I tried reimaginig the punisher at the power level of the scurrg and K-wing.

What do you think?

It's not the Punisher that Empire deserves... But the Punisher that the Empire needs.

But they will hunt it,

because he can take it,

because is not a hero, is a silent guardian, a watchful protector,

a dark knight.

I think the title needs to be:
TIE Punisher - Your upgrade bar gains the [torpedo] and [missile] icons. You may equip 3 different modifications. The cost of each of your equipped secondary weapons is reduced by one.

It might keep them a tad below Scurrg level, but I feel that accuracy corrector, unguided rockets, lightweight frame punishers for 25 points might be a bit crazy. Nevertheless, a very good fix.

4 minutes ago, Astech said:

I think the title needs to be:
TIE Punisher - Your upgrade bar gains the [torpedo] and [missile] icons. You may equip 3 different modifications. The cost of each of your equipped secondary weapons is reduced by one.

It might keep them a tad below Scurrg level, but I feel that accuracy corrector, unguided rockets, lightweight frame punishers for 25 points might be a bit crazy. Nevertheless, a very good fix.

AC doesn't work on Unguided Rockets.

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

AC doesn't work on Unguided Rockets.

True, but it works on the inevitable turns where the punisher either bumps something or does a red maneuver. FCS is more or less wasted, and the only other decent option is sensor jammer, which is kind of ridiculous.

I've said it elsewhere, but this is how I'd do it:

TIE/it

Title, TIE Punisher only. 0 points. Dual card.

TIE/it: Targetting Laser Pods: After attacking with a primary weapon, you may make an attack with an equipped secondary weapon.

When equipped secondary weapons require you to discard them, do not do so.

You may equip one additional modification costing 0 points.

TIE/it: Expanded Mine Pods: When you would discard a [bomb] upgrade to drop a bomb, you may either drop two identical tokens, one using the [1 bank right] template and one using the [1 bank left] template or you may choose not to do discard the upgrade.

Modification, 0 points, Imperial only. When a bomb token you dropped detonates, choose one ship affected by the detonation. Assign that ship stress and focus tokens until it has at least one of each.

When you are ionised, treat the 1 straight manoeuvre you perform as green.

You may equip any number of additional modification upgrades. The total squad points you spend on modification upgrades cannot exceed 2.

OR

Modification, 0 points, Imperial only. After you drop a [bomb] upgrade, you may perform a free action from your action bar.

When you are ionised, treat the 1 straight manoeuvre you perform as green.

You may equip any number of additional modification upgrades. The total squad points you spend on modification upgrades cannot exceed 2.

The problems with the Punisher are manifold, but they boil down to 'it can't shoot its load quickly enough to make up for the points'. THis makes it a LOT More shooty and mnore importantly, essentially gives it Deadeye when combined with Fire Control System, but still forces a decision between the two elements, bombing and boomsticks, and means it still might want Extra Munitions. The bombing mod is basically there to provide SOME assistance to all Imperials and allow them to pick up chips, this, LRS, and Frame, because many of them need stacking fixes, as well as improving imperial bombs, and potentially giving you some benefit for self-bombing with Deathrain.

7 minutes ago, Astech said:

True, but it works on the inevitable turns where the punisher either bumps something or does a red maneuver. FCS is more or less wasted, and the only other decent option is sensor jammer, which is kind of ridiculous.

Collision Detector is never bad.

E: also if you're equipping AC you may as well not bother with Unguided Rockets at all tbh. AC on your primary will do basically the same thing.

Advanced Sensors, Lightweight Frame, Unguided Rockets Punisher is fun. Not top tier, but fun.

Really like that! Looks crazy on first glance, but then you realize that it's still the same Punisher stat-wise. So it's a lot better, but still punishes (pun not intended) bad flying almost immediately.

3 hours ago, Astech said:

I think the title needs to be:
TIE Punisher - Your upgrade bar gains the [torpedo] and [missile] icons. You may equip 3 different modifications. The cost of each of your equipped secondary weapons is reduced by one.

It might keep them a tad below Scurrg level, but I feel that accuracy corrector, unguided rockets, lightweight frame punishers for 25 points might be a bit crazy. Nevertheless, a very good fix.

I wanted some kind of title to reduce ordnance cost since the bomber came out, cause I always felt sad about the fact that using all the upgrades would be stupid. However looking at the meta, especially at the tripple toilet seat lists we had not so long ago I would advise against a zero cost title with punct reduction. Instead I would favor an expensive title with a flatrate.

Something like

------------------------------------

Title: Standardized Ordnance

You may equip another Title.

All your Rocket and Proton Torpedo upgrades cost 0 Points.

Cost 6-8

-------------------------------------

You do not push Alpha strike with this, but you can fully load your bombers and punishers for a reasonable price.

With Punishers, I tend to feel that what they need isn't better ordnance, but better survival. "Interdictor Corps Pilot: Title, TIE Punisher only, 0 pts: When you perform a Boost action, you may perform a free Reinforce action. If your pilot skill is 3 or higher, gain an Elite upgrade slot." I feel like Reinforce would be more fun than Evade (plus it isn't just an IG-88-C rip off), even if the front/in-arc and rear/out-of-arc coverages are really unequal.

A crew option could be fun. "Expanded Crew Pod: Torpedo-Missile-Bomb, TIE Punisher only, -2 pts: Gain a Crew upgrade slot. This upgrade requires a torpedo, missile, and bomb slot". Kind of a cross between Chardaan Refit and TIE Shuttle. One of the ordnance pods is re-equiped as a crew pod.

To get in old ships in on the reload fun: "Repurposed Bomb Bays: Bomb, 0 pts: Your action bar gains the Reload action. You may not drop bombs." I wouldn't make this Punisher-only, here are a few ships which could use it--coolest would be the Firespray, with how often that thing misses an arc anyway; silliest would be to get a bomb from Sabine or Cad Bane crew. Since Extra Munitions already exists, I wanted it to be a bit of a trade-off in terms of game role. The wave 12 Reload ships don't have bombs to supplement their offense on weapons-disabled turns, and I don't think existing ships should get that option.

The three new cards would work together fairly well.

Redline with all three could equip VI, FCS, Proton Torpedoes, and Cluster Missiles for 38 points. Protons at long range (easier with PS 9 to get the first lock), Clusters the next round, and after that either a Boost into Reinforce for protection or a Reload if you're safe enough from incoming fire.

Deathfire gains the least, just the top title. However, adding a reinforce and an Elite to the 36 pt. AdvS/UR/Bomblet/LWF build would be nice.

Generics would be strong, too. Black Eight Squadron looks pretty scary. You could equip Deadeye from the title, Recon Specialist from ECP, and have reload for 25 points before adding torps or missiles. FCS/PlasmaT/Ion Pulse Missiles/GC brings it all to 33. Cutlass with Title, Expanded Crew Pod, Accuracy Corrector, and LWF would drop down to 24 points. Add Intelligence Agent and run a squad of 4. With the consistent dice, high HP, free Reinforce actions, and great blocking power, it'd be a strong squad working in an odd way. That's actually the version which scares me most; it might simply be too hard to kill. On top of that, it's a Punisher without any ordnance, so it doesn't really fit thematically.

Punisher fixes can go a few ways:

Make them cheaper

Make them tougher

Make them shootier.

My preference is cheaper and shootier, but you could certainly go for tougher as another otpion.

Reinforce-boost is pretty bad though. Punishers don't want to be boosting if they can avoid it, they want to be target locking and focusing.

20 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Punisher fixes can go a few ways:

Make them cheaper

Make them tougher

Make them shootier.

My preference is cheaper and shootier, but you could certainly go for tougher as another otpion.

Reinforce-boost is pretty bad though. Punishers don't want to be boosting if they can avoid it, they want to be target locking and focusing.

Hhhhmmm improve the Punisher you say, sounds like fun to me; I'll take tougher and Shootier please

Modification: Strike Craft - Cost 1pt

"Must have 2 Torpedo Upgrade slots on your upgrade bar. Your action bar gains the Reload Action. You may equip a second Modification costing 1pt or less for free"

Title - TIE Interdictor - Costs 2pts (generic)

"TIE punisher only. Your action bar gains the Reinforce Action and your upgrade bar gains EITHER a Tech or EPT upgrade slot. Whenever you performing a Reinforce action you may perform a Focus action as a free action"

The Mod doesn't just help the Punisher, it helps all the old ordinance carriers (even the Y-wing), the title males the Punisher a little more flexible, and hopefully alot tougher.

Yup the Scout definitely needs Reload.

Wait.

Want

19 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Yup the Scout definitely needs Reload.

Wait.

ah yes, Jumpmasters - easy fix, though:

Modification: Strike Craft - Cost 1pt
"Small Ship Only. Must have 2 Torpedo Upgrade slots on your upgrade bar. Your action bar gains the Reload Action. You may equip a second Modification costing 1pt or less for free"

fixed

If we're discussing punisher fixes how about something like:

{torpedo}{torpedo}, TIE only, Action: Regenerate 1 shield token, assign a weapons disabled token to this ship.

It would only go on a Punisher at present as bombers have no shields to regenerate, but could be released with a new Imperial twin torpedo platform (say FO bomber), and it leverages the punisher's main advantage over the bomber (shields) and fixes it's main problem (dying to fast to jutsify actually filling it's ordnance slots).

Another version might be:

{torpedo}, TIE only, Action: discard this card regenerate shield tokes equal to your max shields.

This one is less open ended but doesn't eat your extra munitions slot.

If punisher gained reload action for free, and maybe a point cost reduction on missile/torpedoes, would that bring it in line of where it would be balanced with other ships?

In my opinion, the real problem with the punisher isn't power. Missiles, Torpedoes, Bombs, Extra Munitions, Guidance Chips, the Punisher has the power. What it's lacking in is cost versus survivability. -1 agility for 3 shields is not a great trade-off from the (already fragile) TIE Bomber. It also minorly suffers from a lack of EPTs. So the punisher really needs a card that simultaneously makes it harder to nuke, decreases its cost, and gives it an EPT. In my opinion, the Punisher would be fixed by this:

TIE Interdictor

TIE Punisher only. Title.

Your upgrade bar gains the [EPT] icon. Increase the maximum range of all your attacks by one (to a maximum of 4). You may not equip [bomb] upgrades.

Cost -2

And also

Advanced TIE Bomber

TIE Punisher only. Title.

Your upgrade bar gains the [bomb] and [EPT] icons. Once per round, at any time, you may drop any bomb. You may drop multiple bombs per round. You may not perform secondary weapon attacks.

Cost -4

Also, I think a bullseye arc would be nice on the punisher. Too bad it didn't exist when they made it...

2 hours ago, churchwarden said:

If punisher gained reload action for free, and maybe a point cost reduction on missile/torpedoes, would that bring it in line of where it would be balanced with other ships?

Probably not.

It needs something to improve its targetting capacity as well - LRS helps, but it's a compromise.

>Crew Slot

>Crew: Pilot (1)

>Passengers: None

But if you drop that you can get your double missile slot back if somebody wants to try and make UG work.

I concur that a price drop, the addition of reload action, an EPT and probably some general special ability related to firing more ordnance would be good though. Primary issue is the Punisher not actually using everything it can carry. Maybe if you could adjust the number of slots or upgrades pre-game that would be interesting? Like if you could sidebar your munitions almost.

52 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

I like Fine Engine Control and also usefull on multiple other ships that are already on the tables. I think Starvipers and A wings might be tempted away from Autothrusters for it.

With the new B-17 expansion, we'll get Trajectory Simulator + Bomblet Generator = the Shuffleboard Punisher!

Hawkstrike, I'm stealing that... shuffleboard bombing... don't get me wrong, I'm digging a lot of these upgrades with the new ships, but Trajectory Simulator is kinda insane....