On 4/9/2017 at 3:24 PM, ryanjamal said:

1. Limit the number of regular Ugnauts you can have in an arm to two.

2. Rule that the junk droid can only activate after the Ugnaut.

3. Rule that the junk droid can’t interact or be counted for the purpose of control.

1) Ah-a! Now we know the true meaning of the Rule of Two! It wasn't for the Sith, but for the Junk Droids!
It might work as a nerf, but I don't like fixes that fiddle with an universal rule of the game (here how many identical deployment cards you can field).

2) Might be worthwhile, but I'm not sure how much of a difference it'll make. If might, similarily, be worthwhile to consider rolling back the current errata on the Spot Weld, preventing new/respawned droids from entering the game unactivated.

3) I like this one the best, especially because it makes something universal that already existed - and needed to be remembered - namely that some select companions do not count for control. Will it be enough to curtail the swarm? I don't know, but it is subtle enough that it might help push things a little bit in the direction (with an even great push coming in the form of the new content about to release.

2 hours ago, Cremate said:

1) Ah-a! Now we know the true meaning of the Rule of Two! It wasn't for the Sith, but for the Junk Droids!
It might work as a nerf, but I don't like fixes that fiddle with an universal rule of the game (here how many identical deployment cards you can field).

2) Might be worthwhile, but I'm not sure how much of a difference it'll make. If might, similarily, be worthwhile to consider rolling back the current errata on the Spot Weld, preventing new/respawned droids from entering the game unactivated.

3) I like this one the best, especially because it makes something universal that already existed - and needed to be remembered - namely that some select companions do not count for control. Will it be enough to curtail the swarm? I don't know, but it is subtle enough that it might help push things a little bit in the direction (with an even great push coming in the form of the new content about to release.

1) I don't like fixes that fiddle with an universal rule of the game either (here how many identical deployment cards you can field). And on Raining Freight, 2 Ugnaughts are enough for absolute domination.

2) Like that.

3) I really dislike that one. It does nothing for Raining Freight. But it stops the imo unproblematic use for a Junk Droid just controlling a terminal.

Does FF have a history of changing core Star Wars rules to address tournament balance?

When I was a young man, there was an unbeatable army that showed up at all the 40k tournaments. It was legal at the time to play Space Wolves with a general and 5 or 10 or more terminators with assault cannons. No regular troops at all, just several nearly indestructible models, each of which carried a machine gun (it spat out 0 to 9 hits a turn depending on the dice gods) each shell of which had identical stats to the anti-tank missiles at the time. It could rip through squads, tanks, and heroes with ease, and by turn 4 you were lucky to have taken out a couple of the guys.

This was the unintended consequence of something written for flavor, at the dawn of competitive play, when companies didn't know how crazy players would get at finding stupid loopholes. The Space Wolves got the first ever codex army book, and so GW didn't have very much to gauge balance by at the time.

The result was, when Games Workshop failed to issue errata dealing with this, was handled by the community. Even in friendly games at home, Space Wolf players were basically boycotted by other gamers. No matter what their list was. New players were told "Yeah that army does look cool but buy something else or no one will play with you."

I have no idea how this relates but the Ugnaught swarm sure does remind me of the Space Wolf terminator assault cannon armies.

Assassins with combat drugs and terminator armor and a displacer field was a whole other ball of imbalance... I think they could run 16" and had 3 saving throws, starting at an unmodified 50/50 saving throw and getting better from there....

An interesting read. Honestly written. He admits to selling his soul. LOL

http://dockingbay416.com/selling-my-soul-between-us-and-canadian-nationals/#more-8043

38 minutes ago, NeverBetTheFett said:

An interesting read. Honestly written. He admits to selling his soul. LOL

http://dockingbay416.com/selling-my-soul-between-us-and-canadian-nationals/#more-8043

Thanks for posting this! A really thoughtful read.

-ryanjamal

Agreed really good post. How do people feel about an errata to Raining Freight first before anything is done directly to Ugnaughts? I initially thought the 2 movement points cost was an interesting mechanic over the old standard interact but automatically losing 1/6 matches against that list isn't healthy.

Also I haven't had the pleasure(displeasure?) of playing against Ugnaughts on that map. What do the early moves look like? Just Ugnaughts dropping the droid and having it run for crates? What strategies do they employ in dropping crates at the end of the round? Just throw them as close as possible to the nearest Ugh?

Even though Heart of the Empire is going to shake up the meta, I think a slight nerf to Ugnaughts would be a positive change. I think Vader is going to be popular, but I don't see him being viable against elite Rebel Ranger lists, especially on Nal Hutta. I don't see any other units having a major impact on the viability of Ugnaughts.

I did some analysis and this is the nerf I'd like to see: change the Junk Droid's attack to a yellow die. I don't forsee FFG making this change, especially since they just came out with a promo junk droid card, but I think this is the best way to fix the list. It has a pretty significant impact to the Ugnaught Swarm, but very little impact to individual Ugnaught units. It also doesn't require major changes to the companion rules.

The change equates to a 39% decrease in the average junk droid damage vs. a white die for both the elite and regular Ugnaught activations, a 24% decrease to the junk droid attack vs a black die for a regular Ugnaught, and a 17% decrease to the junk droid attack vs a black die for an elite Ugnaught activation.

Here's the full article with my analysis: How to Nerf the Ugnaught Swarm

Raining freights is a problem, but the Dianoga was an auto-win map for certain lists in the past. I think a good nerf to the junk droid will make their one map advantage less significant.

Oh so I shouldn't run 5 Ugnaughts, and the Salacious B Crumb companion as well... and Triple 0 0 0? What is kinda of funny, is that it has taken this long for the Ugnaughts to be found, while everybody has been running Elite Eequaways... or Rebel Luke getting a free attack.... Personally, I'm not bent out of shape about Ugnaughts finally seeing the light of day. You have to make a choice... adapt your lists, find ways to get free damage on the Ugnaughts as quickly as possible, they aren't very beefy characters. I personally found the Wookie Beef lists more annoying when the old point rules were in place.

People just need time to adjust to figure out the counters to take that are still viable against other lists.

I think the above article re: the Canadian nationals said it best. A well-designed unit will expand the game's range of strategic options, not change the core feel of the game. It isn't just that Ugs have balance issues, it's that losing to them is a negative player experience.

I've said previously that I don't see how the Ugnaught Swarm was that big of a problem. However the write up of the Canadian Nationals changed my mind a little bit, especially concerning Raining Freight on Nal Hutta.

4 hours ago, brettpkelly said:

Raining freights is a problem, but the Dianoga was an auto-win map for certain lists in the past. I think a good nerf to the junk droid will make their one map advantage less significant.

@brettpkelly I like your suggestion to change the Junk Droid's attack die from green to yellow. But I think making sure the Junk Droid isn't going to dominate "claim with movement points" map objectives -- which I think is a clever way to make objective claiming easier for all armies -- is the priority. I don't think it is fun that any list has a guaranteed one-map advantage.

You mention that changing the Junk Droid's speed to 3 would make the unit unplayable. How so? It seems like it just limits the range at which Ugnaughts can send their guided Droid missile and would force the Elite Ugs to actually get into the fray.

4 hours ago, kingargyle said:

Oh so I shouldn't run 5 Ugnaughts, and the Salacious B Crumb companion as well... and Triple 0 0 0? What is kinda of funny, is that it has taken this long for the Ugnaughts to be found, while everybody has been running Elite Eequaways... or Rebel Luke getting a free attack.... Personally, I'm not bent out of shape about Ugnaughts finally seeing the light of day. You have to make a choice... adapt your lists, find ways to get free damage on the Ugnaughts as quickly as possible, they aren't very beefy characters. I personally found the Wookie Beef lists more annoying when the old point rules were in place.

People just need time to adjust to figure out the counters to take that are still viable against other lists.

There were people who knew. Locally, there was a guy who ran it before Jabba's realm came out, and it got worse with that expansion.

27 minutes ago, NuSair said:

There were people who knew. Locally, there was a guy who ran it before Jabba's realm came out, and it got worse with that expansion.

DT won the 2016 Worlds Warm-up with it(or maybe just went 4-0. That was a long time ago lol). He said the NPE on both sides is why he didn't bring it to the main event.

6 hours ago, ThatJakeGuy said:

DT won the 2016 Worlds Warm-up with it(or maybe just went 4-0. That was a long time ago lol). He said the NPE on both sides is why he didn't bring it to the main event.

I'd be curious to hear how it fared in that meta, before the scoring changed and it was all about denial. Without newer cards like Shared Experience and Terminal Protocol, the Junk Droid wouldn't be packing as much of a punch, especially if you had to score a whole deployment card.

Also there was no IG-88 with Focused on the Kill for some muscle. No Jabba or Weequays. No Hunter cards.

What did that list look like?

I think he had Boba actually, because of speed and survivability. Not sure of the rest.

2x eUg 10

4x rUg 12

Boba 13

Greedo 4

Devious OR Explosive 1

Maybe something like that, if I recall correctly.

I was considering taking Ugnaughts to world's this past year, but after extensive testing on vassal decided scum hunters were more consistent. That was before the droid uprising; with the new command cards Ugnaughts are a little better than scum hunters in my opinion.

8 hours ago, cleardave said:

I'd be curious to hear how it fared in that meta, before the scoring changed and it was all about denial. Without newer cards like Shared Experience and Terminal Protocol, the Junk Droid wouldn't be packing as much of a punch, especially if you had to score a whole deployment card.

Also there was no IG-88 with Focused on the Kill for some muscle. No Jabba or Weequays. No Hunter cards.

What did that list look like?

He also brought a version to regionals with a Bantha (instead of Boba) after the points fix and picked up a win. It was still very strong and still excellent at denying points, particularly on the Leia or Bantha maps where Ugs could camp behind locked doors.

I actually lost the last game at the warmup in 2016 due to the map being the Dianoga and my opponent managing some sick damage to prevent Boba from sniping it. That gave him enough points that even though he only had a single eStorm group left, he landed Grenadier to kill an ug out of line of sight to get enough points to win.

His list was basically the direct counter as well, as he had eSnow, 2x eStorm, and some other junk.

The list I was playing was ugs, Boba, hired guns (I don't think we had Greedo back then?). Additionally, they ruled against the "Use droid, use ug, place droid, use droid" thing, so they were significantly worse back then.

Later I used Bantha/ETusken instead of Boba/guns and won a couple regionals. This was also before the use/place/use fix.

I considered the Ugs for Worlds this year, but you can just insta lose to things like Son of Skywalker or even traditionally worse lists like Rancor+hunters. They're also not quite as good when people know how to play against them, which seems to be a major problem people are having.

I can see how Terminal Protocol can potentially be a problem, but other than that, I don't think they're just so "OMG overpowered" as everybody is making them out to be. Honestly, Son of Skywalker and Blaze of Glory are just as ridiculous and can also do more than 10 damage and can completely remove figures rather than spread out the damage.

1 hour ago, DTDanix said:

They're also not quite as good when people know how to play against them, which seems to be a major problem people are having.

Quoted for truth

7 hours ago, DerBaer said:

Quoted for truth

Yes, but again, they're patently unfun to play against, win or lose.

4 hours ago, mellowthello said:

Yes, but again, they're patently unfun to play against, win or lose.

In that sense they're sort of like control decks in card games, and those aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

I think the next move for us all here is to really start talking about what you can do in the match to fight back. Personally I'm in favour of going over the wall with everything you have to push in fast. When their 18pts of Ugnaught protection has to face your whole list on Round 2, you should be better poised to grab the win.

Unless its Raining Freight of course.

When Palpatine came to X-Wing, I found it "patently unfun" to play against the deluge of Soontir lists that came with it, but when I started working out ways to defeat it, it became quite satisfying to see the look on my opponents' faces when they thought it was going to be an easy day on the job and all of a sudden the match is over and they're bumped to the bottom tables.

Also we should agree to just be pleasant when we're at the table. No sore losers or winners, just players matching wits over Star Wars Toys: The Game. Perspective is important. The matches will be more of a joy to get through either way.

I think Ahsoka (oh her blessed mobility), Newbacca (tankiness and the threat of his card), and Drokkatta (tankiness, free damage ability, and blast) will help for Rebels, and Vader is obviously not bothered by a pesky junk droid, so there's help on the way.

Still, I am betting something gets errattaed before Regionals (and I would love for it to be @brettpkelly's suggestion of bumping the attack down to a yellow die), that makes this list less meta defining.

-ryanjamal

2 hours ago, ryanjamal said:

Still, I am betting something gets errattaed before Regionals (and I would love for it to be @brettpkelly's suggestion of bumping the attack down to a yellow die), that makes this list less meta defining.

-ryanjamal

It would be a shame if a newly released promo card was given the errata treatment.

Hopefully it's a modification to the Ugs themselves, which is fine for a future promo to have the corrected text.

Of course I would prefer we just come up with counters and work on that knowledge instead. We don't want a 40 page FAQ and errata document like X-Wing now do we?!

20 hours ago, DTDanix said:

I considered the Ugs for Worlds this year, but you can just insta lose to things like Son of Skywalker or even traditionally worse lists like Rancor+hunters. They're also not quite as good when people know how to play against them, which seems to be a major problem people are having.

I can see how Terminal Protocol can potentially be a problem, but other than that, I don't think they're just so "OMG overpowered" as everybody is making them out to be. Honestly, Son of Skywalker and Blaze of Glory are just as ridiculous and can also do more than 10 damage and can completely remove figures rather than spread out the damage.

On that note do you have any tips or strategies for players who haven't had as much practice against the Ugnaughts so that we aren't thrown into the deep end the first time we get matched up with it?

10 minutes ago, TheUnsullied said:

On that note do you have any tips or strategies for players who haven't had as much practice against the Ugnaughts so that we aren't thrown into the deep end the first time we get matched up with it?

From my own experiences running the list at Canadian Nationals last weekend;

If you tentatively send a figure figure out to intercept the Junk Droid and leave it hanging out, it's probably going to be picked off by subsequent activations of Ugs.

When deployment is happening, especially if the Ugs go down first, figure out how you're going to rush the other side of the map.

From what I've read and from talking to other players at Nationals, the list can't hold up to a rush down. If you're in their area start of round 2, you should be able to start dropping their non-Ug units to take out the big damage dealers.

You'll take a few cuts from the Junk Droid but once the heavy resistance folds to your whole list, work on the Ugs, starting with the elites.

21 hours ago, DTDanix said:

they ruled against the "Use droid, use ug, place droid, use droid" thing, so they were significantly worse back then.

Imo, it would be a great ruling, to go back there ...