2 minutes ago, Amraam01 said:

I dont know, more rounds also encourages fewer ships builds, as MSA lists are more taxing and more chances to make mistakes and more decisions to make. Maybe that could be a factor why there was so many large fewer ships builds. With that many rounds simplifying may be the key. Plus, maybe people would have more time to hang out after with fewer rounds.

MSU is taxing, but the core mechanics of the game kind of reward it.

As Q said, big ships are high risk, high reward. If you can eliminate the threat to a large ship, then it will typically bully a table unmatched and can lead to some big wins. If you don't eliminate the threats, you most likely lose big as you forfeit 100+ points and may not have a list to fight back. Most of the large ship fleets are built around supporting that large ship, lists are all in on the ISD getting the BRAvenger off and trading big. Sometimes a big ship will kill another big ship and won't earn its points back. the best games I had were the games i was able to take demo/quasar + the isd. My raider ISD were able to take 1, but i left 3 Motti ISDs at 1hp. There is some minor upgrade swaps I could make to change this but really killing any of those ISDs gives me a 7-4 over a 4-7. That's the game. I am not entirely sure imperial MSU exists outside the clone-olisher list and even then, I always felt that rebels just did it better. especially now with hammer heads.

I am already tweaking and working on new lists and can not wait for regional season.

Just now, BergerFett said:

MSU is taxing, but the core mechanics of the game kind of reward it.

As Q said, big ships are high risk, high reward. If you can eliminate the threat to a large ship, then it will typically bully a table unmatched and can lead to some big wins. If you don't eliminate the threats, you most likely lose big as you forfeit 100+ points and may not have a list to fight back. Most of the large ship fleets are built around supporting that large ship, lists are all in on the ISD getting the BRAvenger off and trading big. Sometimes a big ship will kill another big ship and won't earn its points back. the best games I had were the games i was able to take demo/quasar + the isd. My raider ISD were able to take 1, but i left 3 Motti ISDs at 1hp. There is some minor upgrade swaps I could make to change this but really killing any of those ISDs gives me a 7-4 over a 4-7. That's the game. I am not entirely sure imperial MSU exists outside the clone-olisher list and even then, I always felt that rebels just did it better. especially now with hammer heads.

I am already tweaking and working on new lists and can not wait for regional season.

Yeah I working on some MSA lists that have promise, but for a tournament like this, I would not even take any of my favorite lists but would bring a simple 2 or 3 ship list just to make it through the day.

Just now, Amraam01 said:

Yeah I working on some MSA lists that have promise, but for a tournament like this, I would not even take any of my favorite lists but would bring a simple 2 or 3 ship list just to make it through the day.

there is 100% some gamer stamina training involved.

My first big Warmachine hordes event was a 6 round team tournament at TempleCon. it was massive. It took 14 hours + to complete with no food breaks. I was exhausted.

Things you need for those events

• Snacks, not junk food, but good snacks. fruit snacks for some vitamins, nuts and beef jerky for protien. Making sure you never are hungry, but also never feel full is super important. over eating a big lunch or breakfast can be as bad as not eating at all.
• Water. Stay hydrated but also, don't over hydrate. I brought a nalgene bottle and there are always water stations set up in the main areas.
• comfortable shoes. nothing, and i mean nothing is better than having a nice pair of shoes with thick socks when you will be standing for 10+ hours.
• lower back strength. Im 6'4". Those low tables are murder on my back and calves. they are a terrible height for me.

It takes some getting used too but you would be suprised what things effect you physically and mentally. I don't find the games mentally taxing, I find the standing, bending, and other things to be more demanding in the later rounds. That first warmachine event i brought a backpack full of snacks, like 60 fruit snacks from target and 3 lbs of jerky, and a cooler of water and gatorade for electrolytes. It definitely helps fight the fatigue.

I should mention, we did break after round 1 for lunch, and round 3 for dinner. So it's not like we just powered through it.
Most breaks were 45 min, although honestly almost everybody was done 15-20 minutes in almost every round before time was even called, giving us an hour break for the lunch and dinner or otherwise.
Coming from a guy that does medieval combat reenactment where you're on a battlefield fighting for upwards to 2-3 hours with only 5 minute water breaks on the hour, I'm used to stuff like this though.

22 hours ago, ripper998 said:

18 points for rebels but 23 for imperials. And we get a single blue dice on each hull zone. I would rather have the cheaper price.

I don't know. There are few things that have given me as much satisfaction as using Opening Salvo on a Gozanti to kill a Nebulon-B with another Nebulon-B (com noise to speed 0 and 1 hull left with another Nebulon immediately behind).

1 minute ago, thecactusman17 said:

I don't know. There are few things that have given me as much satisfaction as using Opening Salvo on a Gozanti to kill a Nebulon-B with another Nebulon-B (com noise to speed 0 and 1 hull left with another Nebulon immediately behind).

Or Gozantis hunting down a Most Wanted target with their 3 blue dice (5 if you get a double arc)

2 hours ago, Tokra said:

Or Gozantis hunting down a Most Wanted target with their 3 blue dice (5 if you get a double arc)

Or a GR-75 Combat Refit with Toryn Farr nearby putting up a flak storm.

I came *this* -><- close to giving my GR-75CR a Concentrate command one turn.

On 9/3/2017 at 2:52 AM, Card Knight said:

I was the fool running an Interdictor....haha.

What was your build and how did it go? (Still trying to get a 'Dictor list together!)

On 9/2/2017 at 9:52 PM, Card Knight said:

Thanks for running everything so smoothly Q!

I was the fool running an Interdictor....haha.

You were right, 5 rounds in a day was BRUTAL. I think the two breaks during the day and the fact that is was so cool in the bottom floor was a saving grace and kept it from being overwhelming.

it was great to meet you and play you

On 9/3/2017 at 8:44 AM, IceQube MkII said:

Thoughts from the Marshal's Chair:

@BiggsIRL - feel free to link to your blog for more analysis...

Heat 1:

With 20 ISDs out of 25 players. I think 6 were Rebels. I felt like there were at least 4 players with 2x ISDs but I feel like if you were playing Imps, you had an ISD? Anyways, you pretty had a Large Ship...

I don't play Large Ships because you either win big or lose big. I prefer "Whaling" or "Trading Up"... plus, when you run a Big Fish, there's gonna be a Bigger Fish, or Two Big Fish...

Kwak - 2x ISDs with JJ... he's been playing this for awhile so it makes sense he won Heat 1 with 38/50.

Sean @Itobergs (I think this is his callsign) - I credit him for making the SuperWhale Defiance with his Regionals x2 Wins. Dan ran his variant of this build.

Josh - A man after my own heart... the only true Combat MSU build. EVERYONE wanted to see your matches... with all the Rogues and Hammerheads, it was a scene outta Japanese anime or Robotech... visually appealing and probably mentally draining... fortunately, Gunnery Teams was not in style.

Heat 2:

More variety indeed. I'd say Sloane was in more force 20-25%? I'd say the Richmond Crew were using Imp Aces 2+3 (Demo + Quasar)... I think they were ready against Rieekan Aces and they had advantages over Big Ship builds but they eliminated each other.

Daryl won the Heat at 37 but couldn't make Sat. Rieekan Aces?

Matt - 2+4 Rieekan Aces.

Greg/Ron - SuperWhale Definace builds.

Stephen - a variant on Norm's winning GenCon list.

Swiss Cut:

Now that it's over... I was rooting for Josh because it's my favored playstyle. Given a field 4 SuperWhales, I felt Matt had the inside edge in matchups to win it all. Congrats to Matt! Haha... he borrowed my range ruler and maneuver tool...

Some crazy highlights...

Greg knocked out both of Kwak's ISDs with his build and came super close from running his MC80 off the table!

Matt somehow forgot one round of dials. I had to rule "Missed Opportunity" and he still won it all!

META Analysis:

Best Ship in the Game: GR-75 Medium Transport!

Recap for newer players: For 18 points, you get an activation and the best tarpit in the game. Large ships may waste a big attack (opportunity cost to fire on your more important ships) and still do no damage. Everybody that follow these forums knows my disdain for flotillas. Kudos to @Tokra... peeps don't analyze your 8 Gozanti build enough... so brutally efficient!

I love Brawlers (Gladiator/MC30) but... (Note these are "napkin" calcs)...

Glad I (2 Red on approach, 4 Black on Demo.... first turn 2 Red/2 Black, 4 Black) = 1.5+4+3.5+4 = 13 damage... requires bidding for first, surviving the approach, double-arcing, getting into black range...

Boarding Avenger (3 Red, 2 Blue, 3 Black).... 3.75 + 3 = 7 damage... no defense. Much easier to set up the shot, bidding for first.

Defiance (4 Red + 2 Blue + 2 Red Ackbar + Black) = 7 damage... with Leading Shots + X17, etc... I think you are consistently getting 10+ damage. Much safer.

Long story short... the Defiance builds can 2-shot most things in the game... hence, Brawlers which can hunt them and trade up are showing up less! Boarding Avengers can survive things are easier to set up.

Which leads to...

You need to be able to kill Large Ships AND Flotillas... what does both the best?

H9 MC80, Large Ships, Squadrons!

Best Title in the Game: Yavaris!

I get that Avenger is the new hotness... but with Rieekan and Relay...

If you take 2 rounds of Yavaris squadrons double-taps, you will lose a Large at the end of the game. Yavaris, the bullet magnet, trades up against Larges most of the time. With Relay, it's signifcantly easier to set up squadron double taps. Rieekan usually gives you that 2 rounds of Yavaris if not 3.

Sloane Aces can beat the current Rieekan Aces (tougher if Gallant **** shows up) but perhaps Rieekan Aces is more consistent against the overall field (it's harder to lose big even in poor matchups)? Hehe... maybe my bro @Capt. Griff (I hope that's your callsign) who finished 2nd at GenCon and face a lot of 2+3 can comment?

TL; DR - As discussed elsewhere...

Relay - I think it needs to be in Range of the squadron commanding ship.

Haha... you need a "Demo" that can trade up vs Yavaris... which is really hard.

Whew... that was a lot of thoughts... I can clarify and edit based on discussion.

Stay Hothy everyone!

UPDATE: If your going 2nd... play Most Wanted/Gunnery, Fire Lanes, Sensor Net to win big!

I can talk about things! So Sloane will be very very good while she is RAW. Her ability to lock down tolkens will make her a valuable asset. Also not just one token, but double brace she is super effective against. I believe the math is working out right now that smaller HP squads with two different tokens (TIE Aces, Dengar, Etc) have much higher % chance of survival per attack due to not being locked down by one accuracy due to Sloan Raw.

Her effectiveness is not just good with Aces, or TIE fighters/interceptors, but also with ships where you wouldn't consider their output to be modified. This includes TIE Phantoms since now their expected damage output is 1dmg per shot.
{ 1(2/8)[normal single damage they can use on red dice] + 1(1/8)[this is the accuracy symbol. I am counting it as damage for the sake of it doing something like taking tokens away during their shot] +2(1/8)[This is the double damage symbol] +0(4/8)[represents sides of the red dice that cant be used BUT you can re roll both crit symbols! I just don't know how to factor re rolls into expected damage formulas) this comes out to .625 damage per shot. Since there are 2 red dice per attack that comes out to 1.25. It is actually higher with the re rolls in mind :D. Which is better than the interceptor's and fighters damage of just .75 damage per attack!(again its .75 if you include accuracies as 1 damage) Sorry, I will leave the math alone now. Also chances are I messed it up somewhere so sorry head of time.

Anyway...I foresee the use of phantoms to be pretty darn good. Also the basically have +1 speed as well which may not seem very important but at the end of round 1, you basically moved speed 5 to help position for the alpha strike.

This brings me to my next comment, Sloane vs Rieekan. So what this comes down to I feel is initiative and the alpha strike. Both of these are very important to squadrons and if you have both it doesn't matter which admiral you have. I feel either could win in a match up if you have both of those qualities. The difference is how the alpha strike is followed up. Sloane is the better alpha striker. Sloane with someone like vader can look at Wedge and kill him in one shot by being able to lock down both brace tokens with one accuracies. This can be said the same with Sloane's fighters in general. Her ability to strike first is her greatest asset. Rieekan though has the ability to make the opponent's squad scrambler ships go down faster. Remember, typically if someone is running a squad heavy list, that also means their ships down have too much firepower. So Rieekan can not only use his ability to make sure a squad can hit back before dying, but he can also go straight for the throat much easier and take down Sloane's flagship with more ease due to not having to worry about losing a ship to get in a better position to hit with black dice or something.

The real question I feel is that will FFG change the rules so that Sloane can't lock down double brace squadrons. Or rather make it so that an opponent can still used any token that was spent during the attack. If that is the case, I honest to god feel she won't be anything too special as long as you still have initiative and a strong squad comp.

Sorry for rambling and hope that helps

Sorry, but Sloane does little vs double brace.

You spend one, but unless you have another acc, defender can use the other.

Oc if you have 2 accs that fine, but then your damage is likely low.

Sloane is still better than plain, but not all that much.

On 9/3/2017 at 11:27 PM, BergerFett said:

Things you need for those events

• Snacks, not junk food, but good snacks. fruit snacks for some vitamins, nuts and beef jerky for protien. Making sure you never are hungry, but also never feel full is super important. over eating a big lunch or breakfast can be as bad as not eating at all.
• Water. Stay hydrated but also, don't over hydrate. I brought a nalgene bottle and there are always water stations set up in the main areas.
• comfortable shoes. nothing, and i mean nothing is better than having a nice pair of shoes with thick socks when you will be standing for 10+ hours.
• lower back strength. Im 6'4". Those low tables are murder on my back and calves. they are a terrible height for me.

I also try to help the surrounding players out by bringing a bag of peanut M&Ms to share - then everybody is generally more of a pleasure to play with.

1 hour ago, Ken-Obi said:

I also try to help the surrounding players out by bringing a bag of peanut M&Ms to share - then everybody is generally more of a pleasure to play with.

Might be the greatest post I've ever read! I'd be your Padawan any day!

21 hours ago, Ken-Obi said:

I also try to help the surrounding players out by bringing a bag of peanut M&Ms to share - then everybody is generally more of a pleasure to play with.

yes kill your opponents with peanut allergies.... i love it.

yea 60 fruit snacks is more than enough for one person, im all for offering up to my opponents as a common courtesy

2 minutes ago, BergerFett said:

yes kill your opponents with peanut allergies.... i love it.

yea 60 fruit snacks is more than enough for one person, im all for offering up to my opponents as a common courtesy

Peanut Allergies>

How about the So-Rare-its-barely-belived-to-exist Chocolate Allergy?

Because I can eat peanuts...

(And Fruit snacks only work if they're actual fruit, because Artificial Colours and Flavours are bad, too...)

Everyone is always offering to kill me.

And no, that's not how I take it

TO be perfectly honest, I'm always very delighted to see someone at least try to be courteous and helpful to their fellow competitors like that.

I just get Jealous that, generally, I can't indulge.

GUm/Mints are another good one. Sometimes you get stank breath after playing and not drinking anything for so long, or just grabbing a smoke between rounds. I used to always through a tin of altoids in my WMH bag before events for this reason

On 9/8/2017 at 5:03 PM, Green Knight said:

Sorry, but Sloane does little vs double brace.

You spend one, but unless you have another acc, defender can use the other.

Oc if you have 2 accs that fine, but then your damage is likely low.

Sloane is still better than plain, but not all that much.

That isn't true. During the attack the defender may only spend 1 type of defense token. Since Sloane "spends" a defense token during the attack, the defender may not use that same type of token. Example: if I have an interceptor that roles 3 hits and an acc, I can spend one of Vader's two brace tokens. Since the brace token was spend during the attack by the attacker, the defender can't spend a brace token since it was spent already. That is why Sloane is very good vs double brace aces. @IceQube MkII can you confirm if this is correct? Or am I totally off base here.

3 hours ago, Capt. Griff said:

That isn't true. During the attack the defender may only spend 1 type of defense token. Since Sloane "spends" a defense token during the attack, the defender may not use that same type of token. Example: if I have an interceptor that roles 3 hits and an acc, I can spend one of Vader's two brace tokens. Since the brace token was spend during the attack by the attacker, the defender can't spend a brace token since it was spent already. That is why Sloane is very good vs double brace aces. @IceQube MkII can you confirm if this is correct? Or am I totally off base here.

Unfortunately you are a bit off base.

The defender can only spend one token of the same type, that is correct.

However, the token spent by Sloane doesn't count. It's not spent by the defender.

The NOVA 'controversy' if I may call it that, was something else:

If Sloane spends your Scatter, turning it red, can the defender still discard it for effect?

The initial ruling was 'yes', but after some discussion - and much shouting - it was changed.

29 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Unfortunately you are a bit of base.

The defender can only spend one token of the same type, that is correct.

However, the token spent by Sloane doesn't count. It's not spent by the defender.

The NOVA 'controversy' if I may call it that, was something else:

If Sloane spends your Scatter, turning it red, can the defender still discard it for effect?

The initial ruling was 'yes', but after some discussion - and much shouting - it was changed.

Ah! Then I stand corrected. That seems much better. I was unsure on how the ruling was cast on that, and initially I came to my first conclusion by attempting to interpret the nuances of the spend defense tokens step. Thanks for the clarification.

That said, yeah then Sloane is a bit harder to use against double token characters. Perhaps they may even be a good counter against her in the future. More test runs are needed before I say more on that though.

1 minute ago, Capt. Griff said:

Ah! Then I stand corrected. That seems much better. I was unsure on how the ruling was cast on that, and initially I came to my first conclusion by attempting to interpret the nuances of the spend defense tokens step. Thanks for the clarification.

That said, yeah then Sloane is a bit harder to use against double token characters. Perhaps they may even be a good counter against her in the future. More test runs are needed before I say more on that though.

She's still quite useful.

Roll one accuracy: spend a brace token. Defender spends the other to halve damage. Net gain 1 spent token.

Roll two accuracy: lock down one brace, spend the other. Defender can't halve damage. Net gain 1 spent token.

So whatever happens, Sloane wins

@Capt. Griff

Yup, @Green Knight described Sloane succinctly and perfectly in writitng.

Braces Aces can indeed use the other non targeted Brace. It's kinda like Intel Officer targeting the Brace on Yavaris or Liberty. You can use the other one.