Easiest way to fix nym is to remove his immunity to ranged bomb damage. Means he can still fly over templates with impunity, and can still pull all his current bump/stress/after ion move shenanigans, but now he has to wear the bomb. He may end up doing more damage to himself than to the enemy, the way "genius" was intended.
Does the Scurrg warrant rule changes?
12 hours ago, VanderLegion said:You can still drop em with Genius though (because it gives you an "After you execute a maneuver" trigger)
12 hours ago, Zucch10 said:@Herowannabe
that would be true, if not for genius. Genius let's nym drop the bomb after performing a maneuver. Even though you don't reveal it, you still perform a 1 straight.
That's a good point, however I submit that if you have Nym ionized and you still get hit by his Genius-bomb then it's your own dang fault.
13 hours ago, Rustedborg said:Watching the last two weeks of casual and tournament X-wing games both locally and at Nationals made me start two question if the dominance of the Auzituck gunship, Scurrg bomber and bomblet generator requires FFG to change a few rules for X-wing.
First, the whole idea that players get half points for large base ships came from the fact that these ships have a lot of hit points (hull + shields) to chew through. Now, we've got multiple small base ships with more than 8 hit points. In my humble opinion, we need a rule change that says players earn half points for any small base ship with more than 8 hits points . So, if your small base ship has 9 or 10 hit points and your opponent gets at least half damage onto your ship then your opponent gets half points on that ship.
Second, Bombs (the ones that drop on activation) need to be subject to ion and stress control . In other words, you cannot drop a bomb on activation if your ship is stressed or if it has an ion token. I'm fine with bombs, even the bomblet generator, as long as a stressed or ioned ship cannot drop its bombs. Players need some way to "reign-in" opponents who use the bomblet generator. This also gives players another reason to bring stress control or ion control to the table.
I'm sure many people will say I'm just a cry-baby asking for those two rule changes, but if cloaking, deadeye, Palp, and Zuckuss deserved changes/nerfs then the rule changes I suggest are pretty tame coming from my perspective.
Do you think these rule changes would be good or bad for X-wing?
I don't think the 8HP threshold for half points is very fair on the other ships. ARC's, Punishers and K-wings outside of Miranda are pretty easy to melt. The trouble with Nym and the like is the amount of damage they can deal to you before you can melt them, not the hit points itself.
I'm not super sold on the stress restriction, only because action bombs are already locked out by stress (with the exception of R4-E1), and that may kill bombs altogether with how many effective stressbots the game has currently. I think a resurgence of ion weapons would be a solid counterbalance. With the gunboat coming soon, all factions have decent options for ion weapons whether they be cannons, turrets, or munitions.
I completely agree with the bumping lockout though. You shouldn't be able to bomb whilst overlapping.
I also agree with the elite talent issue on the Scurrg. I think's fair the K-wing didn't get one, and it is the major issue with the Scurrg. As much as I personally love deadeye on it, I think if I were to criticise one aspect of its design, it would be the inclusion of the elite slot.
3 hours ago, Ralgon said:Easiest way to fix nym is to remove his immunity to ranged bomb damage. Means he can still fly over templates with impunity, and can still pull all his current bump/stress/after ion move shenanigans, but now he has to wear the bomb. He may end up doing more damage to himself than to the enemy, the way "genius" was intended.
This.
Poor Genius, the crowds crying for a nerf on him. How often did you see Genius before the Scurrg? Almost never, apart from maybe a suicude Y-wing. Because being hit by your bomb is the major downside of Genius.
Now if you want to be done something about NymGenius, hit Nym! Instead of making Genius completely unplayable. Otherwise it is the same situation as the JM5K: Lots of upgrade cards made unplayable as collateral damage of nerf attempts, while the real problem (the chassis) was never adressed.
15 hours ago, VanderLegion said:You can still drop em with Genius though (because it gives you an "After you execute a maneuver" trigger)
In my playing group we have reinterpreted "Genius" with this aclaration:
"If you are equipped with a bomb that can be dropped before you reveal your maneuver, you may drop the bomb after you execute the maneuver you have assigned in your dial".
In order to ionized ships do not throw bombs thanks to genius, and, I think its Rules As Intended. Genius should be designed, basically in this way: "If you can drop the bomb before you move, you can drop it after. If you can't drop this bomb before, you can't do this after".
Personally, I do not like Nym, maybe just the rebel version. But my favourite pilot from Scurrg is Sol Sixxa.
16 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:Agreed it shouldnt have an EPT
After all, its the Scum version of the heavy bomber. Neither kwings or punishers have an EPT, why does the Scurrg have it? Oh right, scum favoritism.
It has an EPT because punishers don't have one and suck for it. ;-)
And they did not want to give the bomber slam to compensate for the lack of slam.
4 hours ago, Ralgon said:Easiest way to fix nym is to remove his immunity to ranged bomb damage. Means he can still fly over templates with impunity, and can still pull all his current bump/stress/after ion move shenanigans, but now he has to wear the bomb. He may end up doing more damage to himself than to the enemy, the way "genius" was intended.
My view is Nym shoudl have had Sol's ability and vice versa (i.e. Sol gets 'you ignore friendly bombs' only, Nym gets 'you may drop bombs with a 1 turn, and keeps the bit about +1 evade).
That way the better ability is on the lower PS ship, and Nym can still use Genius without Engine to bomb and not get hit by it (1 turn in 1 direction and a br all the way forward in the other misses you) but it takes more skill and judgement to pull off, and doesn't work if you bump.
ACABT just plain isn't broken on its own. It breaks ACES, but only at PS10. ACTLT is much better.
It needs the EPT for the reasons SEApocalypse said - without it it would be basically useless. Look at Emon Azzameen, for instance. Amazing ability, decent chassis, fairly reasonable price - crap, because no EPT. Deathrain and Redline are the same, albeit DR is ALMOST fixed by Bomblet and LWF.
20 hours ago, Zucch10 said:@Herowannabe
that would be true, if not for genius. Genius let's nym drop the bomb after performing a maneuver. Even though you don't reveal it, you still perform a 1 straight.
Moving does not equal doing a maneuver. Barrel roll, boost... Nowhere in the rules does it say that the 1 straigh from ion tokens is a maneuver. Normally the rules or the cards says when it is (ie SLAM)
IMO the problem is not the EPT. It's the system slot. Remove that and he become really good but not OP... Also i still dont understand why they gave that ship a 3 dice primary when it can equip turrets and ordnances??
Edited by Thormind7 minutes ago, Thormind said:Moving does not equal doing a maneuver. Barrel roll, boost... Nowhere in the rules does it say that the 1 straigh from ion tokens is a maneuver. Normally the rules or the cards says when it is (ie SLAM)
Re-read the Ion Token reference card.
"The owner moves the ship as if it were assigned a white [1 Forward] maneuver."
Edit: The normal drop rule is prevented because you do not "reveal" a dial, instead you are assigned a manuever, however Genius simply needs you to complete your maneuver, so you can drop it after via Genius.
Edited by kris40kRegarding the problem of small based ships in the 50 point range, why not simply "half points for everything"?
I don't see why it needs be more complicated than that. Why do any ships need to be protected from giving up half points?
5 minutes ago, kris40k said:Re-read the Ion Token reference card.
"The owner moves the ship as if it were assigned a white [1 Forward] maneuver."
The "as if" in the sentence is important. It means the ship moves like it was doing a 1 maneuver. It does not do a maneuver. Otherwise it would have been worded "The ship does a white (1 foward) maneuver. Big difference. For example R2 Astromech does not make that move a 1 green...
4 minutes ago, Thormind said:The "as if" in the sentence is important. It means the ship moves like it was doing a 1 maneuver. It does not do a maneuver. Otherwise it would have been worded "The ship does a white (1 foward) maneuver. Big difference. For example R2 Astromech does not make that move a 1 green...
Read Nien Numb (crew) FAQ
Edited by kris40kJust now, Thormind said:The "as if" in the sentence is important. It means the ship moves like it was doing a 1 maneuver. It does not do a maneuver. Otherwise it would have been worded "The ship does a white (1 foward) maneuver. Big difference. For example R2 Astromech does not make that move a 1 green...
Except, you know, it does. Per FAQ.
R2 Astromech A ship equipped with R2 Astromech that has Damaged Engine assigned to it treats all of its turn maneuvers [? and ?] as red maneuvers, including the 1- and 2-speed turn maneuvers. If ship is ionized, R2 Astromech’s ability does make the white [? 1] maneuver green.
So, you're wrong.
Moving like you were doing a thing, is the same as doing a thing, functionally.
21 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:As far as I'm concerned, it should be "same rule for them all". If x7 doesn't activate if you fly over a rock or when you bump, neither should K4 Security Droid and any other cards which do a similar thing.
(alternatively just roll back the nerf on x7 and Palp and reduce the size of thr FAQ by just having them operate exactly as they say on the card...)
Good one.
R2 Astro treats all 1sp and 2sp maneuvers as green, not maneuvers on your dial. He does make ion green, as does Nien Numb.
If he called out the maneuvers on your dial he wouldnt.
But thats not the point. The ion maneuver is still a maneuver, which triggers Genius's "instead" clause to drop a bomb. Hes an entirely alternate way to use those bombs.
Edited by Vineheart012 minutes ago, kris40k said:Read Nein Numb (crew) FAQ
cant find Nein Numb nowhere in the FAQ
I did find Nien Numb and it appears i was wrong... Even R2 is FAQed that way. My bad.
I still think the intention of Genius is for it not to work with ions, it's just not currently written in such a way as to make the intention inarguably clear.
FFG release the freaking FAQ already.
I suggest that the best solution here would be to nix the half points rule entirely, then introduce a ton of stuff from last jedi, but don't let any of it be scum. Then we will move on and I can fly tie bombers and interceptors again.
(Sobs into pillow)
Naw fam, but seriously. No more good scum ships. The bullseye firing arc, scurrg, and jump master have no business being in the same faction.
1 minute ago, rafcpl6868 said:I suggest that the best solution here would be to nix the half points rule entirely, then introduce a ton of stuff from last jedi, but don't let any of it be scum. Then we will move on and I can fly tie bombers and interceptors again.
(Sobs into pillow)
Naw fam, but seriously. No more good scum ships. The bullseye firing arc, scurrg, and jump master have no business being in the same faction.
Nixing half points woudl be a great way to make point fortressing an even huger problem than it already is.
30 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:I still think the intention of Genius is for it not to work with ions, it's just not currently written in such a way as to make the intention inarguably clear.
FFG release the freaking FAQ already.
I can certainly see this, and would have had no complaint if they FAQ'd Genius to not get around Ion control, however, then they released R4-E1 which allows you to get around Stress control with activation bombs, which goes along with the same idea. R4-E1's addition makes me believe that Genius's interaction with Ion is intentional (RAI). Scum get droids that let them break the bombing rules. Genius being able to be used multiple times isn't that bad because under normal circumstances, you are bombing yourself and taking damage as well. You also typically only have one or two bombs. That limits its use, even if you do not kill yourself.
Then came Nym, who is immune to his own bombs. He also has unlimited bombs.
Nym is the problem, not Genius, not bombs.
Edited by kris40kHe allows you to get around stress control with action bombs constantly, and discard the stress once, actually.
Nym would be a LOT less problematic if his bombs were not infinite. He would have to pay a minimum of 4 points for 2 bombs at that point, escalating quickly if he wanted more than 2 or bombs that do more than just a damage or 2 ions.
The problem is a whole synergy of things, not any one element of it. WIthout Genius he'd still be good. With a different pilot ability (e.g. Sol's) he'd still be good. WIthout AdvSens or AC he'd still be good. Heck, without PS10 he'd still be pretty solid (I went 4-1 at a team tournament using Sol two weekends ago, it worked just fine). Take any one of them away you don't diminish him that much. You have to strip away two or three f the elements of Nym to significantly impact his functionality.
2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:He allows you to get around stress control with action bombs constantly, and discard the stress once, actually.
Nym would be a LOT less problematic if his bombs were not infinite. He would have to pay a minimum of 4 points for 2 bombs at that point, escalating quickly if he wanted more than 2 or bombs that do more than just a damage or 2 ions.
The problem is a whole synergy of things, not any one element of it. WIthout Genius he'd still be good. With a different pilot ability (e.g. Sol's) he'd still be good. WIthout AdvSens or AC he'd still be good. Heck, without PS10 he'd still be pretty solid (I went 4-1 at a team tournament using Sol two weekends ago, it worked just fine). Take any one of them away you don't diminish him that much. You have to strip away two or three f the elements of Nym to significantly impact his functionality.
Yeah, I remembered the discard is only when you clear stress and edited while you were writing.
I don't mind the bomblet generator; looking at the number of ships that can equip both the generator and Genius, it really is only when you pair those two with someone who is immune to the bombs exploding on itself that it becomes an issue.
I'm not going to step into Nym's other abilities, with ACAB, ACTLT, etc. I'm just in this thread because I saw someone wanting to nerf bombs more than necessary and felt the need to point out that control for bombs already exists and is only really ignored in one specific troublesome case.
Just now, kris40k said:I don't mind the bomblet generator; looking at the number of ships that can equip both the generator and Genius, it really is only when you pair those two with someone who is immune to the bombs exploding on itself that it becomes an issue.
Except it's not an issue with Sol, and anyone who can take both can also take Engine.
But there isn't anyone who can take both except the Scurrg, so it's a meaningless comparison, for the most part, because Sol is just Worse Nym in basically all respects.
But the point still stands. Take away Genius, and you still have Advanced Sensors and infinite bombs. Take away infinite bombs and you still have AS and finite bombs and genius, etc etc etc.
Nym's a whole package, not just one or two things. Same way Miranda is.
8 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:Except it's not an issue with Sol, and anyone who can take both can also take Engine.
But there isn't anyone who can take both except the Scurrg, so it's a meaningless comparison, for the most part, because Sol is just Worse Nym in basically all respects.
But the point still stands. Take away Genius, and you still have Advanced Sensors and infinite bombs. Take away infinite bombs and you still have AS and finite bombs and genius, etc etc etc.
Nym's a whole package, not just one or two things. Same way Miranda is.
Not sure what your point is here. I also said that its (it being infinite activation bombs with Genius) not an issue with anyone except Nym. Its only an issue because he is immune to damaging himself.
Take away his immunity and he has other tricks. That's fine.
22 hours ago, gamblertuba said:Scurgg pilots should not have EPT slot.
Agreed.
This was clear unbalance in design, shame FFG, shame.
21 hours ago, wurms said:They just need to change all "After executing a maneuver" to be worded like TFA Falcon title or new x7 title, so you cannot do an "after execute maneuver" ability if you overlap an obstacle or ship. Crappy flying should never be a strategy .
Agreed.
You sir are a true genius.
And yes, it should never be a strategy, but FFG clearly wants it or no flying as solid strategies in the game.
21 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:Majorjuggler and I reached the same conclusion on half-points fixes. It doesn't matter how much health a ship has, or how large it is when it gives up points; half points rule was instituted to prevent the 63 point point-fortress that was Fat Han. It should matter how many points the ship is worth. Half points on any ship that costs 26 or more should be the rule; running away with more than a quarter of your list shouldn't be a thing .
Agreed.
A bit of editing on my part; I cannot help myself. Sorry.
19 hours ago, kris40k said:Action bombs are already controlled by Stress control. Can't drop an action bomb if you can't take an action because you are stressed out. I've had Deathfire shut down this way before.
Activation bombs are shut down by Ion control. As mentioned you can't drop a bomb if you don't reveal a dial, which Ion prevent. Genius allows you to get around that after the 1 forward, however this typically was not an issue before Nym came on immune to his own bombs as most ships would blow themselves up doing this too much.
The problem isn't bombs. The problem is Nym. Fix the problem, not everything around the problem.
The fact that you've faced Deathfire is amazing, cheers to the lad that ran her!
Yes, Nym is the problem, agreed.
However, I feel that bombs shouldn't be able to be dropped on fast, agile fighters without their ability to react, this is illogical by sheer definition, and a game problem. IMO, bombs should be great area denial or really good anti-large based ship weapons. And, if you are able to strike a fighter with one, the enemy pilot has to have clearly screwed up in his flying in order to do so. That is thematic. Also, bomb-let generator? What was that about? I'd be telling the waiter, "I'll have what they're having" when they dreamed that one up.