ok, so I'm planning for a tournament (see my other thread, update coming soon) where I'm going to play a non-meta rebel list and I got into the grove of squad building and came up with this;

Double Lancers

Asajj Ventris (37) Veteran Instincts (1), Latts Razi (2), Burnout SLAM(1), Glitterstimm(2), Shadow Caster(3), Gyroscopic Targeting(2)

ketso Onyo(38), Adaptability (0), Dengar(3), Burnout SLAM(1), Glitterstimm(2), Engine Upgrade (4)

total - 96pts

i have no idea if its got any legs even as a casual list, but if nothing else its **** fast

I think you need VI on Ketsu. I see what you are trying to do by having them both at PS8, but with Ketsu's ability, you want him as him up as possible. I would also consider inertial dampners instead of burnout for the same reason. Anything you can do to get free tractor tokens. And if you put VI on Ketsu, definitely move the title to her too.

Your crew on each ship is perfect. I would consider PTL on Assajj, you can make her more defensive with focus/evade/latts.

I would switch adaptability for VI, and possibly change both IDs for Glitterstims.

41 minutes ago, Biggsy_boy said:

I think you need VI on Ketsu. I see what you are trying to do by having them both at PS8, but with Ketsu's ability, you want him as him up as possible. I would also consider inertial dampners instead of burnout for the same reason. Anything you can do to get free tractor tokens. And if you put VI on Ketsu, definitely move the title to her too.

Your crew on each ship is perfect. I would consider PTL on Assajj, you can make her more defensive with focus/evade/latts.

the reason I left the title on Asajj is I see Ketsu keeping her(?) firing arc's overlapped to make the most of her pilot ability (hence EI), where as Asajj can move her arc freely to trigger her ability and so get a double de-buff on whatever ship is in that arc.

as for VI over Adaptability, yeh i can see the logic behind that

i did consider Inertial Dampeners or a second set of glitterstimm over Burnout SLAM on both ships, but in the end I'm planning on maximum speed as often as possible as i really don't want to get boxed in by a swarm/semi-swarm

43 minutes ago, Surak said:

the reason I left the title on Asajj is I see Ketsu keeping her(?) firing arc's overlapped to make the most of her pilot ability (hence EI), where as Asajj can move her arc freely to trigger her ability and so get a double de-buff on whatever ship is in that arc.

as for VI over Adaptability, yeh i can see the logic behind that

i did consider Inertial Dampeners or a second set of glitterstimm over Burnout SLAM on both ships, but in the end I'm planning on maximum speed as often as possible as i really don't want to get boxed in by a swarm/semi-swarm

That makes sense. If you keep them both at the same PS, than I can see keeping the title on assajj.

What do you thinking of adaptability on Assajj and fearlessness on Ketsu? It would be PS7 for both, and if you get someone in Arc at range 1, 4 dice, plus a hit. It would be painful. I would consider that too, if you decide not to VI Ketsu.

Keeping Ketsu's mobile firing in the front is a trap. Point it to the side and circle around. You can still catch someone in both firing arcs to trigger her ability. This way you can keep the title on Ketsu. I really like PTL on Ketsu to get your boosts via EU to keep the enemy in mobile arc.

I agree with Biggsy, you want PTL on Asajj as well to get the sweet focus/evade + Latts.

This is my favorite Double Lancer squad:

Asajj Ventress (37)
Push the Limit (3)
Latts Razzi (2)
Glitterstim (2)
Gyroscopic Targeting (2)

Ketsu Onyo (38)
Push the Limit (3)
Dengar (3)
Glitterstim (2)
Engine Upgrade (4)
Shadow Caster (3)

Total: 99

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

I left 1 illicit slot open. Just put something in there depending on your playstyle (Burnout, Interial, Chute..)

I think if Asajj is going to use the title, you probably want to keep her at PS8. My reasoning is that it's great to think about what ships you can move around at a particular pilot skill. At PS8, if you have initiative, that's Miranda, Corran, Omega Leader, and anyone crazy enough not to put VI on Nym. At PS 7, there... Old Terroch? Backdraft? Lower PS than that and there are Defenders and Pure Sabacc, but getting her up to 8 means that a lot more common pilots are potentially vulnerable. If you have initiative over any of these PS8 ships, you can potentially toss them on a rock before they get a chance to shoot. For Miranda alone I'd keep Asajj at PS8 if she has the title.

SLAM can be really strong on Ketsu; she can move extra-fast to put get into range 1, and use her ability to put someone on a rock. That disruption might be enough to start things rolling with Asajj, but Ketsu also has Engine Upgrade in this list. Given the investment in Engines, I'd probably skip Burnout SLAM on her. I don't really love SLAM on Asajj, either. I feel like Burnout SLAM is best when you really want to clear out for a turn in order to re-establish firing arc (YV-666, Aggressors (slam into a S-Loop), maybe Firesprays). There are few things I hate more than getting stuck in a corner pulling hard turns twice in a row just to turn around for a shot, and Burnout SLAM can solve that. It's there for times when you know you aren't going to get a shot anyhow, so you might as well position the best you can. However, Asajj has a pseudo-turret with Gyros, and doesn't really need to worry about lack of arc.

Inertial Dampeners is something which I know in theory is supposed to be good, but I've never really got the hang of. Personally, I like the thought of extra Glitterstim.

At PS8, I'm not sure if this list cares about an initiative bid. Ketsu loves to move last. Getting her positioning right and knowing if you need to use Engines is pretty important. However, any ship with Shadowcaster title likes to shoot first. Attacking first and putting someone on a rock is brutal. Folks talk about how strong Kylo Ren is for dealing out Blinded Pilot; if you're able to put someone on a rock that's the same thing, and they'll often lose their action next turn.

~~

If you moved Shadowcaster onto Ketsu, of course she'd need VI, and I'd probably switch Asajj to Push the Limit or Predator. With 1x Glitterstim each but without Burnout Slam or ID, it would come out to 97 points. I think I'd want to keep a bid for initiative if Ketsu had the title. Against folks like Poe who you probably could hit with attacks a lot of the time, moving last wouldn't matter that much. But against someone like Fenn Rau who will be a lot harder to hit, you'd really prefer the best chance to put him on a rock with your pilot ability.

You don't need VI on Ketsu. It's really hard to dodge two 180 arcs. You can instead block or get a focused shot while still boosting with PTL.

thanks for all the input!

I'm going to keep them at the same PS for now and see how it flies. Same with the title being on Asajj, I'll fly it and see how it goes.

what i am going to play with is the illicit slots - I'm going to drop Burnout SLAM from Ketso and replace it with rigged cargo chute to give the list another control option (and to discourage tailgaters) this leaves me with an initiative bid of 4 (which around here is frankly ridiculous) so i should be safe on that front - my only worry is we have a few swarm players locally and I'm not sure how well this list will be able to coupe with that?

Depends how well you can force them to pull hard maneuvers. If a TIE swarm has to K-turn/Segnor a large portion of its squad, Latts will shrug off pretty much any amount of fire.

Glitterstim is pretty good swarm insurance, too. a stimm-ed lancer takes a lot of hurting with only 2 red dice.

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Depends how well you can force them to pull hard maneuvers. If a TIE swarm has to K-turn/Segnor a large portion of its squad, Latts will shrug off pretty much any amount of fire.

Glitterstim is pretty good swarm insurance, too. a stimm-ed lancer takes a lot of hurting with only 2 red dice.

cheers, if i had more copies of glitterstimm available I'd probably double it on Ketso instead of Cargo Chutes - and if makes a difference, the swarms are nearly always classic Howlrunner swarms

RE: @Cassan

Ketsu without PS9 and with off-center mobile arc makes sense. On paper, being 9 and giving away initiative seems like a good way to deal with PS9 aces like Fenn Rau; I know I've had a Miranda of mine ultimately crushed by getting rocked by a VI Asajj. I've mostly tried to keep Ketsu double-front, which has sometimes had amazing results, and sometimes fallen flat. I ought to broaden my play experiences.

I had a really good time flying something similar to this. I use the K-droid for target locks instead of Razzi (a lot of people argued the point, however I liked it better in the end.) I double glitterstemmed Assaj and engine upgraded Ketsu. I VI'd both, and had no gyroscope on Ketsu since I was keeping his forward most of the time anyway. I totalled 98 points, and loved them together. slight Variation, not thought about SLAM's on them, but could work.

2 hours ago, SkyCooper said:

I had a really good time flying something similar to this. I use the K-droid for target locks instead of Razzi (a lot of people argued the point, however I liked it better in the end.) I double glitterstemmed Assaj and engine upgraded Ketsu. I VI'd both, and had no gyroscope on Ketsu since I was keeping his forward most of the time anyway. I totalled 98 points, and loved them together. slight Variation, not thought about SLAM's on them, but could work.

I would recommend Dengar over a K droid. In most cases, you have 2 rerolls and you can't knock the TL off with black one or countermeasures, you aren't locked into green maneuvers, and can change your target at any point.

17 hours ago, Biggsy_boy said:

I would recommend Dengar over a K droid. In most cases, you have 2 rerolls and you can't knock the TL off with black one or countermeasures, you aren't locked into green maneuvers, and can change your target at any point.

He's already got Dengar on Ketsu, and being as he's unique.....