I'd like to speculate about a potential game mechanic.
The Ide is to have some kind of long range projectile weapon that can attack targets beyond range 3.
However it isn't a direct fire weapon that hits the target the moment it is fired. Instead it would work more like a bomb or mine which moves towards it's target. The fun thing would be that the target might evade the missile by maneuvering. If the Attacked ship flies well the missile might end up hitting an astroid or even another ship.

Now how could a game mechanic work that would allow for such a homing missile to move in a way that it is possible to outmaneuver it without making it too trivial?

Answering questions with questions?

How do you determine the movement of such a weapon? Does it have a dial? Does it have a fixed set of maneuvers on the upgrade card? What PS should it move at?

If it is an attack, are attack dice rolled when the weapon is fired, or when the weapon makes contact with the target?

If it is more like a bomb/mine, does it detonate on contact with friendly ships?

You could give a long range missile like that its own dial, different dials for different missile maneuverability. You'd probably want a round limit on how long the missile could maneuver before going ballistic so that someone doesn't have to outmaneuver it for an entire game. It could be an interesting redesign to have all ordnance work like that. Maybe torpedoes and missiles do more damage, but the warhead actually has to get within a certain range, or impact a target, otherwise it misses.

That's major redesign territory though. Could be fun for a scenario on a campaign though, long range cruise missiles threatening a rebel base or cruiser or something and need to be shot down.

Long range missiles would probably be 'Huge ship only' due to those ships being packed with a range ruler with ranges 4 and 5.

In standard 100/6 long range missiles would probably have a limitation similar to LRS, range 3 and beyond. Otherwise similar to other missile upgrades.

I've thought about similar concepts myself. Mine was basically a dial-bomb sized chit with nubs on both ends, that would launch as an action using any 2-speed template out the front, and then move at the end of activation using any 1-speed templateuntil it made base or template contact at which point it would explode and make an attack of some kind.

But there are some more interesting nuances around. E.g. when you launch it it does a 4 straight. The next round it does any 3-speed, then any 2-speed, then any 1-speed, then it's remove from the board at the end of activation round 5 after firing. Etc.

Mobile bomb-style tokens sound pretty interesting.

My initial thought would be that it works like a self propelled mine.

- You need a target lock (LRS or another ability to get Target lock beyond range 3 would be needed)

- It is fired as an attack (the missile gets the target lock and is placed similar to a mine in front of the attacker)

- it explodes when it's base or movement template crosses an obstacle or ship (frindley fire is possible)

- it may or may not have a limited number of turns it can maneuver until it either goes just straight until it leaves play or hits something, or it explodes.

- it probably needs a turn to arm (so you can't abuse it as a short range weapon)

- it probably has hullpoints and agility (so you could shoot it down)

The question is how is its movement determined? You can give it normal manoevers but there should be a mechanism that ensures that the player moves it towards it's target and not just steers it into the next enemy.

Moving ordnance, just say no. Assume that all weapons hit in the same round in which they are fired. Or use the escape pod or other 'double slotted' token as a test run to see if the concept is actually worth pursuing.

However, one way to simulate a long range missile tracking its target over multiple turns is placing a token on the target ship when the weapon is fired but not rolling damage until the next activation or combat phase. Maybe range 3 takes one round, beyond range three takes two rounds, and damage is automatic? Or large number of red dice, 5 or 6.

7 minutes ago, Hannes Solo said:

The question is how is its movement determined? You can give it normal manoevers but there should be a mechanism that ensures that the player moves it towards it's target and not just steers it into the next enemy.

A balanced solution is to give it a dial and pilot skill of 0 so the controlling player has to predict where the target is going. However that's not very thematically accurate for a munition that is tracking a target; it should be more reactive.

"After the target ship executes a maneuver, this missile executes a white 3-speed (straight, bank or turn) maneuver in the direction of the target ship, then the missile receives 1 stress token. When there are 3 stress token on this missile, remove it from play."

I an bot implying this is something FFG should should intoduce soon or at all. I am just spittballing here

Anyway I had the Idea that our little missile has an arc and that the target has to be in this arc at the end of the missiles movement. If that is not the case the missile would loose it's target and run in a straight line untill it hits something or leaves the play area.
That said movement could be like:
At the end of the activation phase. the missile can make two moves (straight, bank, hard turn) with a combined speed of X (for example 5 so the combined speed of both maneuvers has to be 5 not less).

Also it might have a limited number of maneuvers available (e.g. no speed 1 hard turns).

32 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

Moving ordnance, just say no. Assume that all weapons hit in the same round in which they are fired. Or use the escape pod or other 'double slotted' token as a test run to see if the concept is actually worth pursuing.

However, one way to simulate a long range missile tracking its target over multiple turns is placing a token on the target ship when the weapon is fired but not rolling damage until the next activation or combat phase. Maybe range 3 takes one round, beyond range three takes two rounds, and damage is automatic? Or large number of red dice, 5 or 6.

Wow, this was pretty much going to be my exact answer. R3 works as normal, R4 and R5 are resolved just prior to activation. My only difference is that I would keep damage moderate, 3-4 dice. Or, if 5-6 dice, allow +1/+2/+3 Defense for R3-5, respectively.

Overall, I like the idea. It breaks new ground, gives missile boats a neat perk, and requires Long-Range Sensors so that not every ship can do it.

32 minutes ago, Hannes Solo said:

I an bot implying this is something FFG should should intoduce soon or at all. I am just spittballing here

Anyway I had the Idea that our little missile has an arc and that the target has to be in this arc at the end of the missiles movement. If that is not the case the missile would loose it's target and run in a straight line untill it hits something or leaves the play area.
That said movement could be like:
At the end of the activation phase. the missile can make two moves (straight, bank, hard turn) with a combined speed of X (for example 5 so the combined speed of both maneuvers has to be 5 not less).

Also it might have a limited number of maneuvers available (e.g. no speed 1 hard turns).

I'd agree giving it a token and manouvre.

The game already includes 'drop' or 'deploy' mechanics, so you could 'deploy' instead of attacking. The question is (a) how fast do you want it to go, (b) how do you track the life, and.

Compare the shuttle/squadmate in the missions - move at PS0, selecting a maneuver rather than needing to set a dial (since you always go 'first' barring criticals or similar sillyness).

You don't need to be in arc - remember revenge of the sith? The smart missiles overshot and turned back around to engage again.

If it moves at PS0 and checks for detonating after it moves, then if you 'drop' it as an attack, then it definitely won't be able to make an attack until the start of the next turn (dropping it 1 in front of you, then it accelerates off next turn!)

I'd say range 1 in an arc on the token to trigger the 'attack'

The idea sounds very close to the tie bomb. The cards and dials are on this forum somewhere

1 hour ago, jmswood said:

Answering questions with questions?

How do you determine the movement of such a weapon? Does it have a dial? Does it have a fixed set of maneuvers on the upgrade card? What PS should it move at?

If it is an attack, are attack dice rolled when the weapon is fired, or when the weapon makes contact with the target?

If it is more like a bomb/mine, does it detonate on contact with friendly ships?

Simplest solution? Moves at PS12, no maneuver dial, but instead a fixed set of maneuvers which can be chosen when it is the missiles turn, dice rolled when the thing explodes, affects everything around range 1, explodes after 3 rounds or when reaching r1 to its original target.

Mechanics done. Now try them to see how fun they are. Go it easy first, Speed 4 straight & banks and 3 turns as options. Cluster missiles should become quite fun. If you can not get attack wing bank-4s, use bank 3s, which are imo a little bit too slow.

@SEApocalypse Simplest solution is not aways the balanced solution. Detonating at Range 1 is probably OP in this case. There's already too much AoE in the game. Giving PS12 to a missile is a gross abuse of pilot skill value.

30 minutes ago, jmswood said:

@SEApocalypse Simplest solution is not aways the balanced solution. Detonating at Range 1 is probably OP in this case. There's already too much AoE in the game. Giving PS12 to a missile is a gross abuse of pilot skill value.

With the limited maneuvers the missile has, it is rather easy to avoid points it can reach before it moves. Minimum-range should be as well make sure that it not just hit you in the face, so basically beyond Range 3 only. PS12 makes sure that it moves last against small and large ships, while hit huge ships before those move. What such missiles would do is hit huge ships reliable and force enemy formations to shatter. Sounds very thematic.

Besides, AOE damage itself is not a problem the game has. Unavoidable damage is. ;-)

I'm generally opposed to the idea of introducing any more missiles (except, maybe, for one with the sentence " TIE Punisher only" printed). That said, if I were to introduce such a thing, I'd probably give it a very fast and simple dial with no hard turns (example: 2 bank, 3 forward, 3 bank, 4 forward), an obligatory SLAM, and a fuel limit.

Way back before guidance chips and extra munitions I thought a mod to let a torp that missed have a second crack at the target the next turn would have beem a good fix. Something like that could also work as a long range weapon idea without needing the complexity of dials and such.

Smart Guidance

Modification, Small Ship only (stupid Jumps) 1pt

After you perform an attack with a Missile or Torpedo secondary weapon that does not hit, assign the defender 1 stress token and 1 tracker token.

Rules for Tracker token:

At the end of the Activation phase, if a ship has a Tracker token, it must defend against an attack from the same missile or torpedo that it defended against the previous round. At the beginning of the Combat phase, discard all Tracking tokens.

Its a trade off with guidance chips and munitions failsafe but giving the stress on a miss makes it an interesting choice.

1 hour ago, SEApocalypse said:

Besides, AOE damage itself is not a problem the game has. Unavoidable damage is. ;-)

Most of the unavoidable damage sources in the game are AoE.

In a theoretical Xwing Mk2, there should be range 4-5 weapons in the base game.

Missiles in general should have a very long range. That would actually make ordinance carriers dangerous because with Long Range scanners they could shoot you before you could shoot them.

I created this as part of a full hypothetical X-wing/E-wing "fix-pansion" a couple of years ago.

Acklay Seeker Reference Card

· The Acklay Seeker is a slow-moving, AI-driven explosive ordnance carrier. It is represented by the Acklay Seeker token.

· Launch an Acklay Seeker (usually in the Combat phase) by using the 1-straight or 1-bank template. Place the template in the launching ship’s rear guides, and then place the token’s front guides on the other end of the template. Place the ID token of the controlling ship on the token.

· As the last movement of the Activation phase (and then in initiative order if more than one Acklay Seeker is in play), the Acklay Seeker must perform a move using the 1-straight or 1-bank templates. Alternately, it may perform a 3-Koiogran maneuver.

· The launcher of the Acklay Seeker controls its movement, but it must move.

· No ship may have two Acklay Seekers in play simultaneously. If a second is launched, the first is immediately discarded.

· An Acklay Seeker cannot be attacked or damaged.

· If the Acklay Seeker’s template or token overlaps any ship, obstacle, or other token at any time, or if its token is not fully within the play area after it executes a maneuver, it is destroyed and discarded. If the Acklay Seeker’s template or token overlapped a ship, that ship suffers 3 damage.

Acklay Seeker, Torpedo, 2 points. ATTACK: Focus. Discard this card and a focus token to launch an Acklay Seeker.

2 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

In a theoretical Xwing Mk2, there should be range 4-5 weapons in the base game.

Missiles in general should have a very long range. That would actually make ordinance carriers dangerous because with Long Range scanners they could shoot you before you could shoot them.

I think this is not a bad idea, but ordnance launches at range 4-5 should not work if obstructed. They'd be too dangerous, and impossible to counter-play.

6 hours ago, Hannes Solo said:

I'd like to speculate about a potential game mechanic.
The Ide is to have some kind of long range projectile weapon that can attack targets beyond range 3.
However it isn't a direct fire weapon that hits the target the moment it is fired. Instead it would work more like a bomb or mine which moves towards it's target. The fun thing would be that the target might evade the missile by maneuvering. If the Attacked ship flies well the missile might end up hitting an astroid or even another ship.

Now how could a game mechanic work that would allow for such a homing missile to move in a way that it is possible to outmaneuver it without making it too trivial?

you just cant. the game system is already breaking under too many weird upgrades.

in order for the missile to "track" an opponent it would need a pilot skill and someone to select its maneuver template. it wouldnt mesh well. at the end of the day video games are better at complex simultaneous actions. the game should be like chess, not battlefront

To "keep things simple" I'd have you lay out the range ruler and place a "missile tracking token" at the end of it to represent this round or flight time. At the start of the next combat phase I'd allow you to lay down the range ruler between the target and the token and move token to the end of the ruler; if the ruler or token contact the target you then resolve the attack.

Too simple? Ok then maybe the "missile tracking token" should be marked such that continuing relatively straight for the second round allows the full length of the range ruler to be used. If the missile needs to turn left or right then the range would only stretch out to R2. If the missile needs to turn around and head back the other way then it only gets to use R1 to determine if it reaches its actual target.

Of course if that last measure goes through an obstacle then the attack is obstructed as normal. It could even be such that each "step" that is obstructed carries an extra defence die forward such that if you lead the missile on a chase through an asteroid field the target make gain enough bonus defense dice the attack is unlikely to hit.

If we are going to add more missiles and torps, then we will need to add ways to avoid, chaff, evasive maneuvers, things like that, also with the number of bombs exploding on the scene we may need to give pilots some sort of opportunity to avoid or destroy them also. After all with all the bombs that Jango used on Obi-wan, he was able to avoid them and even he said he was not a great pilot.

17 minutes ago, librarian101 said:

If we are going to add more missiles and torps, then we will need to add ways to avoid, chaff, evasive maneuvers, things like that, also with the number of bombs exploding on the scene we may need to give pilots some sort of opportunity to avoid or destroy them also. After all with all the bombs that Jango used on Obi-wan, he was able to avoid them and even he said he was not a great pilot.

What if you roll an attack die for each point of agility after executing a maneuver. On a crit result, you can either discard the Missile Tracking token or assign it to another ship at range 1. The latter part would represent the classic, "I've tricked your missile into following the wrong target" maneuver.