I admit that my "obsession" with one particular cult is based on the assumption that the next oldest member becomes the leader if the previous dies. And based on that assumption only one cult may be close to victory, Red Keys. And for the record I never said Caldias is a cult leader. my guess is that the red Key leader is JJ (if the leadership is hereditary) and Cal is a likely compatriot.

For the record, I do suspect that Pod is the Hutt leader, exactly because the reasons listed above. He plays differently. And Toad made a good effort to distance himself from Pod when he was about to get lynched and it was likely that his lie would be revealed. But that is not the point!

If the Hutt clan were so close to victory that we are in a lylo situation today because of them, then why did Toad reveal the whole clan (the one we didn't even suspect about back then)? All they would have to do was to be silent. And if they are in lylo today, that necessarily means they had to be in lylo the previous day as well because then they had Toad then! So why did they reveal themselves? What were they gaining with it? Especially when they KNEW there is a Vigilante around who could add a night kill to their losses? @Caldias, @Onidsen please give me a logical argument why a clan that is about to win the game and has day chat because of an encryptor would make such a stupid thing in a situation they weren't even pressed to do anything?

TLDR of what I was talking about in the last 24 hours:

The Black Sun clan was decimated, they can't win the game this night. The Hutt Clan made a move that would make absolutely no sense if they were close to victory. That leaves only one single clan that may have a chance to win the game tonight: Red Key. That's why I'm focused on them.

By the way, Caldias is right, there could to be a safer bet than he for being a Red Key: JJ.

5 hours ago, Caldias said:

I'd like to preface this by saying this is based off the interpretation that the cult leader does not get passed down, which could be wrong, but I feel like Toad was probably lying about that.

This COULD be lylo, but it could not. Duh. But is it not better to plan for the worst? Let's presume that it is, meaning that the Hutt clan was more successful in recruiting than The Toad let on, or the Red Key recruited well. Red Key cult leader is dead, though, so I'm not sure what Norell's obsession is with that faction. Again, because 1) if Toad was even close to winning, why would he reveal? 2) if leadership passes on, then Reds, being in the lead before, will be so now, and may be 1 from winning

Okay, so to me, it seems like GNiPs and Pod are probably both cult, possibly in the same one. Pod's logic is bonkers. He's taking the most outlying edge-case possiblities and heralding them as truth, and GNiPs is golf clapping behind him as if he's preaching truth. I am not. They just happen to go along with my own suspicions, so I am more inclined to trust them. Pod logic is difficult to follow, sure, but his actions are explainable. "Counter claimers are always honest" is the weirdest thing to say, IMO. We've had this conversation. I did not say 'always' I said usually. It's also not my opinion. Gink was the one who introduced the concept to me, and other more experience players backed him up. Onidsen (if he isn't on your side) will agree that it is a common thought/approach to the game. And if it is commonly accepted, it can't often be wrong.

For instance, Pod is saying he fished for a blaster, got it even though he has a chance of failure, got it, and shot Mads. Why is 'For instance' here? It doesn't follow after the previous point. Okay, there are some big ifs in there. Naturally Norell may or may not be in a cult as well, and I do find it interesting he isn't interested in killing cultists, but one type of cultist in particular. We've said this before: We're hunting the most populated, else its LYLO! JJ could as well be cult and trying to distance himself from the other cultists. CNinja feels town, and I'd say Onidsen does too, but both are good players that can be deceptive. This is irrelevant. We are not hunting random cultists, but Red cultists, of which you are nearly certainly one.

The thing that makes the least sense is Pod claiming I shot him. Well guess what? If I HAD shot him, I would've just said "I shot Pod, but he somehow survived." Unverifiable, we only have your word for it. As such, it doesn't really mean much. I made my intentions to shoot Pod very clear, and the only reason I changed my mind was because Toad flipped not the cult leader, which made me think he might've been throwing shade at a possible townie. If you made your intent clear, and he was shot, small wonder why he accused you, no? So I went to my next highest target, Mad. Pod's story is super convoluted, It isn't actually - he fished a gun, shot Mad, was told he was shot. Who had a gun and said he would shoot Pod? You. and requires known roles to operate in a different manner than they are described in the wiki for this third faction to be bogus. If you mean the alignment-switcher thingamajig, then I agree that that is odd, but it isn't his story, it is his suspicion. The simplest explanation is Pod is BSing. Everything you are writing now gives me the same impression about you though - you misrepresent arguments, your own are superficial, you brush over steps of logic which you yourself saw accepted in other games, and misdirect by pretending to say something, but actually saying nothing.

One thing that has been undisputed, whether I am cult or not, is that I am a Vigilante. Were Therefore, I am NOT a cult leader, Big IF here, assuming that the leadership does not pass down. If it did, with Mad's death you could very well have inherited it, as previous role is irrelevant (see encryptors get it first). and there is still one out there, at large. By your statements. By mine and Norell's, there are 3 If the leadership doesn't pass, we NEED to kill the last cult leader. If Toad was telling the truth and it does pass, well ****, I don't know anymore. That bit were your knowledge fails is your lynch, or another Red's, as if they pass, a Red is the only cultist we MUST lynch else Game Over.

I will probably get lynched, but fair enough. I've done all I could to help. After I flip Vig I hope the convuluted stories and who concocted them get looked at hard. If you flip Vigilante, if you also flip Town, then I shall fully support investigating those of us who pushed for your lynch.

This is all based on the premise that cult leadership does not transfer. As I said, I am basing my suspicions on the fact that it does, as that is worst case scenario for town. With that in mind, my comments are in bold above.

2 minutes ago, Norell said:

By the way, Caldias is right, there could to be a safer bet than he for being a Red Key: JJ.

Maybe, but JJ hasn't killed any Suns, or been focused down on by Hutts. So while its probable, the proof of Cal is more certain, I think. I open to lynching either, however.

Let me add to my posts above that Red Key should be closes to victory REGARDLESS of whether the leader title is hereditary or not. All it would change is that the Hutts would pose a bigger threat but still not big enough to be lylo today.

@Norell

I'm not worried about Hutts. I'm not worried about Black Sun. I'm worried about Red Keys, but I'm not convinced that Caldias is one.

He killed a Black Sun - he's almost certainly not one of them. A Hutt tried to get him killed. Could have been a ploy to get him trusted. But he's a verified Vigilante and therefore not the cult leader. Which means he's not the obvious choice for a distancing ploy like that.

My big question is this: Is Caldias town? If he is a cult, he's most likely a Red Key. But if not, then if we are at LyLo, then we actually have to be careful enough to get this right.

And the whole issue with Pod is making me waver back and forth between those two options.

Let's assume that Caldias is not Red Key. Can we agree that J is likely one then? He was working together nicely with ImpCaptain from the beginning of the game, he pushed very hard to lynch Toad and is pushing hard against for Pod. And by chance, he's always saying what Caldias says, by the way.

By the way, why would have Toad try to bring Pod into his little scam? Why him? Why not you, me, Dras, or CNinja for example? Again, if Pod isn't Hutt, this would have been a no-win scenario because Toad (ad through him the clan) wouldn't win anything with it. But if Pod IS a Hutt then if we would believed Toad he would be safe too, and we wouldn't believe him he could be distance himself from another Hutt by said Hutt openly stepping up against Toad. Again, I think Toad is the Hutt clan leader, therefor I think he is not our target today.

By the way @Visovics how much time left?

1 hour ago, Norell said:

By the way @Visovics how much time left?

Slightly less than 8 hours

Ok, I'll be unavailable for a while but I'll be back about 1 hour before the deadline.

And I'll review everything then.

I'm off to work in 2 hours and won't be back till after hammer.

Do I stand accused of anything new? Iv given up my who what where when's and how's, My evidence, my reads coherently. You've all watched me work, my approach is consistent and unaligned to any cult, I'm not, never was or will be associated with Toad, his gambit was his own. Or worse conducted with the intention of destabilising town today,

the reasons for my vote remain, I don't trust caldias I think he tried to kill me. Obviously there's a lot of wiggle room in a fisherman game, with dual dual shot vigilantes, how I'm typing this il never know. I guess Dras cal and toad are all wondering how 4 lynches and four bullets wasn't enough ??

Asfar as Nippy and Novell are concerned, they've got there own reasons for voting cal based of cults and mathematics, a far stretch from how I arrived at the conclusion, but that's what I love about mafia, how different people apply their skill sets to problem solving.

Of the guys voting for me Dras and jj reasons are weak to non existent, I'm not sure I even need respond to them scummy types here. Cals is justifiable, if we get to observers and really both shot mad then lol, but I 100% call You aimed at me, thinking you would never be held accountable today, and it would be justifiable to have killed me anyway in terms of gameplay. Your big muckspreader of a post smells toady.

Il let you vote in peace ,

So after looking at both Pod's and Cal's arguments, I'm still worried that we are ignoring the real threats. However, If one of them is a threat:

9 hours ago, Caldias said:

I'd like to preface this by saying this is based off the interpretation that the cult leader does not get passed down, which could be wrong, but I feel like Toad was probably lying about that.

This COULD be lylo, but it could not. Let's presume that it is, meaning that the Hutt clan was more successful in recruiting than The Toad let on, or the Red Key recruited well. Red Key cult leader is dead, though, so I'm not sure what Norell's obsession is with that faction.

Okay, so to me, it seems like GNiPs and Pod are probably both cult, possibly in the same one. Pod's logic is bonkers. He's taking the most outlying edge-case possiblities and heralding them as truth, and GNiPs is golf clapping behind him as if he's preaching truth. "Counter claimers are always honest" is the weirdest thing to say, IMO. For instance, Pod is saying he fished for a blaster, got it even though he has a chance of failure, got it, and shot Mads. Okay, there are some big ifs in there. Norell may or may not be in a cult as well, and I do find it interesting he isn't interested in killing cultists, but one type of cultist in particular. JJ could as well be cult and trying to distance himself from the other cultists. CNinja feels town, and I'd say Onidsen does too, but both are good players that can be deceptive.

The thing that makes the least sense is Pod claiming I shot him. Well guess what? If I HAD shot him, I would've just said "I shot Pod, but he somehow survived." I made my intentions to shoot Pod very clear, and the only reason I changed my mind was because Toad flipped not the cult leader, which made me think he might've been throwing shade at a possible townie. So I went to my next highest target, Mad. Pod's story is super convoluted, and requires known roles to operate in a different manner than they are described in the wiki for this third faction to be bogus. The simplest explanation is Pod is BSing.

One thing that has been undisputed, whether I am cult or not, is that I am a Vigilante. Therefore, I am NOT a cult leader, and there is still one out there, at large. If the leadership doesn't pass, we NEED to kill the last cult leader. If Toad was telling the truth and it does pass, well ****, I don't know anymore.

I will probably get lynched, but fair enough. I've done all I could to help. After I flip Vig I hope the convuluted stories and who concocted them get looked at hard.

1 hour ago, PodRacer said:

I'm off to work in 2 hours and won't be back till after hammer.

Do I stand accused of anything new? Iv given up my who what where when's and how's, My evidence, my reads coherently. You've all watched me work, my approach is consistent and unaligned to any cult, I'm not, never was or will be associated with Toad, his gambit was his own. Or worse conducted with the intention of destabilising town today,

the reasons for my vote remain, I don't trust caldias I think he tried to kill me. Obviously there's a lot of wiggle room in a fisherman game, with dual dual shot vigilantes, how I'm typing this il never know. I guess Dras cal and toad are all wondering how 4 lynches and four bullets wasn't enough ??

Asfar as Nippy and Novell are concerned, they've got there own reasons for voting cal based of cults and mathematics, a far stretch from how I arrived at the conclusion, but that's what I love about mafia, how different people apply their skill sets to problem solving.

Of the guys voting for me Dras and jj reasons are weak to non existent, I'm not sure I even need respond to them scummy types here. Cals is justifiable, if we get to observers and really both shot mad then lol, but I 100% call You aimed at me, thinking you would never be held accountable today, and it would be justifiable to have killed me anyway in terms of gameplay. Your big muckspreader of a post smells toady.

Il let you vote in peace ,

I'd bet its Pod right now. I'm not sure, but Cal's logic seems pretty sound here and follows my own reads. Pod's is almost as good (except for his previous premise about shifting flips) but then I absolutely do not see the muck-spreading in Cal's post.

I really think we should lynch Norell or GNips who are trying SO hard, or JJ and Dras who are trying SO little. Something smells there more it seems.

It not perfect Ninja, I actually agree with some of Cals reads too, it just gets discarded in my books because he then pushes me being in cahoots with toad, or alligned to a cult, which i know to be untruths.

Do you bet it was me in the same way you bet it was Broba? Cos theres alot of parralels with your doubting of me, being pushed the same way you pushed on him with your 'thinking aloud' style in this one. Its interesting you wont come out and vote before Oni. Maybe you think hes cult too, now reversed the play so it is he who gets final say.. or to push the no lynch

If im still here next day i intend to find out why =)

laters.

2 hours ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

So after looking at both Pod's and Cal's arguments, I'm still worried that we are ignoring the real threats. However, If one of them is a threat:

I'd bet its Pod right now. I'm not sure, but Cal's logic seems pretty sound here and follows my own reads. Pod's is almost as good (except for his previous premise about shifting flips) but then I absolutely do not see the muck-spreading in Cal's post.

I really think we should lynch Norell or GNips who are trying SO hard, or JJ and Dras who are trying SO little. Something smells there more it seems.

I have little doubt that Pod is a threat, though he could indeed be town. Cal however I am convinced is not only Cult, but Red Key, and thus the greater if not the greatest threat to town.

I would refer you to my post above where I broke down Cal's post and pointed out everywhere where he misrepresented arguments, cast unsolicited shade, and in general seemed like he was saying things without actually stating anything of worth or truth. if you cannot see that, then I fear you may be on his side. It is rather blatantly obvious to me, at least.

5 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

I have little doubt that Pod is a threat, though he could indeed be town. Cal however I am convinced is not only Cult, but Red Key, and thus the greater if not the greatest threat to town.

I would refer you to my post above where I broke down Cal's post and pointed out everywhere where he misrepresented arguments, cast unsolicited shade, and in general seemed like he was saying things without actually stating anything of worth or truth. if you cannot see that, then I fear you may be on his side. It is rather blatantly obvious to me, at least.

Your conviction gives me great pause.

How are you so convinced GNiPs? I do not see how it is as Black and White as you portray it. You aren't going after Pod with the same sort of scrutiny.

You're also convinced about Red Key. Red Key, Hutt, Black Sun, they're all cult. And I don't understand why you put so much stock into Toad's words when he was lying. Could the gambit of coming out not have been to get the town to kill the last vig? I don't buy the whole "Hutts were struggling" argument. That all died when Toad flipped.

Then you say if I cannot see his shade, I MUST be on his side. Who's casting shade there huh?

It is so weird, because the easiest explanation in my mind is that they BOTH shot Mads, and you and Norell are trying SO hard, with such long posts to throw Caldias under the bus. Then he comes along and wipes it all out with one post. Pod, comes back and does the same, great posting that makes sense. (That's why I'm inclined to believe their @$$es and not your's or Norell's)

27 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

Your conviction gives me great pause.

How are you so convinced GNiPs? I do not see how it is as Black and White as you portray it. You aren't going after Pod with the same sort of scrutiny.

You're also convinced about Red Key. Red Key, Hutt, Black Sun, they're all cult. And I don't understand why you put so much stock into Toad's words when he was lying. Could the gambit of coming out not have been to get the town to kill the last vig? I don't buy the whole "Hutts were struggling" argument. That all died when Toad flipped.

Then you say if I cannot see his shade, I MUST be on his side. Who's casting shade there huh?

It is so weird, because the easiest explanation in my mind is that they BOTH shot Mads, and you and Norell are trying SO hard, with such long posts to throw Caldias under the bus. Then he comes along and wipes it all out with one post. Pod, comes back and does the same, great posting that makes sense. (That's why I'm inclined to believe their @$$es and not your's or Norell's)

My conviction stems from a gut feeling on Cal's behavior, and a strong dislike of his method of arguing, which, as I said above, is to misquote, misrepresent, and misconstrue the posts of his attackers and attack his version of their arguments with arguments that are equally unsupported. If I thought Pod was a Red Key, I would go after him. For yes, they are all cults, but not all of them are close to wining. Sun has been decimated, and if the Hutts were close to winning, and nobody was even aware that they existed, what do you think would be the logical course of action? Declare you exist and hope nobody lynches you, being 'weak', or keeping quiet, lyching somebody else, and recruiting the player that brings you to vi? A winning team announcing its existence and declaring itself weak enough to eliminate in a vote and a nightkill seems like such an illogical, stupid, and futile action that I cannot believe it would be true. Hence I assume the Hutts are behind the Red Keys.

As such, I am hunting Red Keys. I went over all the points you bring up before, in another reply to you, but as you don't seem to have yet grasped it/perhaps you misunderstood me, I'll paraphrase:

I know Cal isn't Sun, because he shot one of them, maybe 2. I think he isn't Hutt, 'cause Toad attacked him. I have a gut feeling, supported by his posting quality that he isn't town. Therefore the only faction left for him is Red. The vote is currently between he and Pod. Therefore Pod cannot be of the same faction as Cal, as that would be stupid. Therefore Pod is Hutt/Town/Sun. As such, all three of Pod's possible alignments are further from winning than Cal's. Therefore Cal is the greater threat, and I am voting him.

Why are you suspicious of my and Norell's insistence? We believe Cal is a threat to town. Why shouldn't we was him dead, when WE MIGHT BE AT LYLO? Not being so insistent that the most immediate threat to town is lynched before he wins seems to me to be more suspicious than a fervent desire to kill the perceived greatest threat to town victory. You continually post mentioning that you are unsure between Pod and Cal, say you can't see what we see in Cal whilst you imitate him by misquoting Norell's and my arguments, and always end your posts with 'btw, GNIP and Norell are rather adamant, they could be scum'. This shows that either you do not want to see Cal's flaws, in which case you are Red Key too, or really do not see them, which I find hard to believe as this is the third time I am pointing them out to you, and YOU YOURSELF ARE DOING THE SAME THING! Furthermore, your constant mention of Norell and myself only serves to distract the voters from the main issue, which is Pod or Cal.

Thus, all your actions serve to throw shade on anyone not voting Pod, whilst imitating Cal's method of arguing and claiming not to understand our constantly clarified points. That is why I fear you may be on his side. FEAR YOU MAY, not that you MUST (an example of your imitating Cal in misrepresenting what I said).

Oh for cryig out loud...! Time to take matters into my own hands I guess.

So CNinja is likely the Red Key backup. As Dras is unlikely to change his vote we are either at a no lynch or a Pod lynch scenario depending on what Caldias decides. Neither is good for the town. So I rather risk making a mistake and give the game to another team than stand idle and do nothing.

I'm a New Republic special agent, a town-aligned 2-shot arsonist. Coolest role ever! My first shot was Ginkapo. Here is the second. Now I'm just a reguar townie.

## trigger

@Visovics

Nobody posts!

Alright no more posting people,end of day!

In the light of indecision, the room is illuminated as two people burst into flames, the tattoos exposed by the burning clothes. The man responsible this time leans back in his chair.

@JJs Juggernaut has died, he was a CULT-aligned Encryptor working for the Red Key

@Caldias has died, he was a CULT- aligned Vigilante working for the Red Key

It is now night, it will last 24 hours or until all actions are in

1-@Drasnighta(0) - PodRacer

Wasnt me.

Got im!

Just now, CaribbeanNinja said:

Got im!

hahaha XD

all i could hear all day yesterday was a little voice saying 'scum always hide behind your posts pod' XD

All this can only mean one thing...

##vote onidsen

sorry bro the numbers caught up with you, i had no friggin clue

I was the kill on Dras. Sorry about that @Drasnighta, when caldias died, i figured that the last vote to save cal was suspect too. I'm still town, though.

I assume at least 1 red key left, and one black sun. Perhaps another Hutt too.