12 minutes ago, phild0 said:

Reverse the nerf? Nah. It was a good change.

In fact, more upgrades should get the " Palpatine treatment" where you commit to using an upgrade prior to rolling dice. Latts Razzi crew would be a good candidate.

I have less of an issue with Latts (except on asajj, which is of course the problem, since that's the only place you see the crew), since the target has to be stressed and you have to CLEAR the stress for them, so it has theoretical downsides, where there was no downside for palp.

4 hours ago, SabineKey said:

While I would prefer to move forward than back, with the lack of forward movement as far as bringing about balance goes, reversing the Palp nerf and/or removing the stress part of the x7 nerf should help Imps out. And maybe only until the next stage of the nerfening, but something has to change. I mean, by this time last year the first attempt to curb Deadeye U-boats was rolled out. Yeah, that didn't really work all that well, but it was at least a try. We haven't even gotten that for Imps.

Try PS11 Quickdraw + Vader, both with Cruise Missiles. I think I found my imperial list to finally replace my rebel scum.
Though naturally this only works because of PS10 Nymm, but I think Nymm changes the meta significantly enough to give the empire enough space to breath again.

Besides that, I think x7 works ok still (we have locally a few triple defenders) and more importantly, I don't think that removing the Palpatine nerf will matter either way. Even old Palp ain't worth his salt currently.

Edit: BTW Lowhhrick is a small Palpatine in itself.

15 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

I have less of an issue with Latts (except on asajj, which is of course the problem, since that's the only place you see the crew), since the target has to be stressed and you have to CLEAR the stress for them, so it has theoretical downsides, where there was no downside for palp.

I agree.

But it also can be used multiple times per round. 8 TIES stressed, 8 free evades, etc.

Just now, phild0 said:

I agree.

But it also can be used multiple times per round. 8 TIES stressed, 8 free evades, etc.

Thats true. I'd be all for limiting Latts to once per round

4 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Try PS11 Quickdraw + Vader, both with Cruise Missiles. I think I found my imperial list to finally replace my rebel scum.
Though naturally this only works because of PS10 Nymm, but I think Nymm changes the meta significantly enough to give the empire enough space to breath again.

I'll give it a try. Me and QuickDraw have been good buddies for a while and giving Vader an airing would be nice. Any suggestions on the third ship?

1 minute ago, SabineKey said:

I'll give it a try. Me and QuickDraw have been good buddies for a while and giving Vader an airing would be nice. Any suggestions on the third ship?

Someone with VI to be PS10

Just now, VanderLegion said:

Someone with VI to be PS10

Maybe. I'm not sure how well I can build in a bid, so sticking to PS 11 might be the better part of valor for me.

2 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Maybe. I'm not sure how well I can build in a bid, so sticking to PS 11 might be the better part of valor for me.

The only other PS9 for imperials that could get up to 11 with VI is Soontir. I think it's usually either Tomax or Inquisitor taken for the third ship, with their own cruise missile. I'm wondering if it's worth (and if there's the points, I haven't flown it myself) changing to harpoon missile

Edit: Looks like VI/cruise missile inquisitor puts it at 99 points, so definitely no points for harpoon with that build.

1 minute ago, VanderLegion said:

The only other PS9 for imperials that could get up to 11 with VI is Soontir. I think it's usually either Tomax or Inquisitor taken for the third ship, with their own cruise missile. I'm wondering if it's worth (and if there's the points, I haven't flown it myself) changing to harpoon missile

Okay. I may be making Vader and QD too "fat". Which is a shame, because that's how I like 'em.

Just now, SabineKey said:

Okay. I may be making Vader and QD too "fat". Which is a shame, because that's how I like 'em.

Agreed. I love my 39 point quickdraw. For the build I just put together to do those 2 + inquis with cruise missiles, quickdraw is VI/fcs/cruise/title/chips, vader is VI/cruise/x1/chips/atc, inquis is VI/cruise/v1/chips

27 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

I have less of an issue with Latts (except on asajj, which is of course the problem, since that's the only place you see the crew), since the target has to be stressed and you have to CLEAR the stress for them, so it has theoretical downsides, where there was no downside for palp.

There was a 29 pt tax for palp. That seems like a pretty big downside to me.

Just now, brownj23 said:

There was a 29 pt tax for palp . That seems like a pretty big downside to me.

Not really. And the good palp aces/commonewealth defender players knew how to get the shuttle in to help as needed. But that 29 points doesn't hurt that much if they can't actually hit your other ships.

1 minute ago, VanderLegion said:

Not really. And the good palp aces/commonewealth defender players knew how to get the shuttle in to help as needed. But that 29 points doesn't hurt that much if they can't actually hit your other ships.

Agreed the good players used the shuttles gun, but then it can go down pretty quickly.

9 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I'll give it a try. Me and QuickDraw have been good buddies for a while and giving Vader an airing would be nice. Any suggestions on the third ship?

Either someone with PS 10, so that should be the Duchess or stay classy and bring a Lambda Shuttle with … whiny Ren. Not that damaged cockpit matters that much with PS11 pilots, but blinded pilot is always great to deal and shaken pilot can ruin a few plans too, lastly stunned pilot is actually quite useful combined with the cow.

2 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Either someone with PS 10, so that should be the Duchess or stay classy and bring a Lambda Shuttle with … whiny Ren. Not that damaged cockpit matters that much with PS11 pilots, but blinded pilot is always great to deal and shaken pilot can ruin a few plans too, lastly stunned pilot is actually quite useful combined with the cow.

Not much of a Shuttle fan, so I'll probably try to make someone like the Duchess or the Inquesitor work. Might also play around with some more built up versions of QD and Vader and slot in something like Deathfire or an old friend of mine, Zeta Leader.

14 minutes ago, brownj23 said:

Agreed the good players used the shuttles gun, but then it can go down pretty quickly.

And nuking the Palpmobile with AHM Boba was SUCH FUN.

IIRC I blew up no less than six Sith Lords at Yavin in 2016 (it was a good year).

2 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Not much of a Shuttle fan, so I'll probably try to make someone like the Duchess or the Inquesitor work. Might also play around with some more built up versions of QD and Vader and slot in something like Deathfire or an old friend of mine, Zeta Leader.

Works ok in this list, Kylo + Vader makes it basically a must kill target and blinded pilot against the common to ship lists is devastating for their damage output, meaning that the shuttle get to shoot a few times. Add damage cockpit and you get another shot out of the shuttle if you are lucky. And with Kylo + collision detector you are just paying just 24 points, so you can kit out Vader and Quickdraw fully.

But the Duchess naturally is more fun to fly.

1 minute ago, FTS Gecko said:

And nuking the Palpmobile with AHM Boba was SUCH FUN.

IIRC I blew up no less than six Sith Lords at Yavin in 2016 (it was a good year).

Yeah, I think I got one Sith Lord on turn one once, the stars aligned right and he used Palp for offense. My old man rau variant had Plasmas on Manaroo for a surprise burst damage. ;-)

30 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Agreed. I love my 39 point quickdraw. For the build I just put together to do those 2 + inquis with cruise missiles, quickdraw is VI/fcs/cruise/title/chips, vader is VI/cruise/x1/chips/atc, inquis is VI/cruise/v1/chips

I am having reasonable success with this list. What do you think of changing chips for long range scanners? I am theorising that this may be better allowing to turtle, get the lock then race in and focus.

4 hours ago, Celestial Lizards said:

Idea:

Let's all refuse to use the nerfed Emperor. The card has the pre-nerf text on it anyway. Rebel against the rules!

Oh, wait, crap, I'm an Imperial. Rebellions aren't my thing. I stick with Bellator Battlecruisers, not civil wars against a gaming company.

And I STILL don't have a Lambda. Not that I'm missing anything.

Space cow is fun though!

Asking to unnerf Palp because "other factions prevail in the meta" is an argument FFG will hardly take into consideration, or any other rational human being I suppose. Still, this does not mean this upgrade card does not require further adjustment for some very simple reasons.

First, lets compare it with another card in the game that does similar things. C-3PO pretty much works the same as Palp now, since it guaranties an evade and is possibly even better because it has the potential to increase the number of the evade results if you guess right. He comes at 3 point cost and takes one crew slot. Now lets say we would try to make a crew card for the rebels to also cover the attack effect. Even if that card is valued at 5 points cost, it means that the rebels would have almost the same effect as Palp for the same combined value but are able to use it it twice in a turn since they are two different cards. If this card is any less than 5, they get a better bang for the cost they paid.

Thus the current problem with the Palp nerf is not the timing but cost. If he is to be used only once per turn, then he costs too much for what he does. Two possible options for him would be to either lower its cost by 1-2 points or give him the ability to be used once per different type of dice rolled, without reversing the timing nurf. This would mean if you use him to adjust an asteroid or mine roll you wont have him for the attack, etc. but still have him for your defense.

7 hours ago, GLEXOR said:

K4 costs you three points, but you get PAID 2 points to take X/7. That is a 5 POINT difference! I agree on genius though.

Well, you were overpaying 4 or 5 points for a TIE Defender to begin with...

Anyhow, you pay three points to get a double-action with Recon Specialist or Weapons Engineer, but you have to avoid a bump with those. Kyle Katarn works when you bump, but you'll likely lose your source of stress, so you won't be able to trigger him next turn. All of those cost three points.

On paper, I think K4 might have been fine. It was designed when the only Scum ships with crew slots were Firesprays and HWKs (and maybe they already had the Hounds Tooth in playtesting). Three points is generally the cost of a free action in X-Wing, usually with some kind of restrictions. In practice, however, I think it's just worked out to be too strong, and much stronger than equivalent cards. We don't see too many Lone Wolf/Recon Specialist Jumpmasters (although I loved that combo in my pre-nerf Manaroo + Aces list, RIP), but Expertise/K4/Unhinged is really common. With the number and quality of the green moves on Jumpmasters and Lancers, I think it's just pretty far ahead of the curve. I mean, folks with Tel/Dengar lists would often intentionally block Dengar with Tel, and still have a full-focus Torpedo shot. If you're self-blocking for range control, that's one thing: you should have to set up your actions ahead of time (like R4 Agromech torpedo Scouts) or else go without full modifiers. A no-overlap requirement on K4 still gives a free action most of the time, and I think it'd probably be fair value on points. Flying to avoid asteroids and out-guessing potential blockers should be rewarded. I think there are a few too many cards which allow you to ignore that aspect of the game, and it severely weakens counterplay, particularly from generic ships.

I don't really think Outlaw Tech or Targeting Astromech would need similar no-overlap restrictions. Being stressed and inherently losing your normal action reduce their potential, and you'll have to get rid of the stress later on.

~~

Speaking of Scum things which are a little too strong, I'd also mildly nerf Overclocked R4 to only work when you have [two? three?] or fewer stress. Yes, the stress is a large drawback most of the time, but many lists can build around it completely, and there ought to be a limit to how much mileage any 1 point card can give. If it stopped working after 4 stress, then you'll have to put a little bit of effort into clearing it off, but you can still generate as many as 4 free focus tokens in a turn for 1 point.

3 hours ago, tsondaboy said:

Asking to unnerf Palp because "other factions prevail in the meta" is an argument FFG will hardly take into consideration, or any other rational human being I suppose. Still, this does not mean this upgrade card does not require further adjustment for some very simple reasons.

First, lets compare it with another card in the game that does similar things. C-3PO pretty much works the same as Palp now, since it guaranties an evade and is possibly even better because it has the potential to increase the number of the evade results if you guess right. He comes at 3 point cost and takes one crew slot. Now lets say we would try to make a crew card for the rebels to also cover the attack effect. Even if that card is valued at 5 points cost, it means that the rebels would have almost the same effect as Palp for the same combined value but are able to use it it twice in a turn since they are two different cards. If this card is any less than 5, they get a better bang for the cost they paid.

Thus the current problem with the Palp nerf is not the timing but cost. If he is to be used only once per turn, then he costs too much for what he does. Two possible options for him would be to either lower its cost by 1-2 points or give him the ability to be used once per different type of dice rolled, without reversing the timing nurf. This would mean if you use him to adjust an asteroid or mine roll you wont have him for the attack, etc. but still have him for your defense.

Palp has global range though, rather than just the current ship. That's significant since it's what allows him to sit on the space cow watching Soontir et al. shrug everything off.

47 minutes ago, Polaritie said:

Palp has global range though, rather than just the current ship. That's significant since it's what allows him to sit on the space cow watching Soontir et al. shrug everything off.

Yes but he is also a 2 crew slot upgrade, which immediately adds a minimum 21 points to its cost to field him thus the universal range is paid for. If he was a 1 crew slot upgrade that works only on the ship he is equipped to, then there should be no need to further change him.

10 hours ago, Knave Squawk said:

It had clear tournament success at store levels. Worlds is one tournament per year and its the best of the best. Palp can be beat by the best players in the world but it totally skews store-level meta, where most play actually happens. Tournaments at my local scene were basically Palp vs. Palp in final and if you didn't have Palpatine card, don't bother coming.

If you base all of a game on Worlds than the entire game is just those few hundred that can make Worlds. If that was the case, FFG wouldn't make the game and Stores wouldn't support it.

Totally skews store-level meta? Isn´t that a bit exaggeration, as not that many Palpatine builds made it to the top? And now there are way better Rebel and Scum builds than there were in 2016 before the nerf.

I get that maybe there were too much of the same builds, but the nerf was still too hard, especially when you look at the ships which have been released after it. Sorry that your local scene used only Palpatine builds, but that was not the case everywhere. And Palpatine was certainly not overpowered. Very good, but not broken. But same can be said about lots of builds. Some are even broken, but not Imperials.