PS itself is a mechanic that was fine for a casual game (that X-wing was originally meant to be), but is a terrible concept for competitive play. There will always be PS wars as long as that characteristic exists.

That said, what's happening right now is beyond riddiculous. I'd like to see Nym unable to equip VI (most elegant idea I came up with is adding a line prohibiting EPTs costing 1 pt or less to Havoc) and a global ordnance nerf or change (to remove the "higher PS to be able to TL" thing)

2 minutes ago, Scumwing Apologist said:

THIS!

Bidding is better than PS war. Why? BIDDING HAS A BIG DOWNSIDE- IE less points for your list. This would make a big impact on lists like Denym, and give solid PS 9 pilots a huge leg up as their EPTs would always be free for more interesting options. With PS capped at 9 Intensity Vader and Expertise Quickdraw become HUGE threats- which is what Imps need.

VI and Adaptability have opportunity costs associated. EPT is pretty much the best upgrade slot at this point.

I'm halfway inclined to say that VI and Adaptability should just never have existed.

2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I'm halfway inclined to say that VI and Adaptability should just never have existed.

Wouldn't say that. If we get in a 'Highest PS or die' meta (like with Nym) everything that can't reach a certain PS just becomes useless. In a Game without VI and Adaptability we would now have a cap at PS 8 (Nyms default PS). If the had VI and Adaptability but the PS would be capped at 9 everything with PS 7+ would be viable. It is OK to have the option to use the EPT for pushing PS the problem is that as it is now, it becomes mandatory.

it shoudl be a lot easier to avoid a meta like that though, if you can't ever change your native PS except by doing things like Swarm Tactics or Decoy which have much, much, highers costs and difficulties.

4 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I'm halfway inclined to say that VI and Adaptability should just never have existed.

That's the actual issue. VI was a Wave II upgrade. I feel like the developers inherited that problem (a la Biggs) and have had to develop around that ever since. I honestly don't think the game needs VI or Adaptability, but I can also appreciate a rules tweak where they can't bring a pilot past PS9.

32 minutes ago, Elavion said:

VI and Adaptability have opportunity costs associated. EPT is pretty much the best upgrade slot at this point.

Yeah I'm not saying there's no opportunity cost to wasting your EPT on PS, but I'd say bidding 5+points is FAR more of an opportunity cost. I like that, and I hate that VI, BY MILES, is the most used EPT in the game.

I mean, look at this: http://meta-wing.com/upgrades?

It's the most used EPT BY A FACTOR OF SEVEN. That is just terrible. One upgrade that completely dominates the game in every way, shape, and form. It's really bad game design, really boring listbuilding, and really bad for the game. Why make interesting EPTs when everyone is just going to take VI anyway?

I think this is an awesome idea that would help Aces a lot to be able to invest in things other than VI to escape the brokenness of Nym

Do not rig the PS war; increase lower PS options instead.

I play Ventress with a mini swarm. Every PS bid, VI, adaptability and everything else meant to control initiative is just wasted upgrade slots and points when facing my squad. Nym is also not a threat; nothing a round of focus fire will not turn into scrap. As for arc dodging, a Shadowcaster is hard to dodge and the tractor beam can put an ace right in front of the mini swarm.

I would like to see more options on the Rebel and Empire side for a mini-swarm, but give it a try and you may just be pleasantly surprised.

Well then limit it to 7, I am tired of having to spend an EPT slot on Whisper to make her competitive. Also I want Echo to be able to have a top point PS as well. I think other ships are over powered by being able to shoot first.

If Nym is beating you just because he is moving last, you need to learn to fly better or suck it up and spend the points to make sure your list is all 10s or 11s. But Nym is hardly the boogie man you are all making him out to be. Stay at long range. Use turrets. Focus fire him down with heavy hitters. Fly a blocker to prevent his maneuvers. Get a few new tricks so you aren't solely relying on final position. Otherwise why do you even set up the game? Just determine who has the higher PS and initiative bid and call them the winner, no reason to play it out.

Also this game has always been a rock paper scissors thing, some lists are just going to be better at breaking down other types of lists. Changing one of the fundamental rules because it is making ONE top pilot a challenge for you is not what is needed. To all the people who say Nym doesn't need ANY other EPT... Sorry, but I'm sure if he didn't need the VI players would find another EPT to put on him real quick. There is no "PS war", there is no escalation. The top pilots have always been able to get to PS 11, that is why hyperwave comm scanner gives you the option to deploy as a 12.

5 hours ago, dotswarlock said:

Do not rig the PS war; increase lower PS options instead.

I play Ventress with a mini swarm. Every PS bid, VI, adaptability and everything else meant to control initiative is just wasted upgrade slots and points when facing my squad. Nym is also not a threat; nothing a round of focus fire will not turn into scrap. As for arc dodging, a Shadowcaster is hard to dodge and the tractor beam can put an ace right in front of the mini swarm.

I would like to see more options on the Rebel and Empire side for a mini-swarm, but give it a try and you may just be pleasantly surprised.

A z-95 mini swarm?

6 hours ago, Scumwing Apologist said:

Yeah I'm not saying there's no opportunity cost to wasting your EPT on PS, but I'd say bidding 5+points is FAR more of an opportunity cost. I like that, and I hate that VI, BY MILES, is the most used EPT in the game.

I mean, look at this: http://meta-wing.com/upgrades?

It's the most used EPT BY A FACTOR OF SEVEN. That is just terrible. One upgrade that completely dominates the game in every way, shape, and form. It's really bad game design, really boring listbuilding, and really bad for the game. Why make interesting EPTs when everyone is just going to take VI anyway?

Those numbers are skewed. That is simply the number of lists that contain at least 1 VI. Yes, it is used well above the other EPTs, but not because there is some conspiracy that every single ship that has an EPT gets VI without looking at any others. I frequently use VI on a single ship not to get it to the top PS spot, bust simply to make 6 an 8 or 5 a 7 or the like. Because I want it to have the same PS as the rest of my squad so on movement phases I can choose the move order of my own ships. There are more EPT upgrades than any other upgrade type. VI is just one of the most versatile in that almost any ship can benefit from it, and it is only 1 point. So obviously it is going to show up somewhere on a lot of lists. But if you look at the % of use, Attanni mind link, Selflessness, Draw their fire, Expertise, Loan Wolf, PTL, Crack Shot, Adaptability, Intensity... all have about the same numbers in the 30%-40% range.

16 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

Well then limit it to 7, I am tired of having to spend an EPT slot on Whisper to make her competitive. Also I want Echo to be able to have a top point PS as well. I think other ships are over powered by being able to shoot first.

If Nym is beating you just because he is moving last, you need to learn to fly better or suck it up and spend the points to make sure your list is all 10s or 11s. But Nym is hardly the boogie man you are all making him out to be. Stay at long range. Use turrets. Focus fire him down with heavy hitters. Fly a blocker to prevent his maneuvers. Get a few new tricks so you aren't solely relying on final position. Otherwise why do you even set up the game? Just determine who has the higher PS and initiative bid and call them the winner, no reason to play it out.

Also this game has always been a rock paper scissors thing, some lists are just going to be better at breaking down other types of lists. Changing one of the fundamental rules because it is making ONE top pilot a challenge for you is not what is needed. To all the people who say Nym doesn't need ANY other EPT... Sorry, but I'm sure if he didn't need the VI players would find another EPT to put on him real quick. There is no "PS war", there is no escalation. The top pilots have always been able to get to PS 11, that is why hyperwave comm scanner gives you the option to deploy as a 12.

I'm sorry but I think you've missed the point entirely. If VI wasn't a thing, odds are good Whisper would have been PS9 natively and maybe not even had a Talent slot.

It isn't about this or that pilot being too good, it's about game balance and health overall. Yes Nym is potent, and yes he can be shot down; that's not the issue at hand. Think instead of all the pilots and upgrades that offer a better competitive chance if pilot skill was unalterable, or at least capped at 9. Half the tools in the kit would jump back out.

Just now, Tsiegtiez said:

I'm sorry but I think you've missed the point entirely. If VI wasn't a thing, odds are good Whisper would have been PS9 natively and maybe not even had a Talent slot.

It isn't about this or that pilot being too good, it's about game balance and health overall. Yes Nym is potent, and yes he can be shot down; that's not the issue at hand. Think instead of all the pilots and upgrades that offer a better competitive chance if pilot skill was unalterable, or at least capped at 9. Half the tools in the kit would jump back out.

I get what you are saying. But I am saying the game has always been about the best pilots having a skill of 11. They are all built around the idea of a skill of 1 - 11. It is your option to accept a lower skill for another advantage. Whisper would not have been a 9 if VI didn't exist as she would be too powerful if there were no way to possibly get early shots in short of initiative bid. Flying Phantoms means you take that gamble that if someone is coming in with high PS, and you are running Advanced Cloak you either deal with them quickly, wait until you have only the best shots, or become space dust. When you do have first shot capacity, even with the nerf, they dominate the board. Ahsoka would also be a tough call. She is clearly a 7 because VI makes her a 9 in the captured TIE. But maybe you aren't running a captured TIE, and instead are using her as a cheap support. Without VI she might be a PS 7 or 8 so that top aces can still identify and take her out. Or she might be a PS 9 with no EPT. But I much prefer the option to fly her in the role I choose.

And yeah, it sometimes sucks to take VI preferring some other EPT that might be more interesting. It also sucks when you fly ships with VI and your opponent is running a swarm, or some other low PS build where the difference between a 10 and an 8 means nothing at all. But that is the choice you make with VI. know your location/event meta. And if you don't like the high pilot skill requiring VI, get out of that fight. Medium PS ships with turrets can really do a number on ships with high PS who are relying on the positioning to save them. Use the fact that you don't need to spend your EPT on VI to your advantage and make the other guy pay for wasting points on it just to beat your best ace by 4 points instead of 2.

(Warning: Off-the-cuff musing below.)

I think it would be interesting if PS were randomized for each pilot or pilot-class, each game, within a range of +1 to -1 (with adjusted floor and ceiling of 1 and 9 respectively). So all four Bandit Squadron Pilots would live or die on the same roll, but Soontir, Quickdraw, and Vader could all end up at different PS.

Something like [crit] +1, [hit|focus] 0, [blank] -1. This would be after VI, but before Adaptability.

PS 10 Nym could find himself back down at 9, or (much more likely) stay at 10.

The people who claim to be all about X-Wing skill with hate this idea, reflexively, and yet what could be more a test of skill of suddenly having to adjust to (slightly) scrambled PSes in your squad?

10 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Nym's ability to combine PS10 with Advanced Sensors, Barrel Roll, Engine Upgrade, Genius, Bomblets, and TLT/AB....directly caused the PS escalation.

If FFG gave more thought to the implications of releasing this specifc PS8 ship combo we wouldnt be here. They generally have done a good job with this, although Rey at PS8 is a hard one to understand since her entite dial is already green and she has built in off/def rerolls.

Other PS10 ships usually have sacrificed an EPT and limited themselves in important ways. Vader being the exception I can think of. That compromise is a really solid counter balance to the urge to putting VI on every Ace.

But with Nym, PS10 means sacrficies nothing, you get to dictate the field and play single player

Nym's upgrade combos are Whisper levels dangerous and never should have been given a base PS higher than 7. Its why the Gunboat is capped at PS7 im sure of it.

PS7 is a big thing that keeps Whisper from out right owning the entire Meta. And as much as I enjoy flying Whisper its a good thing they werent dumb enough to make her an 8 like Nym.

My solution would have been Nym at Ps7. Then maybe I could run Genesis Red again!

5 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

(Warning: Off-the-cuff musing below.)

I think it would be interesting if PS were randomized for each pilot or pilot-class, each game, within a range of +1 to -1 (with adjusted floor and ceiling of 1 and 9 respectively). So all four Bandit Squadron Pilots would live or die on the same roll, but Soontir, Quickdraw, and Vader could all end up at different PS.

Something like [crit] +1, [hit|focus] 0, [blank] -1. This would be after VI, but before Adaptability.

PS 10 Nym could find himself back down at 9, or (much more likely) stay at 10.

The people who claim to be all about X-Wing skill with hate this idea, reflexively, and yet what could be more a test of skill of suddenly having to adjust to (slightly) scrambled PSes in your squad?

There are different kinds of skill. Some have the kind of improvisational skill to make this kind of thing work while others are better at coming up with a plan and sticking to it. And while the latter kind of player does have to adapt to lists they go up against, they still have the known constant of their own list.

7 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

I'm halfway inclined to say that VI and Adaptability should just never have existed.

I remember an older user (was it Vorpal Sword?) saying something similar, and I've come around over the last few waves.

But given they do exist (one of many early mistakes we're still paying for), the most realistic option at this point is probably to slap a "Cannot equip if PS is [x] or lower" clause to them. You want to bring your mid-PS pilot up to match your other ships or compete with enemy ones, fine. But enough with this PS10+ stupidity.

19 hours ago, Hannes Solo said:

No reason to be a troll we already elaborated quite a bit why capping at ps9 would be a good thing.

EDIT: Regarding imperials, why do you think Sontir Fel is dead? Cause ps9 isn't enough and SF without PTL is pretty meh. In Fact empire would provit from a ps9 cap cause they lack upgrades. Someone like Nym doesn't care much about slotting VI as EPT cause he still has halve a dozen other upgrades to take. For a lot of imperial ships EPT and Modification are the only meaningful upgrade options. Now if the meta dictates that you have to take VI to have any chance the amount of options imperial players have left goes towards zero.

You elaborated nothing. Meta wasn't "highest PS possible" 3 months ago and was actually quite diverse. Now the PS race is in full swing and Nym is everywhere. Why? Because Nym is overpowered and being PS10+ is the only way to stand a chance at avoiding his endless bombs. There are two possible reactions to this:

1) Nerf the overpowered ship

2) Rewrite the core rules of the game

Gee, which one do you think is bettter?

As for Soontir, he's been dead for over a year now and it has nothing to do with PS9 being not good enough. It has everything to do with Sabine supercharging bombs to such a ridiculous level, that anything with 3 HP stands no chance at all. Add the fact that advanced SLAM gives bombs incredible reach and the result is the extinction of all traditional aces. Since it's K-wings with cluster mines that delivered the killing blow to Soontir, PS cap would change nothing, as Soontir's higher PS works in K-wings' favor actually - it's way easier to drop clusters on the opponent if you know precisely where he's gonna be when you plan your bombing run. Nym would probably wipe out Soontir too, except there's nothing left wipe out, so the point is moot.

Soontir's not dead JUST because of bombs though. He's also dead because of red dice creep. When people are reliably throwing 5 hits, 4 green plus an evade token has to roll all paint, or he gets tagged, when he gets tagged, he dies.

The meta just doesn't allow spending 35 points on 3 hull anymore. It only barely allowed spending 32 points on 4 hull (Fenn) until Nym dropped, and even Fenn's been difficult to run since.

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

Soontir's not dead JUST because of bombs though. He's also dead because of red dice creep. When people are reliably throwing 5 hits, 4 green plus an evade token has to roll all paint, or he gets tagged, when he gets tagged, he dies.

The meta just doesn't allow spending 35 points on 3 hull anymore. It only barely allowed spending 32 points on 4 hull (Fenn) until Nym dropped, and even Fenn's been difficult to run since.

Not true. If it were, Fenn would be dead a long time ago, and he's not. Soontir has the option to defend himself with 4 green dice with double focus and evade and possibly Palp. And that's before you consider possible range bonuses and autothrusters. That's WAY better survivability than Fenn has, even at range one (and definitely better at any other range). Fenn's one extra HP is nice to have, but it won't compensate for the massive boost to survivability that comes from the evade action.

Soontir disappeared almost in a flash almost exactly one year ago, along with Inquisitor. That was when u-boats were nerfed to the point where k-wing bombing lists became viable. That's no coincidence. I know, because that's exactly why I stopped playing him. Couldn't risk taking him to a tournament when in some matchups I'd lose before I set my ships on the table.

The extra hull doesn't help Fenn that much. If it did, Soontir could buy it instead of Stealth Device.

Fenn works because he defends either at R3 with double focus and ATs, or at r1 with 4 dice, double focus and either title or thrusters. And he's 3 points cheaper than Soontir.

I stopped playing him without ever facing a single K Wing bomber, because he's too fragile to survive multiple high accuracy 4 dice attacks (triple jumps) and even one or two 5 hit attacks.

It's not one or the other, it's a combination of both.

12 hours ago, SabineKey said:

A z-95 mini swarm?

1 x Z-95

2 x Z-95 with BMST

1 x Sunny with title (basically, another Z-95)

Ventress: configure to your linking with 50 points.

Works quite well: Out of 9 games, I have 9 victories

20 hours ago, Scumwing Apologist said:

It's the most used EPT BY A FACTOR OF SEVEN. That is just terrible. One upgrade that completely dominates the game in every way, shape, and form. It's really bad game design, really boring listbuilding, and really bad for the game. Why make interesting EPTs when everyone is just going to take VI anyway?

Hmm. Let's look at the all time stats. Push the Limit: 10,260 uses. Veteran Instinct: 10178 … I don't think your math checks out.

Let's change it to a different time frame:
http://meta-wing.com/upgrades?ranking_start=2016-03-17&ranking_end=2017-02-02&large_tournament_multiplier=true&widespread_use_multiplier=true&use_ranking_data=all&tournament_type=&

And VI is down to rank 6 in the Wave 8 to 10 meta. Hmmm.
Oh wait, you meant the use of VI during the Wave 11 PS wars? Are you ******* kidding me? Now if Vi would not be a thing, Nymm would have been released without EPT and with pilot skill 10. At literally the same costs. He would be the second highest PS ever released only topped by Vader and we would have a discussion about how this random Pirate is a better pilot than Soontir Fel and Han Solo. ;-)

On 9/5/2017 at 2:25 PM, Dr Zoidberg said:

I'd be happy with a cap at 9. I don't think you'd need to clarify individual pilots like Epsilon Ace. Just clarify that the cap can be exceed by specific pilot abilities but if using VI or Adaptability, 9 is the limit.

Personally, I think it should have been like this from the start.

But in this game all the possible outcomes need to be clarified!

14 hours ago, Tsiegtiez said:

I'm sorry but I think you've missed the point entirely. If VI wasn't a thing, odds are good Whisper would have been PS9 natively and maybe not even had a Talent slot.

What makes you think in these circumstances Nym wouldn't be PS 9 as well?