time to come down but your not getting an easy win for being tardy, then a bye will be added for the next round.

And i agree with Tokra, if the first round was all 6-5's and 5-6's well too bad, your entire field played like pansies and deserved the small scores, i know it may sound harsh but in tournaments you play to win , not to not lose.