41 minutes ago, Democratus said:

Yeah. 270's is my typical bid when I feel that I must have 1st/2nd player with my fleet.

For this reason I've been working hard on making fleets that don't depend on player order so much.

Wow. That just seems insane to me. I couldn't give up an entire ISD just to guarantee turn order.

Just now, Megatronrex said:

Wow. That just seems insane to me. I couldn't give up an entire ISD just to guarantee turn order.

Haha! Whoops!

I mean 370s.

Just now, Democratus said:

Haha! Whoops!

I mean 370s.

That seems a lot more reasonable.

If you feel bidding is too extreme, then change scoring to 400-surviving and not the amount destroyed. Now somebody who shows up with 375 just gave you 25 points.

1 hour ago, Hawkwing said:

Which was my main point. Consider all variables when building fleets.

I agree with the sentiment that there is a reason for why people are bidding absurdly low, which is due to the tactical advantage that such bid may grant to fleets solely built for going first.

The other thing though, are you implying that 90% of lists to go first, win? If so, where did you get that data?

The store champs wave 6 data shows imps bidding a lot to win, but rebels don't. (Avg imp bid 5.5, winning imp bid avg 12.2... rebels 3.9 avg, 4.0 winners)

But store champs are not regionals or majors, so your experience may differ.

15 minutes ago, Baltanok said:

The store champs wave 6 data shows imps bidding a lot to win, but rebels don't. (Avg imp bid 5.5, winning imp bid avg 12.2... rebels 3.9 avg, 4.0 winners)

But store champs are not regionals or majors, so your experience may differ.

On a personal note: When local guys ask for advice on bidding for a tournament, I tell them 4 point bid gets you 1st in 2/3 games. 9 gets you 3/4. Seems like I might be a shade low. Neat info.

In my last tourney, I brought 398 and took 1st player all 3 games. Makes me wonder what other stores look like

Bidding is fine. If you are going to make a list for 399/400 plan on going second, pick punishing objectives (firelanes, Most Wanted, Superior (if squadrons) or solar if no squadrons, would be my suggestion).

2 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

people are bidding absurdly low

I just don't understand this sentiment at all. What determines when bids are "absurd"? What makes a bid of a certain amount "reasonable" in your mind? Do you just think people should be bidding the same as they were in Wave 1, and any departure from that is unreasonable?

There's nothing inherently virtuous about bringing 400 points in your fleet, nor iniquitous about bringing fewer. The point cap is arbitrary. I posit that there is no such thing as a meta of "absurd" bids. The bid just is what it is. It's not good, it's not bad, it just is.

Note that this is distinct from saying that an individual's bid can't be advantageous or detrimental--it plainly can. But that's a failing on my part to maximize my list's relative utility, for which I will be punished in competition. That is unrelated to whether the game ought to be designed in such a way as to incentivize bids of <10 or whatever.

In fact, I think a wider spread of bids is healthy: more punishment in the form of points left on the table means less incentive to build for guaranteed first player which means people accounting for the possibility of having to go second with their lists.

(Sorry if this comes off overly aggressive, hawk. Not my intent, but don't have time to revise it... )

5 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

There's nothing inherently virtuous about bringing 400 points in your fleet, nor iniquitous about bringing fewer. The point cap is arbitrary. I posit that there is no such thing as a meta of "absurd" bids. The bid just is what it is. It's not good, it's not bad, it just is.

Well, I should know better than to sling words into the web without fully considering their implications.

In other words: I stand corrected.

In fact, I agree with everything you've written.

53 minutes ago, Church14 said:

On a personal note: When local guys ask for advice on bidding for a tournament, I tell them 4 point bid gets you 1st in 2/3 games. 9 gets you 3/4. Seems like I might be a shade low. Neat info.

In my last tourney, I brought 398 and took 1st player all 3 games. Makes me wonder what other stores look like

You are right on, excluding ties. 4 points beats 66 lists and loses to 36. 9 points wins against 84, and loses to 21. So, 2/3 and 4/5, respectively. Pretty good rule of thumb there.

There is also a big clump of 6 bids at 16.

No no no no no.

Just no.

that is not the solution to a local meta of high bids, that is like getting upset that your next door neighbour has a nicer car than you and therefore installing a minefield in your shared street access to solve the problem. Sure, they won't have a nice car for long, but...

if you have a problem with huge bids for first in your local meta start showing up with this list. This list solves your problem:

This list makes high bids cry

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 400/400

Commander: Admiral Ackbar

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Fire Lanes
Navigation Objective: Sensor Net

[ flagship ] MC80 Assault Cruiser (114 points)
- Admiral Ackbar ( 38 points)
- Defiance ( 5 points)
- Intel Officer ( 7 points)
- Fighter Coordination Team ( 3 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- Reinforced Blast Doors ( 5 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 189 total ship cost

CR90 Corvette B (39 points)
= 39 total ship cost

CR90 Corvette B (39 points)
= 39 total ship cost

CR90 Corvette B (39 points)
= 39 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
= 18 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
= 18 total ship cost

2 VCX-100 Freighters ( 30 points)
4 Z-95 Headhunter Squadrons ( 28 points)

if you get the choice, go second and token farm/have a truely revolting MC80. If they pick and make you go first, just table their fleet

4 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

The other thing though, are you implying that 90% of lists to go first, win? If so, where did you get that data?

You can swap 90% for "several" "a lot of" "most of the" ... serve yourself. I was not pointing out an actual fact, just a general sentiment.

41 minutes ago, Dr alex said:

No no no no no.

Just no.

that is not the solution to a local meta of high bids, that is like getting upset that your next door neighbour has a nicer car than you and therefore installing a minefield in your shared street access to solve the problem. Sure, they won't have a nice car for long, but...

if you have a problem with huge bids for first in your local meta start showing up with this list. This list solves your problem:

This list makes high bids cry

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 400/400

Commander: Admiral Ackbar

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Fire Lanes
Navigation Objective: Sensor Net

[ flagship ] MC80 Assault Cruiser (114 points)
- Admiral Ackbar ( 38 points)
- Defiance ( 5 points)
- Intel Officer ( 7 points)
- Fighter Coordination Team ( 3 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- Reinforced Blast Doors ( 5 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 189 total ship cost

CR90 Corvette B (39 points)
= 39 total ship cost

CR90 Corvette B (39 points)
= 39 total ship cost

CR90 Corvette B (39 points)
= 39 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
= 18 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
= 18 total ship cost

2 VCX-100 Freighters ( 30 points)
4 Z-95 Headhunter Squadrons ( 28 points)

if you get the choice, go second and token farm/have a truely revolting MC80. If they pick and make you go first, just table their fleet

That list sounds positively obscene....I love it!

Effectively @Dr alex hit it on the nose: second player fleets that know what they're doing (particularly with Strategic squadrons) can be extremely difficult for bidding first player fleets to handle. Those are absolutely my worst matchup when I'm running DeMSU style fleets because it's nothing but bad options for me and it encourages the first player to be extra reckless to preempt the objectives and then get swatted down as he comes in too fast and disjointed.

I find it's not uncommon to win the bid to go first and then discover the other player didn't seem to give a lot of thought to his objectives and then I just trounce him because something like Opening Salvo or Fleet Ambush or Contested Outpost (...usually, with an Interdictor it changes a bit) doesn't hamper my fleet. If you know that your fleet is going to have a bad time against a bid + a swarm, you need to select the kind of objectives that swarms don't like and your fleet does.

1 hour ago, Dr alex said:

No no no no no.

Just no.

that is not the solution to a local meta of high bids, that is like getting upset that your next door neighbour has a nicer car than you and therefore installing a minefield in your shared street access to solve the problem. Sure, they won't have a nice car for long, but...

if you have a problem with huge bids for first in your local meta start showing up with this list. This list solves your problem:

This list makes high bids cry

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 400/400

Commander: Admiral Ackbar

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Fire Lanes
Navigation Objective: Sensor Net

[ flagship ] MC80 Assault Cruiser (114 points)
- Admiral Ackbar ( 38 points)
- Defiance ( 5 points)
- Intel Officer ( 7 points)
- Fighter Coordination Team ( 3 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- Reinforced Blast Doors ( 5 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 189 total ship cost

CR90 Corvette B (39 points)
= 39 total ship cost

CR90 Corvette B (39 points)
= 39 total ship cost

CR90 Corvette B (39 points)
= 39 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
= 18 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
= 18 total ship cost

2 VCX-100 Freighters ( 30 points)
4 Z-95 Headhunter Squadrons ( 28 points)

if you get the choice, go second and token farm/have a truely revolting MC80. If they pick and make you go first, just table their fleet

You aware that fire lanes does not work with ackbar right?

Just now, xerpo said:

You aware that fire lanes does not work with ackbar right?

Side arc ships, especially with VCXs around, are still quite adept at scoring the Fire Lanes points. It's rare I've ever seen a good Ackbar fleet without Fire Lanes because even without his dice, his fleet is still good at scoring Fire Lanes points.

MUST NOT GET BANNED

MUST NOT GET BANNED

MUST NOT GET BANNED

OP - the way to use fire lanes in this fleet is to use strategic to farm the tokens. It appears this is not as obvious as I thought

15 minutes ago, Dr alex said:

MUST NOT GET BANNED

MUST NOT GET BANNED

MUST NOT GET BANNED

OP - the way to use fire lanes in this fleet is to use strategic to farm the tokens. It appears this is not as obvious as I thought

It was obvious to me. Why the **** else would you include not 1 but 2 VCX?

3 hours ago, Dr alex said:

It appears this is not as obvious as I thought

No... no, it's pretty obvious...

I've mostly switched over to bids that allow me the choice against most list, but are otherwise second against the lists with the big bids. The choice of first or second is definitely worth something, and the bid is not straight up bid for first. So that leaves me with 10 or so points to play with versus a hard bid for first. In the end, I think that is preferable.

On 9/5/2017 at 4:00 PM, ceejlekabeejle said:

It's worth taking a quick glance at Biggs' article on the top 8 at nationals. There were only two that bid low 380s - the rest were either fairly near to 400, or low 390s.

From my limited survey, I just don't think this is a problem that needs solving any more. There will always be people who bid crazy low, but they're having to sacrifice something to do so, and that can be anything from squads or upgrades, right up to an entire ship. They'll more than likely secure first player, but at what cost?

I'm going to politely and respectfully note that if it weren't for making a rare mistake misjudging the turning radius of Devastator vs Steve Mazzeo in round 4 of heat 2, I very likely would have been in the top 8.

With a bid of 372.

So not just a full ship, a full ship with 5 points of upgrades

Steve played an excellent game against a brutal list and came out the winner, was disappointed to see him have such a rough time in the finals. Was really hoping to see those Decimators lay the smack down on a Rebel bomber wing.

I can see that my suggestion, has brought up alot of things, that makes it clear that this whole low bidding business is not as bad, as I have imagined it to be.

So I would like to thank everybody for their good remarks and inlightning comments.

And for keeping the tone civil.

It has, as usual, been a pleasure and interesting read for me.

For some reason, my play-style suits going 2nd much better. I just win more. Sure, I've been burned by last/first Demo, but who hasn't?

I've started to build my lists and objectives with going 2nd in mind now.

I wish you bid activations to determine picking first player, the player with fewest activation gets to pick. It would severally curtail MSU list, which I personally despise, but understand they are part of the game.

1 hour ago, DeadPunker said:

I wish you bid activations to determine picking first player, the player with fewest activation gets to pick. It would severally curtail MSU list, which I personally despise, but understand they are part of the game.

That would reduce the game to two pimped large ships, backed by squadrons.