4 hours ago, Green Knight said:

That would reduce the game to two pimped large ships, backed by squadrons.

Two? I only need one ship!

Dodonna on an Assault MC80, 13 y wings.

4 hours ago, Green Knight said:

On 9/6/2017 at 11:22 AM, Snipafist said:

Effectively @Dr alex hit it on the nose: second player fleets that know what they're doing (particularly with Strategic squadrons) can be extremely difficult for bidding first player fleets to handle. Those are absolutely my worst matchup when I'm running DeMSU style fleets because it's nothing but bad options for me and it encourages the first player to be extra reckless to preempt the objectives and then get swatted down as he comes in too fast and disjointed.

I find it's not uncommon to win the bid to go first and then discover the other player didn't seem to give a lot of thought to his objectives and then I just trounce him because something like Opening Salvo or Fleet Ambush or Contested Outpost (...usually, with an Interdictor it changes a bit) doesn't hamper my fleet. If you know that your fleet is going to have a bad time against a bid + a swarm, you need to select the kind of objectives that swarms don't like and your fleet does.

This was the point I was making, only I was expanding on it.

That is to say - as with most 'problems' with the game, the solution is baked in - pick objectives better. The objectives aren't just 'chrome' that add some variety to the game vs X-Wing. Objectives, in Armada, ARE THE GAME. And picking the right objectives for your fleet can make being 'player 2' actually the preferred result for your fleet - if you build for that.

My only complaint is that this is only true for a small handful of the objectives. Maybe 2-3 of the blues, and only like 2 or so of the yellows or reds are really strong enough that a second-player fleet can be built for them and do well enough off of that such that they don't care about being out-activated and/or having to go second.

A bunch of the objectives see almost no play as a result, and that's a shame, as the objectives that do work tend to lock you into certain fleet archetypes. Some tweaks to the weak objectives to boost their utility to second player could help cover this gap a bit and open up some more variety in fleet build options.

27 minutes ago, xanderf said:

This was the point I was making, only I was expanding on it.

That is to say - as with most 'problems' with the game, the solution is baked in - pick objectives better. The objectives aren't just 'chrome' that add some variety to the game vs X-Wing. Objectives, in Armada, ARE THE GAME. And picking the right objectives for your fleet can make being 'player 2' actually the preferred result for your fleet - if you build for that.

My only complaint is that this is only true for a small handful of the objectives. Maybe 2-3 of the blues, and only like 2 or so of the yellows or reds are really strong enough that a second-player fleet can be built for them and do well enough off of that such that they don't care about being out-activated and/or having to go second.

A bunch of the objectives see almost no play as a result, and that's a shame, as the objectives that do work tend to lock you into certain fleet archetypes. Some tweaks to the weak objectives to boost their utility to second player could help cover this gap a bit and open up some more variety in fleet build options.

Hearken unto this, my friends. I present to you a person who understands the soul of Armada.

Not saying it's really needed but the simplest way to curtail the bidding system it to just make it random. If you still want a reason for some bids, make it a roll off and +1 to side that has the highest bid (if you want to use a coin, give the lowest bidder the ability to force another flip). It's probably the cleanest way to stop super low bidding and it might be better for the game because it will force people to get used to playing as first or second.

Just to be clear. GAME IS GOOD NOW.

1 hour ago, ImpStarDeuces said:

Not saying it's really needed but the simplest way to curtail the bidding system it to just make it random. If you still want a reason for some bids, make it a roll off and +1 to side that has the highest bid (if you want to use a coin, give the lowest bidder the ability to force another flip). It's probably the cleanest way to stop super low bidding and it might be better for the game because it will force people to get used to playing as first or second.

Just to be clear. GAME IS GOOD NOW.

I would think the easiest way to curtail the crazy bidding system is to win as second player, personally. Bid 350, you still gotta beat me and my list that's designed to want to be second player but can function as first if given the opportunity.

6 hours ago, geek19 said:

I would think the easiest way to curtail the crazy bidding system is to win as second player, personally. Bid 350, you still gotta beat me and my list that's designed to want to be second player but can function as first if given the opportunity.

But that doesn't actually stop the bid or the incentive to bid.

6 minutes ago, ImpStarDeuces said:

But that doesn't actually stop the bid or the incentive to bid.

Them losing stops a lot of things. It stops people (i'm not accusing you of any of this, mind you. it's all a general people/you/opponent in this response) from assuming Avenger BT with a 75 point bid is unbeatable. It stops me from needing to be super concerned about if I bid enough to beat their bid, it stops me from needing to worry about how I'll have to activate a ship first. If I KNOW that ABT is coming for me (since that's REALLY what a lot of the bid arguments break down to), I can start figuring out HOW to beat it, knowing I'm going to be activating second (and if you can't crack an ISD, I got bad news for you for next wave....). He can kill one of my ships, but if I get the win on objective points or by killing it first/trading it for my Admonition, that's a win for me.

Importantly, it also stops the game from just devolving into a matter of who bid more and spiraling downwards from there. The fact that there are good second player lists that win consistently (Ackbar, Rieekan aces as Rebel examples) proves that while you CAN bid a bunch of points, it still comes down to how you run your list and how you play it all out. You can throw Avenger forward and kill my Yavaris, but if Rieekan says it and the 3 B-wing friends it brought with it get to keep activating one last time, well, then that's a trade I'm pretty sure I'm willing to make.

There will always be a reason to bid, there's always a reason to want to go first (it's a game based around activations and piece trading, and Demolisher/MC30s still exist), but it's not always the Be-All-End-All. HOW you pilot your ships matters too. Example: I can give a random player @Snipafist's Adepticon winning fleet with (IIRC) 3 Raiders and a (Again, IIRC) 17 point bid. But if you don't know HOW to fly Raiders, all those extra ships and bid don't mean nothing. You could hand ME a 50 point bid ABT fleet and I'd still probably lose with it, as I've never played a game as an Imp. I would probably be able to end a ship or so, but would I be able to get the win from that? No idea.

There's always the worry someone will just netlist an ABT 19 point bid fleet or whatever. By knowing my fleet and objectives (hullo, strategic squadrons) and how to keep mining them for points, well that's a battle I'm willing to fight any day of the week. I'm not saying "don't bid for first ever" but I AM saying "know your fleet or else you gonna get stomped if someone shows up with a bigger bid. Know your objectives and choose them wisely." In MY OWN PERSONAL case, i usually default to just having life-ruining objectives with my fleet if I assume I'm going second.

Just seconding what @geek19 is saying above. It seems to come and go, but I've seen situations where bids start getting out of control when it's widely assumed that the best fleets MUST go first (with reports of some current Avenger Boarding Troopers fleets going for 30+ point bids, it seems to be coming back for now). The problem is once a competent second player fleet that knows how to play to its objectives and has an answer for first player shenanigans shows up, those big bid fleets will struggle. Look at all the VCXs in the top 8 at Nationals and you'll see what I mean - Strategic squadrons are a simple but strong way to make a strong second-player-focused objective fleet that can milk a lot of points from objectives. Once strong second player fleets start making a decent showing, the big bid fleets are effectively making sharper and sharper bids only to outdo one another and getting increasingly less competitive against the second player fleets. This inevitably causes a snapback to less extreme bids once the bid fleets realize they're losing more than they'd like and the harder they bid against one another the weaker they're becoming to the new guy on the scene.

To repeat myself/summarize, so long as a local community's impression is that the only fleets that can win are those that go first, however, bids will slowly spiral out of control as fleets that want to go first get outbid and then the players make harsher cuts to reclaim first only to be in turn outbid again and so on. Once a strong second player fleet shows up, however, sanity will slowly be restored as players now make rational decisions in light of a more nuanced situation.

I think my only problem with the bid is that it actually cuts both ways. This thread has basically been talking about the 1st player option but bidding for second is a thing as well. Example: A list planning to go second with a lot of strategic could lose out heavily if they don't get their objective advantage. Armada has always seemed to me to be the odd one out as probably the only game where you can guarantee going first or second. Even 40k kind of played with the idea recently and that lasted all but a month before they FAQed it out. Armada is IMO more balanced but for the life of me I can't think of another game that follows the same turn determination.

I'm also not sure what you would actually lose by axing the bid system anyway. You'd force people to plan for both first or second (you still have to now but you can weigh it heavily in your favor). Power pieces like Demolisher and BTAvenger would still be good without a bid system but you'd be forced to learn to play them without the initiative advantage and those pieces are still so good that they'd still pull their weight. Losing the bid would also probably tone down the activation advantage since first/last will not be a guarantee. You'd force people planning to play their own objectives to get used to being first player. Axing the bid just might make all players better in general.

I digress though, Armada is in a good spot right now. I only bring up these points as food for thought and not as Admiral "Ben" Nelson.

A good fleet designed to go second has to be able to win if it is made to go first. The point behind that Akbar monstrosity I gave as an example is that it is a fleet that even if you are a fleet designed to go second, you don't want to give first player to it as it has 6 activations, most of which are nasty and a particularly horrible MC80 which is just itching for a first/last Ackbar slash if give the opportunity as first player.

Yes if you are a one trick pony second player fleet, you will struggle going first, a really good fleet though is able to do both, well.

On ‎8‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 10:48 PM, geek19 said:

Two? I only need one ship!

Dodonna on an Assault MC80, 13 y wings.

that is a list I was looking at taking to a tournament for fun

I don't worry about low bidders as I make sure that my list can beat any Blue Objective If I'm first player and really Punish players with my objectives that really strengthen my list. I still hate the out activation part of the game tho as, despite all the arguments that it does not, it limits list building.

On 9/8/2017 at 1:30 AM, Green Knight said:

That would reduce the game to two pimped large ships, backed by squadrons.

Simple, just take 3 activations, with one being a flanker speed racing flottila that flys across the rear edge. Then the games shift from your ships goes my ship goes, to your fleet goes then my fleet goes, with the first players activation broken up by an activation that doesn't matter. Also, this would guarantee that a player would have option of reacting to each other players move, which I feel is good. Plus, as many players have pointed out, going second isn't always bad.

I feel this curtail extreme activation lists, and bring more variation in fleets size.

Also, I brought this up in another thread opposed to it own, because I am not sure if it a good idea/have not really thought it through. And I have not played in almost 6 months, so between the new wave and FAQ, I don't really have feel for the current state of the game.