5 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

I did. ICELOM said to stop running 2 ship lists and MD quoted several pilots that lost to Nym builds with 3 or more ships. Hence my response.

I watched the semi and finals. At that level of competition, sub-optional [optimal] moves will haunt you. Your opponent will capitalize on these. I'm not talking about major boner moves but simply a move or moves that aren't the best for a particular board state.

Of course dice can and will abandon you at the worst possible moment, especially the green ones. That you have little control over.

So the continent of North America just needs to git gud.

6 hours ago, eagletsi111 said:

No. I haven't played him. I cannot bring myself to do it. I'm old fashioned I like to work for my wins.

Maybe you should?

I was really frustrated by Harpoons, so I started playing them. They are pretty ridiculous, but it's not auto-win. Once the Harpoons are gone you have 2 not-so-good highPS ships with 2 actions, and a nice Quickdraw. But all die very fast because they have neither LWF nor autothrusters, and only Vader can reposition+1 other action.

So maybe you should put DengarNym on the table before you complain about it again?

Just now, hawk32 said:

So the continent of North America just needs to git gud.

No. MD's response implied that the pilots he listed lost to Nym builds simply because they were Nym. Flying Nym isn't an automatic win. You still need to know your build's abilities and weak spots, know your opponent's strong and weak points and how to deal with them. Just like in a casual game. The big difference, as I mentioned, is at that level of competition you can't get away with sub-optimal performance.

How you arrived at "the continent of North America just needs to get gud" from my post eludes me.

The Nym build is a potent one. With his ability, native barrel roll, PS boost and Genius he's a very formidable ship. Being able to drag a bomb behind him like a child with a balloon is a little unnerving.

When wave 12 drops, somebody will come up with a new meta busting build and this dance will begin again except Nym will be replaced with a new partner. It's happened before. The 4 x Y-Wing TLT build is one example.

If Nym really is OP as some think then FFG will step on it like they did for the Phantom, Palpatine, Manaroo, Deadeye and others. In the meantime, "Keep Calm and Carry on".

Yeah, the thing is, you "prophesized" that based on two games (where your opponent actually played him completely wrong), almost nothing of what you said turned out to be the true problem with Nym, and he's running a very different build than the one you were pushing.

You also prophesized that specifically for Nymgar, who is not the best Nym list. Actually, I'm quite convinced it's the Rebel Nym that's better.

But yes, here's my apology: You were around 20% right. A spectacular prediction, my friend.

2 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

MD's response implied that the pilots he listed lost to Nym builds simply because they were Nym.

It really didn't.

14 hours ago, eagletsi111 said:

However, what did I get in return for trying to post logic, 12 pages of people saying you're an idiot Nym is easy to kill, he's such a weak ship. Well lots of results have rolled in now.

People made fun of you (rightly so) because you lost 2 games against a completely new list/ship and then posted up a massive, salty, whine thread about how OP the new ship is. Then instead of conceding that you may have overreacted slightly, you doubled down like a stubborn 10-year-old.

It's irrelevant if you end up being correct. A broken clock is still right twice a day, and a fool occasionally has some insight.

On the topic of Nym as a meta force: I'm not sure I buy the whole "Nym is super OP" conclusion. He's definitely very good, but like I've said in other threads. I've not found Nym himself to be really oppressively good. He punishes misplays, but if you're careful his 10HP at agility 1 is incredibly fragile and easy to remove, especially if he fails to PS kill an incoming shot.

Is it that Nym is super OP? Or is it that he's an excellent wing-man for arguably two of the games best pilots (Dengar and Miranda)? How often is Nym showing up without Dengar or Miranda as a wing-man?

I haven't really looked through listjuggler all that much, but anecdotally I haven't yet played a Nym without Miranda or Dengar as the second ship. And I've played against a lot of Nym recently.

1 hour ago, CRCL said:

I haven't really looked through listjuggler all that much, but anecdotally I haven't yet played a Nym without Miranda or Dengar as the second ship. And I've played against a lot of Nym recently.

Oh come on, Nym is awesome with Corran as well, and should be okish with Intensity Poe too. And for scum: I don't think that Dennym is the only way to play Nym, just the best one, because it is a 2 ship list which can double tap twice.

1 hour ago, CRCL said:

People made fun of you (rightly so) because you lost 2 games against a completely new list/ship and then posted up a massive, salty, whine thread about how OP the new ship is. Then instead of conceding that you may have overreacted slightly, you doubled down like a stubborn 10-year-old.

It's irrelevant if you end up being correct. A broken clock is still right twice a day, and a fool occasionally has some insight.

On the topic of Nym as a meta force: I'm not sure I buy the whole "Nym is super OP" conclusion. He's definitely very good, but like I've said in other threads. I've not found Nym himself to be really oppressively good. He punishes misplays, but if you're careful his 10HP at agility 1 is incredibly fragile and easy to remove, especially if he fails to PS kill an incoming shot.

Is it that Nym is super OP? Or is it that he's an excellent wing-man for arguably two of the games best pilots (Dengar and Miranda)? How often is Nym showing up without Dengar or Miranda as a wing-man?

I haven't really looked through listjuggler all that much, but anecdotally I haven't yet played a Nym without Miranda or Dengar as the second ship. And I've played against a lot of Nym recently.

He shows up with Dash as well. And Corran.

Scum Nym shows up mostly with Dengar but I've had a couple of other lists work, with Fenn and a cheap support ship, ideally with crew to carry Cad, and one which I've theorised but not actually tried yet, with Palob and Torkil, again including Cad.

He also works reasonably well with Boba (tested a couple of times) and with Sol (theorised but not tested yet, it's a comedy Sol build worth FIFTY THREE points, relying on Nym's ability plus a MASSIVE pile of Cluster Mines to give him pseudo-reinforce as he TLTs things.).

I've not had a lot of testing time recently, I've been on holiday and my house has been under renovation.

Nym's great, but he's fragile. Against other turret lists, he struggles, and if you catch him in arc with a jousting list or tag him with ordnance he'll melt in a round or two.

He's undeniably good, but he has definite counters, and the ABT version is way, way weaker than the TLT version. If nothing else just for the mirror match, the TLT version should win every **** time, with or without init.

24 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Oh come on, Nym is awesome with Corran as well, and should be okish with Intensity Poe too. And for scum: I don't think that Dennym is the only way to play Nym, just the best one, because it is a 2 ship list which can double tap twice.

Like I said, in my experience he's a good ship, but not oppressively good. You just need to approach him carefully and he'll melt to concentrated fire.

18 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

He also works reasonably well with Boba (tested a couple of times) and with Sol (theorised but not tested yet, it's a comedy Sol build worth FIFTY THREE points, relying on Nym's ability plus a MASSIVE pile of Cluster Mines to give him pseudo-reinforce as he TLTs things.).

Oh I was mistaken, I have actually played against Nym with another wingman. The first weekend after the Skurrg dropped I played against that Nym + Sol list (It flys around with Sol dropping cluster walls and both of them TLTing you through them). It was an interesting list, but fairly predictable and easy to counter.

17 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

He's undeniably good, but he has definite counters, and the ABT version is way, way weaker than the TLT version.

Yeah, this is my conclusion after playing against him a bunch. I've found ion especially makes Nym sad-face.

I also suspect Nym and Ketsu could work, also Nym and Assaj, maybe Nym and Bossk. None of them as well as Nym and Dengar though, but Dengar (and the Jump in general) is still the biggest balance problem in the entire game, including Biggs.

Quote

"What a surprise? Not!"

Hey @eagletsi111, Mike Myers called. He wants his archaic anachronism back.

10 hours ago, eagletsi111 said:

No. I haven't played him. I cannot bring myself to do it. I'm old fashioned I like to work for my wins. Yes the other night I flew Luke, Wedge and Biggs, versus Dengar and Nym (Talk about a challenge). I flew my **** off and got lucky on a few dengar crits which blinded him. I was able to kill Dengar, but in the end Nym with the AC, AT and bombs was too much for me. If I would have gotten half points for Nym I could have won, but I had to try and take him out and with his PS and bombs every turn It's not easy to do. This is why they need to make it half points for small ships with 9 or more shield and Hull. I know it hurts my beloved Punisher, but it's worth it.

The one other thing I find interesting. In the Cannon Nym actually bombs himself on several occasions because of the bomblet generater but in the game he is totally immune. not sure how they came up with that one. Sound to me like the dev designed genius and said no one uses it I'm going to make a ship which ignore the cannon and can use the card all the time without penalty, that will show'em. They should have allowed him a roll to dodge his own bombs. Also they should have made it a dual card, so you could only use it every other turn. just saying.

I hate to break it to you but there is no such thing as a 'canon' Nym.

18 hours ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

I've said it before and I'm saying again - you don't give Nym enough credit..

He doesn't die easily. Period. I jousted a PS 11/10 Imperial list this weekend and won because of the crazy amount of maneuverability/damage output Nym has. He can control range and avoid shots or simply avoid arcs - or better yet, 5-forward into you and drop bombs. You can latch onto one aspect of that statement or call it an anecdote but I think I'll let PHeaver answer any further questions you have about Nym's position in the game..

He and some othe people have been defending Nym and saying how fragile he is even before release. The stats clearly prove them wrong yet they insist in keeping their original opinion. It was so obvious when the preview came out how OP he is. He combines high firepower, powerful (and unlimited) bombing options, high PS/arc dodging, good dial and high survivability. 5hull/5shield and 1 agi is not bad defense. Ask imperial players how good high agi/low hull/shield ships are in the current meta... You also need to consider his arc dodging potential, which is a form of defense in itself.

IMO they made a big mistake when giving that ship a system slot. This is what makes Nym go from really good to OP.

12 minutes ago, Thormind said:

He and some othe people have been defending Nym and saying how fragile he is even before release. The stats clearly prove them wrong yet they insist in keeping their original opinion. It was so obvious when the preview came out how OP he is. He combines high firepower, powerful (and unlimited) bombing options, high PS/arc dodging, good dial and high survivability. 5hull/5shield and 1 agi is not bad defense. Ask imperial players how good high agi/low hull/shield ships are in the current meta... You also need to consider his arc dodging potential, which is a form of defense in itself.

IMO they made a big mistake when giving that ship a system slot. This is what makes Nym go from really good to OP.

Thank you - I'm glad someone saw this.
There's a lot they could've done to scale this ship back. The PS is an easy one. The upgrade slots, in general are ridiculous.

But to your point about survivability: five shields can tank 1-2 munitions or a couple of bombs. Then guess what? You never shoot him again. He dances, Adv. Sensor's, and bomblets you into oblivion. I put Cruise and Guidance on mine so it's got an alpha strike of its own. AND IF I WANTED TO I COULD PUT EXTRA MUNITIONS ON IT CAUSE MY LIST IS 98 POINTS. Stuff like that is what makes this ship OP. Too many upgrades and too much health to see all of the fixin's through.

It's not weak. It's not fragile. And it's certainly not balanced.

17 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

But to your point about survivability: five shields can tank 1-2 munitions or a couple of bombs. Then guess what? You never shoot him again. He dances, Adv. Sensor's, and bomblets you into oblivion.

Yeah i finished 2nd in my last tournament because of this. It doesnt matter if that 5 straight is red when he can boost before moving. It was the first time i used the final salvo rule and my oponent rolled more dices than me. Because they had to give him a 3 dice primary on top of everything else...

7 hours ago, Elavion said:

You also prophesized that specifically for Nymgar, who is not the best Nym list.

It is the best list: http://meta-wing.com/ship_combos?

Just now, Thormind said:

It is the best list: http://meta-wing.com/ship_combos?

I'd posit that Miranda + Nym is better, all else equal. I say this from a position of confidence, though, as I'll put money on me in that fight lol

8 hours ago, Stoneface said:

No. MD's response implied that the pilots he listed lost to Nym builds simply because they were Nym.

No, it really didn't, please don't put words in my mouth to fit your argument.

Icelom in the post I responded to said: "Stop running only 2 ship lists and nym all the sudden explodes in 1 or 2 turns of shooting. I am starting to think that the people who complain are just really bad pilots."

The response was to show a half dozen very good pilots who had 3-4 ships lists who still lost to Nym, completely at odds with the "Nym all the(sic) sudden explodes in 1 or 2 turns of shooting." Very good pilots on a number of podcasts have also had things to say about how broken good Nym is, so there are pilots with demonstrated levels of success at the game who are complaining or who have switched over to Nym based lists.

The post also said: "I am perplexed that people are still loseing(sic) to nym.

Once you realise what he can do you can just kill him before any real damage is done."

The fact that a large number of very good players either used Nym without him dying instantly or lost to Nym would show either a. They're all actually terrible players and/or don't know that Nym can do. Or b. Icelom's statement is wrong.

Nym is an incredibly potent ship who has been half of the winning list in every national since his release, with a mix of Dash, Corran, Miranda, and Dengar co-pilots. The idea that he's really not all that strong, that everyone losing to him is a terrible pilot or just doesn't know how to deal with him, just doesn't hold up.

Nym = Too good

/thread

11 minutes ago, mdl0114 said:

No, it really didn't, please don't put words in my mouth to fit your argument.

Icelom in the post I responded to said: "Stop running only 2 ship lists and nym all the sudden explodes in 1 or 2 turns of shooting. I am starting to think that the people who complain are just really bad pilots."

The response was to show a half dozen very good pilots who had 3-4 ships lists who still lost to Nym, completely at odds with the "Nym all the(sic) sudden explodes in 1 or 2 turns of shooting." Very good pilots on a number of podcasts have also had things to say about how broken good Nym is, so there are pilots with demonstrated levels of success at the game who are complaining or who have switched over to Nym based lists.

The post also said: "I am perplexed that people are still loseing(sic) to nym.

Once you realise what he can do you can just kill him before any real damage is done."

The fact that a large number of very good players either used Nym without him dying instantly or lost to Nym would show either a. They're all actually terrible players and/or don't know that Nym can do. Or b. Icelom's statement is wrong.

Nym is an incredibly potent ship who has been half of the winning list in every national since his release, with a mix of Dash, Corran, Miranda, and Dengar co-pilots. The idea that he's really not all that strong, that everyone losing to him is a terrible pilot or just doesn't know how to deal with him, just doesn't hold up.

That's why I asked the question of you, did they lose because they faced Nym or because they faced better pilots using Nym?

In my responses to Hawk32 I mentioned that sub-optimal moves at that level of competition can be disastrous. What might get overlooked at the kitchen table won't be missed at these levels. It doesn't take much for game balance to swing from one player to the other. Also, some builds are more forgiving of a Faux pas. I think it was the top 32 on Stele TV that I watched last night. To hit the top 32 you need to be more than a decent pilot but a couple of wrong moves cost one guy the game. Watch it if you have the time.

One thing I noticed in the semi and final match was the patience shown by the players. There was no rush to engage but a lot of positioning and planning. Too often players rush to engage not thinking of the next turn. Most of the top players are more like chess masters working through all the possible move combinations multiple moves ahead.

I won't go as far as Icelom did regarding how easy Nym is to kill but at one agility he's no Soontir Fel. He will die. You need to limit the damage he can cause before he croaks. It seems every wave generates some OP combination that does really well, faces call for a nerf, then disappears when the new wave is released. I suspect that Nym, Cobra and Rau may be the next flavor of the month when Guns for Hire is released.

And yet, with all the top players in all the regionals so far, the top players taking Nym have won each regional. Is that entirely unrelated? Did Paul Heaver suddenly become a much better player between Gencon and NOVA, or was he already a top player and took a better list combo to NOVA? When you get to the top 4-16 of a major national tournament everyone is a top player. Does the fact that in 4 different nations with 4 different wingmen a Nym ship was part of the winning list mean nothing? Were all the other top players who lost to Nym just worse players who made mistakes or was the matchup a contributing factor?

I think the top players deserve more credit than "they just haven't figured out Nym, he's not that strong". He's currently the only common denominator between all 5 regional champions, who are each different people who flew with different wingmen in different nations' metas to victory.

Can we just stop calling Nym fragile? Yes he has 1 AGI, but HE'S A PS10 ARC-DODGING MONSTER. Adv. Sensors + Barrel Roll + E-Wing Quality Dial > Agility 3. Everyone saying 'just concentrate fire on him' is completely missing the point that it's ridiculously difficult to focus him because of the absolute BS movement suite on this ship. His defense is that he is now the most mobile arc-dodger in the game AND he has a TON of HP. Then add onto that that he can afford to do things that most arc-dodgers can't: he can bump other ships and asteroids and still drop his infinite bombs AND NOT TAKE DAMAGE FROM THEM. It's like Soontir Fel and a Jumpmaster had a baby, and that baby had a baby with Miranda, and now we have a high HP, best arc-dodger in the game, turreted, infinite bombs, PS10, meta-warping hurricane.

Nym is as OP as OP can be. Terrible design, terrible for the game, and recent tournaments prove it. There's no argument here.

7 minutes ago, Favoritism Flight Games said:

E-Wing Quality Dial

Wut

10 minutes ago, mdl0114 said:

And yet, with all the top players in all the regionals so far, the top players taking Nym have won each regional. Is that entirely unrelated? Did Paul Heaver suddenly become a much better player between Gencon and NOVA, or was he already a top player and took a better list combo to NOVA? When you get to the top 4-16 of a major national tournament everyone is a top player. Does the fact that in 4 different nations with 4 different wingmen a Nym ship was part of the winning list mean nothing? Were all the other top players who lost to Nym just worse players who made mistakes or was the matchup a contributing factor?

I think the top players deserve more credit than "they just haven't figured out Nym, he's not that strong". He's currently the only common denominator between all 5 regional champions, who are each different people who flew with different wingmen in different nations' metas to victory.

Top players tend to take one of two list types: the lists that they are best with (Tyler Tippet or Duncan Howard or Marcel Manzano) or the best lists, in their opinion, of the current meta (Paul Heaver).
So, yeah - top players are good. That's why we're calling them top players.

If I understand you correctly, you're right - It's not correct to say that Nym had nothing to do with Nathan's or Paul's victory.

14 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Wut

It's an E-Wing dial with red 3 turns, and talons instead of Ks. I think that's a fair comparison.