I personally am not a fan of how the force die and conflict work in this game. I am still working on these ideas and as I am probably not as experienced in the games as others here I thought I would run my house rule ideas by you.

Dark Side Pips: Players have three choices when they role these they can: 1) Not use them, 2) Suffer two strain per dark pip they would like to use, or 3) accept the conflict and use them. I would not roll to determine conflict at end of session or adventures. If they earn conflict they reduce their morality by equal amount.

Light Side Pips: If a player is playing a dark side character they could use light side pips only by suffering two strain per pip.

Emotional Strength and Weaknesses: Will still be used and may cause double the morality increase or decrease.

Morality: Your score will primarily go up or down based on your actions. I will make the players make tough choices that will result in increase or decrease in morality.

Accepting strain to use dark side pips is way too easy, as strain can be reduced really fast. Narratively it's hard to justify the choice btw strain and conflict. I think the only good point on the system actually is the use constraint of the dark side pips. The real problem, if there is one, is just the morality change at the end of the session, rolling a dice is way too hazardous. I admit that with this system, two peoples doing the same actions that would result at the end of the game session by the same amount of conflict point, shouldn't have their morality raising or falling by a random roll... but I can't think of any change to the system by myself

Potentially makes using the Darkside for Force Powers outside of combat a very inconsequential thing.

"Oh, I'll absolutely use those black pips on my Influence Power here, to get by these guards. That's only 4 Strain, which I can likely recover most of if we just take a minute and I roll my Simple Cool.

Sorry I should have noted, use of dark side powers or powers that require dark side pips still generate conflict.

still i see your point

I think the rules as given on conflict generation is fine. The true cost for drawing on Darkside pips is one strain a turn and it takes a lot of darkside pips being spent to add up to anything of consequence. But it needs to be present all the time; drawing on the force in an emotionally charged manner is dangerous and the dark side is always looking for opportunity. If you start giving them the choice of "do you want the conflict or the strain" you lose a lot of the objectivity, the grounding influence of the force. Being able to spend pips of both sides is what makes spending darkside pips so appealing to force users with a lower rating, so being able to draw on strain and completely shaft the darkside pips is something 90% of "paragons" would want to do. Unfortunately I feel a lot of players would game your house rule and as a consquence reduce the impact the darkside has.

Your players don't spend darkside pips? Give them a lot of situations where only sense/seek/influence can provide, or at the very least being able to do something NOW would cut out so much of the paperwork. By presenting so much pressure on some of their force pips will sometimes force them to tap into the conflict or alternatively take the longer path.

It doesn't mean there's any potential for the machanic; there might be some force artifacts that allows you to do exactly that to 1 or more force pips per check. One sith saber I once had removed the strain cost associated to the darkside, which made drawing on it much, much more appealing.

Part of the problem that I ran into as gm was awarding conflict in multi-pc scenes in a way that made sense in the end. What tended to happen was one pc might lead the scene, and I wasn't shy about handing out conflict. So the pc who did all the talking would generate a fair amount of conflict, but pcs who went along relatively quietly would generate very little conflict. And generating small amounts of conflict would lead to big jumps in morality.

So we're playtesting our own move away from the d10 system (I'm a pc now), and are turning to the game dice for help. The default difficulty for a morality check at the end of the session is easy (1 purple). If you would do something that would generate conflict, you could add more purple. If you would make a choice that would not generate conflict, you could add green. For example, if you use dark side pips to activate Misdirect to avoid a fight, you might add green and purple to your end of session morality check. If the acrion that gave you a green die played in to your emotional strength, you might upgrade to yellow. And playing into a weakness might upgrade to red. Uncanceled successes increase morality, uncanceled failures decrease morality. Advantages and threats add blues and blacks to the next sessions morality check (because who ever deals with all this stuff in a day?). I don't think we've settled triumph and despair.

Anyway, we're hoping this will be a little less swingy - and give us a way to acknowledge those acts that don't generate conflict, but that are important to the character, in a useful way. I'm guessing we're much less likely to hit paragon or dark side, but that may be for the best.

One problem about using dark side pips only with strain is that after PC takes Healing, with the control that allows strain recovery, they can use dark side pips without much thought.

Yeah,

On 9/3/2017 at 0:08 PM, downlobot said:

.

So we're playtesting our own move away from the d10 system (I'm a pc now), and are turning to the game dice for help. The default difficulty for a morality check at the end of the session is easy (1 purple). If you would do something that would generate conflict, you could add more purple. If you would make a choice that would not generate conflict, you could add green. For example, if you use dark side pips to activate Misdirect to avoid a fight, you might add green and purple to your end of session morality check. If the acrion that gave you a green die played in to your emotional strength, you might upgrade to yellow. And playing into a weakness might upgrade to red. Uncanceled successes increase morality, uncanceled failures decrease morality. Advantages and threats add blues and blacks to the next sessions morality check (because who ever deals with all this stuff in a day?). I don't think we've settled triumph and despair.

How do you determine what dice you roll?

What do the results mean?

On 2017-09-02 at 5:06 PM, JinFaram said:

I personally am not a fan of how the force die and conflict work in this game.

I skip Conflict entirely. Instead of Morality as a 0-100 scale, I treat it like critical hits, eg: do something terrible, and you'll have an ethical hit that requires a story-based resolution and a Hard or higher "heal" roll.

I still keep the Strain cost and DP flip, to me that's plenty of penalty for not being in perfect control. I don't think of the dark pips as "using the dark side", it's more that the user doesn't have complete control over which side of the Force they are using, but they regain it if they spend Strain and the DP.

This does mean one could spend dark pips without spending Strain and DP, but that would cause a direct ethical hit in the 1-3 difficulty range (depending on what it is used for).

Ethical hits have varying degrees of impact, such as setbacks or upgrades on social rolls like Charm. There is no benefit to being a paragon. I expect most Jedi to have a small hit or two.

On 2017-09-02 at 5:06 PM, JinFaram said:

Your score will primarily go up or down based on your actions. I will make the players make tough choices that will result in increase or decrease in morality.

Basically what I do, but ditching the scale. Morality should be based on actions, not the whim of the dice.

@whafrog If I continue with FFG Star Wars that is what I will likely do.

On 6/9/2017 at 7:47 PM, whafrog said:

I skip Conflict entirely. Instead of Morality as a 0-100 scale, I treat it like critical hits, eg: do something terrible, and you'll have an ethical hit that requires a story-based resolution and a Hard or higher "heal" roll.

I still keep the Strain cost and DP flip, to me that's plenty of penalty for not being in perfect control. I don't think of the dark pips as "using the dark side", it's more that the user doesn't have complete control over which side of the Force they are using, but they regain it if they spend Strain and the DP.

This does mean one could spend dark pips without spending Strain and DP, but that would cause a direct ethical hit in the 1-3 difficulty range (depending on what it is used for).

Ethical hits have varying degrees of impact, such as setbacks or upgrades on social rolls like Charm. There is no benefit to being a paragon. I expect most Jedi to have a small hit or two.

This remembers me the morality system of New World of Darkness, that used Derangements, or the updated version called Chronicles of Darkness, that uses Conditions.

Can you post some examples of those ethical critical hits?

Respect using Dark Pips, I consider using them as really using the Dark Side, althought the character is not aware of it for whatever reason. Perhaps he is angry, fearfull, he tries to "force" the force instead of flow with it, he cannot differentiate dark from light energy enough.... It can be narrated in a variety of ways.

I tell this as my point of view, I'm not telling that yours is wrong. I simply want to expose mine

I will put a pair of examples to explain myself:

In episode 7 of Star Wars Rebels 1st season, Ezra Bridger uses the Dark Side to control a Fyrnock queen. He is so full of anger that he didn't realices that he is using the Dark Side (that would be the Dark Pips). After, when he is in peace, he tells Kanan about the cold and terrible that that energy felt, being able to differentiate the energies.

Later, in the first episode of season 3, Ezra uses knowingly the dark side to save his companions, to do some good. Apart from the action he commits, the use of the Dark Side sllowly makes him more susceptible, agressive and bold. Ezra justifies himself in anger, he feels misunderstood of the good he can do, not seeing that he is growing arrogant and quick to anger due to the use of the dark side. Luckily for him, Kanan is there to stop him.

I think about the force, the light side and dark side, as a vibration. Every time you call the force, you send a radio wave. If you send the "signal" in a low frequency (fear, anger, arrogance...), who answers is the Dark Side because is the frequency that is in tune with that signal you are in. Also, using the dark side lowers your frequency more, frequency that you have to reatune if you don't want to fall.

So, ok, going to Morality 30 throught the abuse of dark side powers is not the same as arriving there by sacrificing puppies to the devil, but in the end you will vibrate in the same frequency as them, and you will begin to think that what they do is cool.

This debate has has come up several times (look for Morality threads), so I'm not going to repeat it all. The main problem for me with the current mechanic is that your PCs mental state is constantly changing. If you have FR3 and roll all dark pips, does it mean your PC is furious? If next turn you roll all light pips, does it mean your PC is serene? If so, then every Force Sensitive PC in this game is a total nut job, with wild mood swings from one minute to the next, regardless of the story. That's the epidomy of "roll-playing", not roleplaying.

it makes far more sense to me that the FR represents skill, and sometimes you need to work a little more to get it right, hence the Strain and DP cost. Then the player retains control over the PC, and all your examples can be better explained by the character willing to spend dark pips without spending Strain or a DP and taking the ethical hit. Perhaps Ezra didn't have enough Strain and no DPs, and the situation was desperate, so the "player behind Ezra" made that choice, and then continues with it because they want to play Ezra through a dark side arc.

3 hours ago, whafrog said:

This debate has has come up several times (look for Morality threads), so I'm not going to repeat it all. The main problem for me with the current mechanic is that your PCs mental state is constantly changing. If you have FR3 and roll all dark pips, does it mean your PC is furious? If next turn you roll all light pips, does it mean your PC is serene? If so, then every Force Sensitive PC in this game is a total nut job, with wild mood swings from one minute to the next, regardless of the story. That's the epidomy of "roll-playing", not roleplaying.

it makes far more sense to me that the FR represents skill, and sometimes you need to work a little more to get it right, hence the Strain and DP cost. Then the player retains control over the PC, and all your examples can be better explained by the character willing to spend dark pips without spending Strain or a DP and taking the ethical hit. Perhaps Ezra didn't have enough Strain and no DPs, and the situation was desperate, so the "player behind Ezra" made that choice, and then continues with it because they want to play Ezra through a dark side arc.

To me Force Rating is simply a representation of your mastery over how you use the Force (from a place of peace or from emotion) as well as strength/skill in it.

Force die are not your emotional state. That's hyperbolic straw-man posturing.

I mean we're fully in the realm of fluff here, right? But I think rolling a Die to see if you "have access" to peace just means that people are complex, and contain within them not only the ability to experience many emotions at once, but the ability to be motivated by emotions they may not fully be aware of (lizard-brain stuff), and the more Force Die you have the more control you have at any given time over how you are working with the Force (better chance to get the pips you want).

Not using black pips (in addition to narrative) to generate Conflict creates basically a completely different concept of the Force than what the canon media is.

To say that using black pips to generate Conflict endangers Players control over their PC is completely ridiculous because indeed it gives them complete control over their PC. It just represents their (lack of) training in how to use he Force.

19 hours ago, emsquared said:

Not using black pips (in addition to narrative) to generate Conflict creates basically a completely different concept of the Force than what the canon media is.

In comics and TV shows we see Dark-Side users using their abilities without gaining undue "conflict." In many cases, it would make no sense for black pips to generate conflict, such as using Force Lightning to jump-start a ship's reactor or something (I dunno how spaceships work). If a person uses Force Lightning in the woods and nobody's around to see it, does it still generate conflict? The books seem to be making assumptions as to what type of characters the players are playing, without taking into account the fact that players might want to follow something other than "the dogmatic, narrow view of the Jedi." Sure, the books give you the option to do Dark-Side stuff, but it's all presented through the Jedi's idea of the Dark Side.

5 hours ago, Nivrap said:

In comics and TV shows we see Dark-Side users using their abilities without gaining undue "conflict." In many cases, it would make no sense for black pips to generate conflict, such as using Force Lightning to jump-start a ship's reactor or something (I dunno how spaceships work). If a person uses Force Lightning in the woods and nobody's around to see it, does it still generate conflict? The books seem to be making assumptions as to what type of characters the players are playing, without taking into account the fact that players might want to follow something other than "the dogmatic, narrow view of the Jedi." Sure, the books give you the option to do Dark-Side stuff, but it's all presented through the Jedi's idea of the Dark Side.

Force Lightning in it's very nature is a dark aside force power. It's the twisting in reality with hate that creates lightning that makes it naturally a dark side power, a power considered unnatural. Thus even if used to power and Orphanage of sick children requiring ventilation, the person who used force lightning would be subject to conflict that would likely shift them toward the dark side due to the imbalance of their own emotions. Conflict is never about the result (it funnily enough doesn't care at all for the loss of life as evidenced by the destruction of the death star, as long as balance of the force (eradication of the darkside and instruments created to spread terror) is maintained.) but about the emotional state and the methods those results are achieved.

That being said, I would much rather read some of the alternative traditions even if they are non canon. It makes sense to talk from the Jedi view because they arguably have the most balanced perspective on the force (They were very right about Annie being unsuitable due to his inability to discard attachments and generally are a better authority on "balance" then the sith, just they dealt with emotional issues the wrong way.), just to be honest I feel the force has a fairly relaxed viewpoint as it is. If you follow the natural view of the force, then you will generally lead a healthy lifestyle in tune with the force. If you're religion generally similar to the witches, distortion and the like, then you will have a leaning to the darkside.

The thing I'm interested in is how "magic", such of the type that the night sisters use, works. Personally I believe the force is partly subject to expectations, your expectations of the force manipulates what the force can show you. Thus that might be the big reveal: while good and evil strictly exist as two binary forces, the expression of the force is entirely dependant on your perspective, thus being completely separate from the Jedi and sith may provide a different evolutionary chain in how they tap into the force. Like playing Manjong when the Jedi and Sith play chess.

3 hours ago, LordBritish said:

Force Lightning in it's very nature is a dark aside force power. It's the twisting in reality with hate that creates lightning that makes it naturally a dark side power, a power considered unnatural.

This doesn't make any sense though, as the Jedi do equally reality-warping stuff, like mind-control. Besides, both powers are simply extensions of how reality normally works. Lightning is just the proper arrangement of positively- and negatively-charged particles, and mind-control is simply firing neurons in the brain. Using the Force to do either of these things shouldn't arbitrarily cause the "darkness" or "lightness" of the universe to shift, and so far we have no evidence to say they do.

3 hours ago, LordBritish said:

It makes sense to talk from the Jedi view because they arguably have the most balanced perspective on the force (They were very right about Annie being unsuitable due to his inability to discard attachments and generally are a better authority on "balance" then the sith, just they dealt with emotional issues the wrong way.)

They were right about Annie being unstable because they were the ones who made him that way. That aside, they are far from an authority on either inner balance (repressing their emotions and whatnot) or balance in the Force (using only the light side and hunting down dissenters).

3 hours ago, LordBritish said:

The thing I'm interested in is how "magic", such of the type that the night sisters use, works.

If I remember correctly, Mother Talzin stated that her magic is simply a different Force tradition. Honestly, considering her ability to manipulate life energy (creating zombies, using voodoo dolls), I wouldn't be surprised if Darth Plagueis learned from the Nightsisters when he figured out how to stop people from dying.

52 minutes ago, Nivrap said:

This doesn't make any sense though, as the Jedi do equally reality-warping stuff, like mind-control. Besides, both powers are simply extensions of how reality normally works. Lightning is just the proper arrangement of positively- and negatively-charged particles, and mind-control is simply firing neurons in the brain. Using the Force to do either of these things shouldn't arbitrarily cause the "darkness" or "lightness" of the universe to shift, and so far we have no evidence to say they do.

They were right about Annie being unstable because they were the ones who made him that way. That aside, they are far from an authority on either inner balance (repressing their emotions and whatnot) or balance in the Force (using only the light side and hunting down dissenters).

If I remember correctly, Mother Talzin stated that her magic is simply a different Force tradition. Honestly, considering her ability to manipulate life energy (creating zombies, using voodoo dolls), I wouldn't be surprised if Darth Plagueis learned from the Nightsisters when he figured out how to stop people from dying.

The Jedi generally do much smaller things with the force then the sith do however. Influencing someones mind patterns to think something that avoids potential conflict is quite different from summoning a personal lightning storm to torture a person at all. In the original trilogy the force us largely used to avoid conflict, e.g. "these droids aren't important" "there is a sound over there" "fetch me that lightsaber." "Where is that blaster bolt going?" "I need to send a message" "Lift a large material object out of a pond". This can be compared to the sith's use of it, it's typically "Choke this guy to intimidate a room" "Snap this guy's neck from the comfort of my chair" "If these two guards aren't going to let me through I'm going to choke them until they pass out" "Torture at will". The evil characters generally used the force in a very direct manner that is intended to do lasting harm, compared to the Jedi simply using the force to achieve their aims without collateral. Sidious's use of Force Lightning. We rarely see the Jedi use the force directly on any living beings even within the PT unless there is an urgent need for it.

Plus the emotional state MUST be considered when drawing on the force. Using the force in a neutral, a controlled or a positive state of mind is perfectly fine, but if you use the force with a negative frame of mind then the act of distorting the force excessively generates the dark side which is exactly how people fall. While dipping into it in a controlled manner is fine; using the wrong mindset is damaging. That is irrefutable and is precisely why most force sensitives are religiously trained to control their emotions, less their emotions end up controlling them. Besides, your looking at them too technically; this is ultimately a fantasy universe in a si-fi dressing so physics doesn't necessarily work the way it's intended, especially with space wizards involved.

That being said, Emerald Lightning is the product of using force lightning in a positive way and I guess thinking about it from a certain perspective; lightning that is designed to forfill a very particular purpose might pass, The description of the dark side is literally "Powers one would consider unnatural.", so powers that disrupt the natural order of life generally fit that bill. Even if those powers were used to power an orphanage.

Re annie: Yes and no. Annie did have several weaknesses that they didn't address. He had a strong attachment to his mother that he never let go of and ended up developing a relationship that he concealed from the Jedi, all as a biproduct of having a free life. It's very likely that most of the Jedi never knew about him and Padme, there was a war on and they had better things to do. Frankly Annie brought a lot of his trouble down on himself and those problems were amplified greatly by the war; had it been in peace time perhaps things wouldn't have escalated quite so dramatically.

That being said just because they failed him didn't mean they are a better authority then most people. Self control is extremely important and while culling of emotions isn't at all beneficial, the only way to avoid falling is to have the discipline not to tap into the resource in a uncontrollable manner. Just as with anything to do with religion, nothing is 100% correct as the force is a being just beyond understanding. Jedi had no way of looking at the force directly aside from looking at potential symptoms of sensitivity. E.g. midacholorians.

2 hours ago, LordBritish said:

The Jedi generally do much smaller things with the force then the sith do however. Influencing someones mind patterns to think something that avoids potential conflict is quite different from summoning a personal lightning storm to torture a person at all.

You're forgetting that we see Jedi use the Force for offense in Ep. I-III and TCW all the time, whether its smashing droids, throwing objects at people, or (more egregiously) torturing Cad Bane into revealing the location of the Kyber Memory Crystal. Besides, I'm not talking about using lightning to attack someone generating conflict. That obviously would, as would any offense-oriented attack. I mean just shooting lightning harmlessly into the ground. In what way is that generating conflict. The game can never decide whether conflict is decided on a societal scale or a universal scale.

2 hours ago, LordBritish said:

While dipping into it in a controlled manner is fine; using the wrong mindset is damaging. That is irrefutable and is precisely why most force sensitives are religiously trained to control their emotions, less their emotions end up controlling them.

I staunchly disagree. Emotion does not equal a lack of control. Dooku, for instance, used emotions to use the Dark Side, but kept them in check, even chastising Ventress for letting her emotions get the better of her. Sidious also demonstrate control over his emotions without completely severing them. That's not to say the Jedi are completely wrong, but neither are the Sith. Jedi like Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, who demonstrate discipline without forsaking their emotional nature, are prime examples of what Jedi should be, though at that point they'd no longer be called Jedi.

2 hours ago, LordBritish said:

The description of the dark side is literally "Powers one would consider unnatural.", so powers that disrupt the natural order of life generally fit that bill. Even if those powers were used to power an orphanage.

But, by some theories, lightning was a vital part of life originating in the first place, so how can it be considered against the natural order of life? Much of the time, good or bad in Star Wars seems to be decided by what's "scary," which is no reasonable indicator for morality in the first place.

2 hours ago, LordBritish said:

Self control is extremely important and while culling of emotions isn't at all beneficial, the only way to avoid falling is to have the discipline not to tap into the resource in a uncontrollable manner. Just as with anything to do with religion, nothing is 100% correct as the force is a being just beyond understanding.

This is precisely what I mean. The way I see it, using emotion isn't bad unless you're consumed by it, and the same goes for discipline. I love Force and Destiny, but my biggest gripe is that it's falsely-advertised. Without homerules, it is not a game about playing Force-users—it's a game about playing Jedi, and not everyone wants that.

The problem with any morality system is that morals are an inherently very personal, subjective and divisive concept in real life. I don't think there will ever be a system that anybody will be satisfied with, even if there is one that people like.

Star Wars, at least in its original state, is based on tales of virtuous heroes fighting unambiguously wicked foes. Fairy tales. Stories of knights fighting monstrous dragons and evil wizards. It uses a binary black/white morality. Many people in real life don't hold those same beliefs; even people who do hold a strong belief in good/evil will probably agree on a range or morally gray uncertainty and allowance. Not helped by the writers of canon and EU adding elements of gray to the mix.

Any game that role-plays any realistic thing has to make compromises, willful breaks in reality, to work. It's even harder when the 'realistic' thing is highly subjective.

44 minutes ago, Nivrap said:

I mean just shooting lightning harmlessly into the ground. In what way is that generating conflict.

In a real world sense, yeah, all the Sith are doing is shooting lightning from their hands. It's just electricity. Nothing wrong with electricity, there's a lot of good you can do with that.

But, from within Star Wars, is that all it is? Sources seem to say that it's the user channeling their hate into their foe to induce agonizing pain and eventual death. The ability to manifest hatred into a killing strike of electricity is not something we can rationalize or compare, because it doesn't happen in real life. So the fiction has to say and show "this is a bad thing" and the audience has to accept it, because that's how that fiction works.

2 hours ago, Blackbird888 said:

But, from within Star Wars, is that all it is? Sources seem to say that it's the user channeling their hate into their foe to induce agonizing pain and eventual death. The ability to manifest hatred into a killing strike of electricity is not something we can rationalize or compare, because it doesn't happen in real life. So the fiction has to say and show "this is a bad thing" and the audience has to accept it, because that's how that fiction works.

You're right, this is probably the crux of the issue. Due to contradictions between old canon and new canon, and even just unclear information (not to mention the whole fiction vs. reality thing), I don't think it's possible to make a guaranteed call on whether or not Force powers can be inherently good or evil. Especially in a franchise that has multiple lead writers with different conflicting ideas about how the Force works. I guess all we can do is root for our particular ideology and hope it wins.

Aye that is true. To be honest I'm not entirely sure why I argued the point as the parameters of what is considered a good or evil power is literally who used it. Luca's probably never put any thought into this so it's probably one of those "opinion pole" things. Discuss at the table before the start of a session. I am of the opinion that Force Lightning is an inherently evil power because it was used by inherently evil people.

As an aside though, I don't think Dooku was ever in control of his emotions after he joined sidious. Yes, he was focused but he was all consumed in his arrogance. Every dark sider has one major indulgence that sets one from another, Dooku's major issue was that he always felt that he was above the various pawns that were put into the CIS, it was only in that moment that his arms were cut off, he was completely defenceless and with two blades to his neck that in that moment he finally discovered how small he actually was, dying along with the entire rebellion he had created. Thus Dooku wasn't in control of his emotions because he was with the darkside, and in doing so became a profoundly different person then the man that mentored Qui-Gon.