According to these forums, a good 80% of the ships in X-wing are casual only anyway. (i am not salty.... that's a lie)

Each wave has lots of pilots and upgrades that are not top shelf meta... they are in essence casual as they won't see a lot of top tournament play.

What I am driving at is the current releases are already made for all 3 facets of the game: Casual, Competitive, top shelf meta.

I don't think more stuff is bad, but I really don't think there needs to be a special release of "casual" only ships. Most ships that are released already have pilots that are almost never used and have interesting abilities as well as upgrades.

20 hours ago, Parakitor said:

Y'know, when I saw the Scyck pilots and upgrades in the C-ROC, I loved them precisely because they are "casual." They have cool abilities, and fun weapons like the Arc Caster, that aren't going to be hitting top tables, but have some great theme. Light Scyck title is another one that really feels so right, but most people won't touch it with a ten-foot pole. It's almost like you could tell the designers weren't trying hard to shape the meta with that pack - just providing cool Star Wars spaceships.

Not sure what you are talking about the M3a kit in the c-roc expansion is solid as **** there is always M3a's on the board locally it's a good ship and the new pilots are great, sunny is freaking everywhere. Disclaimer: I love the M3a's and think the 5x m3a is the best list in the game currently (watch nym deal with 5x incoming mangler cannons) however, it's beastly hard to fly.

1 hour ago, Icelom said:

Not sure what you are talking about the M3a kit in the c-roc expansion is solid as **** there is always M3a's on the board locally it's a good ship and the new pilots are great, sunny is freaking everywhere. Disclaimer: I love the M3a's and think the 5x m3a is the best list in the game currently (watch nym deal with 5x incoming mangler cannons) however, it's beastly hard to fly.

That's fair. Around here, the only Scycks I see are Heavies with Mangler, which technically came with the C-ROC's improved title, but actually was released beforehand, so I'm not sure it counts; or Inaldra as a Mindlink focus source. None of the other cool upgrades or pilots have really taken off.

Now, TIE strikers on the other hand...they are a force to be reckoned with in my area. And they are a blast!

Man, I'd love to see more M3-A's hit the table locally. Are the Arc Caster, Light Scyck Interceptor, or Pulse Ray Shield used to good effect?

3 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Do you want Blue Squadron Pilot as an X-Wing generic just because? No, go buy some blue paint

Do you want the Partisan X-Wing if it does not include a "fix"? No, go buy some black and white paint

Do you want shuttle Tydirium as another Rebel spy ship if it were just a Lambda with a title like the stolen TIE? Maybe? I worry that too many cross over ships dilutes faction differences. But I have no problem with a mission insert or some campaign product assigning the Rebel side a Lambda

Do you want a TIE ugly that is functionally equivalent to an X-Wing? Nope, uglies are both kind of stupid and the pure embodiment of something that should be hand crafted and unofficial

Do you want the Mining Guild TIE to give the Scum a copy of the TIE/ln? No, go buy some yellow paint

Would you want Krennic's shuttle if all it introduced was Krennic? Sure, it's a cool looking ship and I like Krennic

Would you want any ship that doesn't do something awesome in the tournament scene? Sure, half the ships they release fit this bill

Because all of those ships could be released instantly without worries about the meta, because they would not affect the meta. And narrative players wouldn't have to wait for 2 years of playtesting to decide if they were OK for the game, or coming up with a gimmick so they are "worth releasing." They could not in fact be released instantly. If you think the limiting factor on ship releases is mechanics ideas, playtesting, or any other such thing then you're daft. FFG has determined a production schedule that maximizes profit based on manufacturing availability, retail shelf space, distribution, and just plain what the market will bear in terms of purchase frequency. Releasing any of the above bumps something else out of the lineup and to pretend otherwise is simple fantasy.

Seemingly, there is a segment of the market that would be happy with all of the above. No one is disputing that, just whether that segment is large enough to be worth it

So, sure, both markets are served by all tournament worthy ships. But one market is served better. Whereas your ideal waves serve the tournament scene in no way at all. So what serves more people more fully ie. sells more ships?

1 hour ago, Parakitor said:

That's fair. Around here, the only Scycks I see are Heavies with Mangler, which technically came with the C-ROC's improved title, but actually was released beforehand, so I'm not sure it counts; or Inaldra as a Mindlink focus source. None of the other cool upgrades or pilots have really taken off.

Now, TIE strikers on the other hand...they are a force to be reckoned with in my area. And they are a blast!

Man, I'd love to see more M3-A's hit the table locally. Are the Arc Caster, Light Scyck Interceptor, or Pulse Ray Shield used to good effect?

I have seen sunny with the light title quite a bit and it does well. I personally really like pulse ray it has done big work for me. I have not tried or seen the arc caster however.

3 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

The latter.

Personally, I think there are a lot of things that seem to be getting "skipped" because they haven't come up with a fix, are waiting for a design gimmick, or would simply duplicate existing design space.

In starting this thread, I wondered if people would want these things now, just because, or if they would feel like "if it doesn't change the meta, I don't want it yet."

I does, in fact, seem like the answer for many is "now would be great!" Of course, the counter-argument is always "well, DIY", but official is going to be preferred.

Not that Gunboat proves anything, but I have a wan hope that FFG looks at what we all talk about, and maybe threads like these with lots of Likes at the top stirs the powers that be. . .

Okay I get this.

So there's several things here. Firstly, you've got one of the arguments against this. I was a little sad there was no shuttle Tyderion but there's no reason you can't set up a scenario with a rebel controlled shuttle. Or Poe in a TIE/sf. Or whatnot. Yes we now have rebel TIEs and rebel Scurrg, but this is problematic in design terms. You blur the distinctions between the factions, which is presumably why we don't have a rebel lambda. And really what's "official" is an impediment to making cool narrative stuff. Most people don't do this and limit themselves to whats official, which is a real shame. And for that matter there are some packs that could be exactly what you describe like the heroes of the resistance pack that just gives you new ways to fly old ships, but that tends to be regarded as a requirement for competitive builds anyway.

Furthermore, adding stuff in that's silly and fun and not powerful doesn't really mean it won't be in the future. "Genius" is precisely that: fun, fluffy, not really all that good and not seen in competitive play ... until suddenly it's a natural fit in a top tier build. We've had quite a few cards like this. Deadeye and Mindlink are examples of cards that were pretty much fluffy and not used at release but became problematic with later releases.

Plus there's always limitations on what FFG can actually put out. X-wing is one of their big sellers, I'd be surprised if they really could churn out a few more "fun" packs.

14 hours ago, The Inquisitor said:

Okay I get this.

So there's several things here. Firstly, you've got one of the arguments against this. I was a little sad there was no shuttle Tyderion but there's no reason you can't set up a scenario with a rebel controlled shuttle. Or Poe in a TIE/sf. Or whatnot. Yes we now have rebel TIEs and rebel Scurrg, but this is problematic in design terms. You blur the distinctions between the factions, which is presumably why we don't have a rebel lambda. And really what's "official" is an impediment to making cool narrative stuff. Most people don't do this and limit themselves to whats official, which is a real shame. And for that matter there are some packs that could be exactly what you describe like the heroes of the resistance pack that just gives you new ways to fly old ships, but that tends to be regarded as a requirement for competitive builds anyway.

Furthermore, adding stuff in that's silly and fun and not powerful doesn't really mean it won't be in the future. "Genius" is precisely that: fun, fluffy, not really all that good and not seen in competitive play ... until suddenly it's a natural fit in a top tier build. We've had quite a few cards like this. Deadeye and Mindlink are examples of cards that were pretty much fluffy and not used at release but became problematic with later releases.

Plus there's always limitations on what FFG can actually put out. X-wing is one of their big sellers, I'd be surprised if they really could churn out a few more "fun" packs.

I really am dubious of the "Faction Flavor" argument these days. TIE/ag to give everyone turrets, the multifaction Scurgg, and a stolen TIE pretty much make that idea notional, at best. IMHO, there still will be faction flavor in pilot abilities, ship choices, emphasis on shields vs. not, etc., that not producing a cool element of the game because "not faction" doesn't float with me.

People who limit themselves to what is official is why this is a good idea, so 1 point for me. And the underpowered now/overpowered later is a risk of every game element, so that really shouldn't matter. Obviously overpowered elements can always get the Epic symbol, making them illegal to tournaments and subject to a "gentlemen's agreement" in casual play.

FFG's limitation is probably the biggest hurdle. OTOH, it seems that a decent section of the player base might be OK with more narrative stuff that doesn't push the meta envelope anywhere. So maybe in the future, brainstorming sessions for one of the next waves could focus on "kewl" instead of "meta."

5 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

I really am dubious of the "Faction Flavor" argument these days. TIE/ag to give everyone turrets, the multifaction Scurgg, and a stolen TIE pretty much make that idea notional, at best. IMHO, there still will be faction flavor in pilot abilities, ship choices, emphasis on shields vs. not, etc., that not producing a cool element of the game because "not faction" doesn't float with me.

Well, you can argue that cross-faction stuff is getting worse. Rebel TIE is kinda ok although it's sad 90% of the TIE fighters I see these days are Rebel. I have no idea whatsoever why Nym is double faction, I see no reason why he should be more than (spoilers?) Zuckuss and 4-Lom should also be Rebel, Han should be Scum, Rebel Lambda and TIE/sf. Hound's Tooth was captured by Rebels, I mean the Death Star itself should be considered dual faction Scum/Imperial. (Although that was really one of the dumbest EU stories I've read).

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People who limit themselves to what is official is why this is a good idea, so 1 point for me.

But at the detriment of faction flavour, tournament balance and recognisable ships makes that a bad idea, especially since you don't need to limit yourself to what's official. Indeed, FFG could release an expansion that gives you guidance on how to make scenarios and narrative play and officially tells you you aren't limited by what's official would be great! (And this has been done in other game systems - a sandbox style supplement can be really cool and break you from the "only official stuff" mindset). THAT'S what I'd have in mind for "casual/narrative focused supplements" rather than "regular releases but just underpowered stuff", which doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

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And the underpowered now/overpowered later is a risk of every game element, so that really shouldn't matter.

So... it's a regular release then? Again, I'm not sure what you're even looking for. Surely the upcoming gunboat is exactly what you're wanting from FFG, a fan favourite from an old canon source?

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FFG's limitation is probably the biggest hurdle. OTOH, it seems that a decent section of the player base might be OK with more narrative stuff that doesn't push the meta envelope anywhere. So maybe in the future, brainstorming sessions for one of the next waves could focus on "kewl" instead of "meta."

God I hate "kewl"

Anyway, you've still not making a lot of sense. You say you want narrative stuff - but not talking about the dozens of cool scenarios published by FFG in the expansions complete with tokens or any other kind of narrative focused kit, you're just talking about new ships. And you want them to be official and usable in 100/6 format. Tournament legal in other words. And you want obscure EU stuff or cross-faction stuff, nevermind that we have Nym and Gunboat in back-to-back waves. Several pages on I still don't get what you want that FFG isn't already giving you.

29 minutes ago, The Inquisitor said:

Several pages on I still don't get what you want that FFG isn't already giving you.

Well, i guess go back to my mission statement in post 1.

To say it differently, I want a wave where the devs talk about it as "hey this needed to be in the game cuz Star Wars" not "we've been examining the meta for 12 months and this wave is to adjust these factors that are bothering tournament play."

I'm not sure all releases are designed like that or even that you can't have "star wars" and "balance" at the same time.

Let's take the "Heroes of the Resistance" for example. I'd argue this is pretty **** fluffy for an X-wing wave, it brings back the most iconic ships in the films and gives us the main good-guy characters from the new movie. It's got reams of fluffiness in terms of mechanics - it makes the YT-1300 a bit more scummy by giving it the illicit slot, it gives us some pretty fluffy mechanics - Finn's special rule is to add a blank: he's a stormtrooper and his special rule is literally to miss a shot, I love it - and some fluffy titles and stuff.

But it also does some meta tweaking. It gives us hot-shot copilot, obviously designed to give then-meta palp aces a bit of a headache. Smuggling compartment doesn't allow you to put the ubiquitous engine upgrade on the falcon. Rey gives us a fat turret but with finn and the new title incentivises forward arc play with a turret ship. Snap shot adds a whole mid-movement combat dimension.

Is this a "needed to be in the game cuz Star Wars" release or a "meta" release? Both ships are solid 2nd tier competitive ships.