13 hours ago, DerBaer said:

... just kidding. Finally the Dark Lord is where he should be. Junk Droids don't hurt him at all. Even Hunters have a hard time killing him. 6 blocks on those 2 black dice make your eyes pop out ...

Unless I'm the one rolling Vader's defense dice. So. Many. Block. 1's.

16 hours ago, cnemmick said:

Unless I'm the one rolling Vader's defense dice. So. Many. Block. 1's.

Yea, I got a broken dice set too

22 hours ago, wannabepudge said:

On 9/11/2017 at 3:48 AM, a1bert said:

“The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again.”

I wish I could like this twice more, but alas I cannot. I wonder if the Vader Reborn will have the memories of when he was relevant in Core-Box, before the Breaking of the 4x4.

I would like to vote my opinion as well on this problem. I participated in the Canadian nationals championship today. A few of my friends and I wanted to be creative and competitive so we put together rebel and imperial lists that were good. However, approximately 85% of the people in the tournament ran pretty much a small variation of the mercenaries list with IG, Weequays, Onar, Greedo, and Vinto. Same list over and over again. Out of the mercenaries list about three or five were the Ugnaut junk droid lists with IG and Onar.

It was boring to play against the same mercenary list over and over again, which are overpowered. Moreover, when I played against the Ugnaut list, it was just completely not fun. Exploitation of the game mechanic.

The final win at the top table out of the 29 players was the Ugnaut junk droid list.

I think that this needs to be fixed.

I'm just working on editing the video of the finals for the 2017 Canadian Nationals. Really it's the overclocked that makes this list broken I think. There definitely needs to be some sort of nerf, but nerfing too much could hurt the junk droid, which I have a lot of fun with. But props to Logan from Michigan for bringing a super original rebel spies list and almost pulling off the upset. Wait and see how close it is. If Julian is on the ropes and draws squad swarm and take initiative for the stunning win.

31 minutes ago, NeverBetTheFett said:

I'm just working on editing the video of the finals for the 2017 Canadian Nationals. Really it's the overclocked that makes this list broken I think. There definitely needs to be some sort of nerf, but nerfing too much could hurt the junk droid, which I have a lot of fun with. But props to Logan from Michigan for bringing a super original rebel spies list and almost pulling off the upset. Wait and see how close it is. If Julian is on the ropes and draws squad swarm and take initiative for the stunning win.

This is really the problem with the Junk Droid at the moment.

It was errata'ed to work (at all, the initial wording on the Tinkerers made the list pretty much unviable)

It now appears the list is too efficient, and it's hard to point out exactly what can be done to make it balanced against the other meta.

Frankly, at this point in the meta, if you're the guy bringing the Ugs to the table, you're kind of a jerk. Don't be that guy.

Along the same lines: If you sit back and focus all of your units before doing anything, you are a jerk! Don't be that guy.

1 hour ago, mellowthello said:

Frankly, at this point in the meta, if you're the guy bringing the Ugs to the table, you're kind of a jerk. Don't be that guy.

Maybe in a store championship, but if you're at a national level event you should take the list that gives you the best chance to win

1 hour ago, mellowthello said:

Frankly, at this point in the meta, if you're the guy bringing the Ugs to the table, you're kind of a jerk. Don't be that guy.

All they need to do is add "Ugnaughts" to the list of Unsporting Conduct in the tournament guide. That document is followed to the letter, it's not like you ever see anyone "Stalling" in a Premier event. Problem solved

16 minutes ago, Smashotron said:

All they need to do is add "Ugnaughts" to the list of Unsporting Conduct in the tournament guide. That document is followed to the letter, it's not like you ever see anyone "Stalling" in a Premier event. Problem solved

They could do that, but until they do we're gonna have Ugnaughts

1 hour ago, Smashotron said:

it's not like you ever see anyone "Stalling" in a Premier event. Problem solved

You should have been at our Regional in Toronto last Fall, the weekend after Worlds in November.

8 minutes ago, cleardave said:

You should have been at your Regional in Toronto last Fall, the weekend after Worlds in November.

Tell me about it! I saw it happen at Worlds and Nationals. Its hard to judge whether someone is thinking very long and hard, or they are running down the clock (and that's how they get away with it). I wish games would last a few more rounds, or maybe have a mandatory round count in addition to the timer.

On September 24, 2017 at 9:50 PM, robertpolson said:

It was boring to play against the same mercenary list over and over again, which are overpowered. Moreover, when I played against the Ugnaut list, it was just completely not fun. Exploitation of the game mechanic.

You just needed an entertaining opponent. Like me. I even brought you coffee at last year's because it was so damned cold in that room.

The Junk Droid list I paired against was actually a lovely, albeit tense game with another ex-pat from the X-Wing top tiers.

The best thing anyone can do when they're on the winning side of a match is to, in general, just be cordial about it. I went through a mostly Mercs Worlds back in May, and I didn't begrudge a single person there for what they brought. I think if you're not playing the tiers, or building something to counter the tiers, then at some point you have to accept that placing tops in one of these things might not be easily doable.

So then the question becomes "is the current state that terrible with no hope of coming back, like when the Contracted Scout appeared in X-Wing?"

I'd say probably not. We're all just riding this thing out until Heart gets here.

Also, having ran the list now myself, I think the real swing with the Ug swarm is being able to pull off a 2-damage Terminal Protocol on your opponent on your second activation. That's a pretty devastating opening move. Spot Weld with a regular Ug and move that droid to within 12 squares of their deployment zone's center of mass, meaning the square that will hit the most targets, let them do one activation to respond, then activate the eUg, Overclock, move 4, then activate the Junk Droid to move 8 and detonate.

That's pretty lame. It's the one time in the game having initiative is beneficial. Your opponent can play Devious Scheme to get a better position for Round 2 but the joke's on them.

So you're stuck either stalling for time with your support units handing out focus, as one does, or activating more valuable figures and moving them out of the blast zone. All of this of course is just "if" your opponent gets Terminal Protocol in their opening hand. Dropping 2 damage on to a couple of units of eWeeqs suddenly turns them into one-hit kills when before they might have been able to tank 2 attacks for you before dying. That's huge. For someone with more HP like Vinto who rolls white, barring a Dodge result on your first defence roll, he could be gone in one attack as well.

It changes the entire value of all those units caught in the blast because essentially round 1 doesn't have too much shooting and is more about positioning for the rest of the game, and then it really hits the fan in round 2. Starting round 2 with a bunch of hobbled units really sucks.

I hope that perspective made some sense.

2 minutes ago, Smashotron said:

Tell me about it! I saw it happen at Worlds and Nationals. Its hard to judge whether someone is thinking very long and hard, or they are running down the clock (and that's how they get away with it). I wish games would last a few more rounds, or maybe have a mandatory round count in addition to the timer.

Mandatory round count makes it harder for events to have a more definite beginning and end time. If you stick to the clock and have the resources to run a tight ship, you can better block out the time. Nobody wants to wait 40 minutes because one table is essentially playing an "untimed" 4 round game or something like that.

Even back in 2015, Toronto Regionals, someone ran an untimed Top 8, and it changed the whole game for me. Top 8 match was still done within regular game time, as I was playing an aggressive list versus another one of the same mentality, but Top 4 we really dug our heels in to puzzle out each other's moves, essentially because we had the luxury of time to really start to analyze the board.

Cut to the final table, the game went on easily for 2.5 hours and wrapped around 3am because of it. You can't force people to play faster in that environment when it's untimed, because that's what untimed is all about. We were still moving the game along, but we were being more ponderous about it because we could. Not entertaining to watch, not pleasant to experience but if I'm starting to act in haste due to impatience, my opponent can capitalize on that so you're back to taking your time.

Stick to a clock.

I am however in favour of a shot clock for resolving an activation.

2 hours ago, brettpkelly said:

Maybe in a store championship, but if you're at a national level event you should take the list that gives you the best chance to win

I mean, yes, but as the general consensus continues to shift into the realm of "hey, this is not only boring but is actively ruining the game," particularly when folks are already worried about IA's longevity... I don't know, man. Contributing to that problem seems counter-intuitive.

39 minutes ago, cleardave said:

You just needed an entertaining opponent. Like me. I even brought you coffee at last year's because it was so damned cold in that room.

The Junk Droid list I paired against was actually a lovely, albeit tense game with another ex-pat from the X-Wing top tiers.

The best thing anyone can do when they're on the winning side of a match is to, in general, just be cordial about it. I went through a mostly Mercs Worlds back in May, and I didn't begrudge a single person there for what they brought. I think if you're not playing the tiers, or building something to counter the tiers, then at some point you have to accept that placing tops in one of these things might not be easily doable.

So then the question becomes "is the current state that terrible with no hope of coming back, like when the Contracted Scout appeared in X-Wing?"

I'd say probably not. We're all just riding this thing out until Heart gets here.

Also, having ran the list now myself, I think the real swing with the Ug swarm is being able to pull off a 2-damage Terminal Protocol on your opponent on your second activation. That's a pretty devastating opening move. Spot Weld with a regular Ug and move that droid to within 12 squares of their deployment zone's center of mass, meaning the square that will hit the most targets, let them do one activation to respond, then activate the eUg, Overclock, move 4, then activate the Junk Droid to move 8 and detonate.

That's pretty lame. It's the one time in the game having initiative is beneficial. Your opponent can play Devious Scheme to get a better position for Round 2 but the joke's on them.

So you're stuck either stalling for time with your support units handing out focus, as one does, or activating more valuable figures and moving them out of the blast zone. All of this of course is just "if" your opponent gets Terminal Protocol in their opening hand. Dropping 2 damage on to a couple of units of eWeeqs suddenly turns them into one-hit kills when before they might have been able to tank 2 attacks for you before dying. That's huge. For someone with more HP like Vinto who rolls white, barring a Dodge result on your first defence roll, he could be gone in one attack as well.

It changes the entire value of all those units caught in the blast because essentially round 1 doesn't have too much shooting and is more about positioning for the rest of the game, and then it really hits the fan in round 2. Starting round 2 with a bunch of hobbled units really sucks.

I hope that perspective made some sense.

Well, playing against your would have made all the difference regardless of the current meta and game mechanic exploitation

1 minute ago, mellowthello said:

I mean, yes, but as the general consensus continues to shift into the realm of "hey, this is not only boring but is actively ruining the game," particularly when folks are already worried about IA's longevity... I don't know, man. Contributing to that problem seems counter-intuitive.

Some would argue that high-level competitive minded gaming is generally un-fun when all they wanted was to play Star Wars toys, but that's how it goes.

I think we're in a bad dip in the meta game while we wait for Heart to get off the boat already. Then everyone will complain about boring Vader matchups all day and we'll have something new to complain about.

When I think about longevity concerns, I also think that with all the barriers of entry this game has for strictly competitive minded gaming, I'd say we're a dedicated lot.

There is a perfectly functional "casual" mode to this game that lets you run wild with all kinds of stuff you and one or more friends can enjoy if you're not digging the flavour of the month meta build. You don't get that value from X-Wing or Destiny.

Can't we all just get along?

10 minutes ago, cleardave said:

Can't we all just get along?

Sure. Just don't bring Ugs to the table, particularly if you already acknowledge that they're harming a game you love ;).

3 hours ago, cleardave said:

Some would argue that high-level competitive minded gaming is generally un-fun when all they wanted was to play Star Wars toys, but that's how it goes.

So, they souldn't play, as you said:

3 hours ago, cleardave said:

There is a perfectly functional "casual" mode to this game that lets you run wild with all kinds of stuff you and one or more friends can enjoy if you're not digging the flavour of the month meta build. You don't get that value from X-Wing or Destiny.

And this is where skirmish gets awesome, X-wing doesn't have this feeling anymore once you enter a bit in new waves/competitive scene, IA still do a awesome job in the casual game, since I can feel that almost anything that I want to use in the skirmish I will have a fun time.

And IA won't die, you may say that the competitive could, but the game itself is larger than just the competitive skirmish. And I find easier to get in IA competitive than some other games (X-wing mainly).

9 hours ago, mellowthello said:

Sure. Just don't bring Ugs to the table, particularly if you already acknowledge that they're harming a game you love ;).

I haven't made the conclusion that the Ugs are hurting a game I love, just that the Terminal Protocol opening move is pretty cheap.

With that in mind, it's also not a foregone conclusion that you'll even have it in your opening hand, and even if you did, that you'd roll the 2 damage sides.

Maybe some wily statistician can do the math but it looks like you have about a 20% chance to open with Terminal Protocol, and then within that a 50% chance to actually roll the 2 damage sides on the green die. So is that basically a 10% chance that any given game you play will allow you to pull that off? If I'm looking at that correctly that's not the most consistent thing to rely upon. Sure it sucks when it goes off but it's pretty lucky to get that to line up just right once, never mind have it go off in every single game you play in a tournament.

I got 5 rounds in at Nationals and lucked into that scenario twice, so 40% success sounds like I caught a lucky break. One of the matches I opened with that move didn't even result in a win, so it wasn't like the whole thing was over before it started.

Ultimately I wouldn't think of opening with Terminal Protocol as a clutch play. It seems like a foregone conclusion that if its in your opening draw, the optimal move is to go right for it. That's not really expert decision making, and I certainly wasn't congratulating myself on doing it.

Anyways, someone can fact check my logic but I don't think Terminal Protocol is that reliable that its breaking the game, it's just really annoying when it happens and they roll the 2 damage. There doesn't seem to be much of a counter to it, and that feeling of helplessness sucks. Maybe that should be the discussion? How do we best deal with the potential for a second activation suicide droid? Have everyone jump in the bathtub like Riggs and Murtaugh?

I performed a second activation 3 damage Grenadier on Training Ground more than once, for a max of 27 damage, killing Officers and badly damaging eStormies alike. THAT was bad. And with Rule by Fear it was even a lot more likely to happen.

I have seen the Junk Droid collecting all Raining Freight on his own. That's bad. But that was just 2 Ugnaughts and no cards.

Wait for HotE. List building will change significantly. And play Jabba. Jabba's 1 point per dead Ugnaught is huge.

18 hours ago, Smashotron said:

Tell me about it! I saw it happen at Worlds and Nationals. Its hard to judge whether someone is thinking very long and hard, or they are running down the clock (and that's how they get away with it). I wish games would last a few more rounds, or maybe have a mandatory round count in addition to the timer.

Even if they are legitimately thinking about possible moves, they still need to keep up the pace of play. As a judge, I'll let the player know that he needs to keep up the pace of play- that taking sometime to consider moves is understandable, but there comes a time when you need to move forward. My next step would be to inform the players that I am extending the time for that table X minutes. Then if it continues, I would issue a warning to the player. Usually, it doesn't reach that point, but it's happened before (in CCGs). Finally, if all else fails, a game loss.

8 hours ago, DerBaer said:

I have seen the Junk Droid collecting all Raining Freight on his own. That's bad. But that was just 2 Ugnaughts and no cards.

Wait for HotE. List building will change significantly. And play Jabba. Jabba's 1 point per dead Ugnaught is huge.

This is more the real concern from my perspective. 1/6 of your matches will feel like it's free because of the insane advantage you have, regardless of deployment zone. What doesn't help is that Swamps is the newest map so will be around for quite some time yet.

Playing Jabba isn't quite as useful for players wanting a Rebel or Imperial Faction list though, but from a Mercs perspective it's definitely an option, and maybe more incentive to abandon the Rebel Care Package?