Hey everybody... as the Marshal (I'm fuzzy on things as my focus was on "in game" things.), some thoughts...

5 Rounds in a Day is BRUTAL! Shout out to everybody that played all the rounds in their heat! I think the format was chosen because we were expecting a lot more players (25 Day One - 30 signed up?; 29 Day Two - 40 signed up?) and I think we wanted the players to get their money's worth with all the resources (time and money) to attend. Good to see a lot of familiar faces and a lot of new faces... truly the People's Game! New players don't be discouraged... Store Championships are usually 3 rounds. Everyone was fired up at Round 1 and everybody was hurting in Round 5... given the marathon, overall, peeps did not get grumpy at the end - kudos to you all!

The Cut: Given the anticipated turnouts on the two heats, we took Top 2 from each day and 4 "Wild Cards" from the rest of the field. Daryl won Heat 2 but had personal things so he dropped. As luck would have it... Top 4 from each day made the cut. In retrospect, we should have waited to see how many people actually played in each heat (there was an anticipated numbers discrepancy for both heats and we felt it was more fair to take Wild Cards). Nevertheless, it was exciting (well, from my perspective... probably more stressful for players) as you were battling for an auto bid while battling for a Wild Card. In one sense, Thursday players get rest for Saturday but Friday players know who they are chasing.

Judging: Over two days, I think I made 40 rulings/clarifications and 15 measurements. Much respect to peeps that do this in any capacity for the love of the game in their respective communities. To attendees (especially new players), I hope I was courteous, clear and helped your understanding of the game. Thanks to everybody that asked how I was doing and asked if they could grab me eats/drinks... (I don't usually look like I've been beaten by a stick (I hope!) but I'm currently under the weather taking anitbiotics!) Thanks for @Drasnighta... I had a bunch of conversations with him to get me into "judge" mode. While I knew the calls, his great advice was that people get in trouble by "skipping steps" - so I was reading cards freshly before each call.

Top 8 Fleets... @Truthiness

Note: I'm using Titles as a shorthand (not necessarily the upgrade)...

Daryl - Home One, Neb + Sqd Hvy (dropped)

Heat 1: 2x ISD; Home One + Admo; Hammerhead Swarm + Rogues; Home One?

Heat 2: ISD + Demo + Sqd Hvy; Home One + 2x TRCs; 2+4 Rieekan Aces (Yav, Shrimp); Home One?

Tale of two Heats:

Heat 1: Lots of double ISD builds. Large Ship Heavy.

Heat 2: Squad Heavy with Flotillas. More variety/balanced. The Richmond crew pretty much knocked themselves out since they faced each other with similar builds.

I guess today will be a battle of philosophies! 7 of the Top 9 have a Large Ship (Guess they are OP'd! LOL).

OKies, I need to try to get more sleep... I'll let the spectators update this thread today...

Most importantly, I think peeps told me they had a fun experience!

Q, you rock. Thanks for all your hard work yesterday.

Had fun in Heat 1 despite being largely a basement-dweller. Nice to see ISDs on the table even if we succumbed to ISD-overkill (every match I played was against 1 x ISD plus Demo plus support, or 2 x ISDs -- I felt like that Rebel fleet on the run after Hoth).

Five rounds though ... brutal. Worlds 2016 was only four rounds in a day, then cut.

Yeah, I recommend never exceeding 4 rounds in a day!

Also, as i've said many times before, I think you need to know your fleet inside out (e.g., don't netlist) and/or make a simple fleet (see my write-ups - GenCon 2015, US Nat 2016) because fatigue is real.

Yeah, for the fatigue factor, I think I need to simplify. Even though I've been running essentially the same fleet for a year with relatively minor tweaks, I don't play enough, so there are always those upgrades or abilities I forget to use. Dropping some of those upgrades that I constantly forget might allow me to slip in another activation or some more fighters, too.

8 hours ago, IceQube MkII said:

Yeah, I recommend never exceeding 4 rounds in a day!

Also, as i've said many times before, I think you need to know your fleet inside out (e.g., don't netlist) and/or make a simple fleet (see my write-ups - GenCon 2015, US Nat 2016) because fatigue is real.

Fatigue becomes a thing starting round 3. For me anyway.

I don't really forget stuff, but I simply care less. So I make decisions I might not have in round 1 or 2.

Thanks for running everything so smoothly Q!

I was the fool running an Interdictor....haha.

You were right, 5 rounds in a day was BRUTAL. I think the two breaks during the day and the fact that is was so cool in the bottom floor was a saving grace and kept it from being overwhelming.

Fantastic event, well run, such a great, friendly community.

Huge shout out to those that lent me an extra maneuver tool, ranger finder, and damage deck when i forgot mine back in Oregon.

Thank you for lending so I could be allowed to play. Seriously, words can' t express my apprication.

US Nats Tourney Format: (I got involved about a month out so...)

5 Rounds Swiss (Two Heats) + Cut to Top 8 for 3 Rounds of Swiss = Champ.

Qualifying Rounds:

5 is too much (though it does give you the time for a bad game and the best will usually rise to the top - it also accounts for mismatches/matchups in Round 1). 3 Rounds is ideal from a rest perspective but you should get your money's worth. 4 should be the standard for Premier Events (it's the right mix).

The More Debatable Swiss vs Elimination Rounds:

As I've discussed with @Captain Weather, in the history of Armada, the winner in Swiss in an Elimination Cut rematch usually loses to the player he/she beat. The loser learns from his mistakes and the winner usually goes with the plan that got him there. So the winner has to anticipate what the loser will adjust and adjust a winning strategy putting the winner at a disadvantage. Also, in Elimination, we could potentially get boring games where you get a 6-5 for being 2nd Player or you win by killing a Z-95.

In Swiss Playoff Rounds, you can take a bigger cut allowing more peeps to get more games in. We decided to reset the scores and play a 3 Round Sprint.

• If FFG has a moving camera, it's a more interesting Twitch Feed as you can move games to switch to where the action is.
• Players continue to fight extra hard to win.
• If a players gets knocked out early, they may drop upsetting the balance.
• You made the cut via Swiss Rules, why change the scoring to?

We now have data from US Nationals to open this for discussion.

Q's Proposal:

If I were the TO, I would say.... 4 Rounds Swiss (One Heat - Limit to say 64 players) + 4 Rounds Swiss (Reset Scores - Top 16/32 Cut). This is the ideal in my opinion. The incentive would be top 16 prizes.

OR

4 + Cut 4 (Play Round Robin)

OR

4/3 + 3 (No Reset after Cut --- 6 Rounds is enough time to find a winner). Allows enough people to drop after Day 1.

No system will ever provide the "right" outcome in all circumstances.

But I agree having the stand alone final often seems contentious. Just the fact that its winner takes all drastically changes the type of game. Neither of the Nationals finals Ive watched looked anything like the main round games.

Keeping it decided by some type of swiss system would result in a better test of generalship all the way through.

Thoughts from the Marshal's Chair:

@BiggsIRL - feel free to link to your blog for more analysis...

Heat 1:

With 20 ISDs out of 25 players. I think 6 were Rebels. I felt like there were at least 4 players with 2x ISDs but I feel like if you were playing Imps, you had an ISD? Anyways, you pretty had a Large Ship...

I don't play Large Ships because you either win big or lose big. I prefer "Whaling" or "Trading Up"... plus, when you run a Big Fish, there's gonna be a Bigger Fish, or Two Big Fish...

Kwak - 2x ISDs with JJ... he's been playing this for awhile so it makes sense he won Heat 1 with 38/50.

Sean @Itobergs (I think this is his callsign) - I credit him for making the SuperWhale Defiance with his Regionals x2 Wins. Dan ran his variant of this build.

Josh - A man after my own heart... the only true Combat MSU build. EVERYONE wanted to see your matches... with all the Rogues and Hammerheads, it was a scene outta Japanese anime or Robotech... visually appealing and probably mentally draining... fortunately, Gunnery Teams was not in style.

Heat 2:

More variety indeed. I'd say Sloane was in more force 20-25%? I'd say the Richmond Crew were using Imp Aces 2+3 (Demo + Quasar)... I think they were ready against Rieekan Aces and they had advantages over Big Ship builds but they eliminated each other.

Daryl won the Heat at 37 but couldn't make Sat. Rieekan Aces?

Matt - 2+4 Rieekan Aces.

Greg/Ron - SuperWhale Definace builds.

Stephen - a variant on Norm's winning GenCon list.

Swiss Cut:

Now that it's over... I was rooting for Josh because it's my favored playstyle. Given a field 4 SuperWhales, I felt Matt had the inside edge in matchups to win it all. Congrats to Matt! Haha... he borrowed my range ruler and maneuver tool...

Some crazy highlights...

Greg knocked out both of Kwak's ISDs with his build and came super close from running his MC80 off the table!

Matt somehow forgot one round of dials. I had to rule "Missed Opportunity" and he still won it all!

META Analysis:

Best Ship in the Game: GR-75 Medium Transport!

Recap for newer players: For 18 points, you get an activation and the best tarpit in the game. Large ships may waste a big attack (opportunity cost to fire on your more important ships) and still do no damage. Everybody that follow these forums knows my disdain for flotillas. Kudos to @Tokra... peeps don't analyze your 8 Gozanti build enough... so brutally efficient!

I love Brawlers (Gladiator/MC30) but... (Note these are "napkin" calcs)...

Glad I (2 Red on approach, 4 Black on Demo.... first turn 2 Red/2 Black, 4 Black) = 1.5+4+3.5+4 = 13 damage... requires bidding for first, surviving the approach, double-arcing, getting into black range...

Boarding Avenger (3 Red, 2 Blue, 3 Black).... 3.75 + 3 = 7 damage... no defense. Much easier to set up the shot, bidding for first.

Defiance (4 Red + 2 Blue + 2 Red Ackbar + Black) = 7 damage... with Leading Shots + X17, etc... I think you are consistently getting 10+ damage. Much safer.

Long story short... the Defiance builds can 2-shot most things in the game... hence, Brawlers which can hunt them and trade up are showing up less! Boarding Avengers can survive things are easier to set up.

Which leads to...

You need to be able to kill Large Ships AND Flotillas... what does both the best?

H9 MC80, Large Ships, Squadrons!

Best Title in the Game: Yavaris!

I get that Avenger is the new hotness... but with Rieekan and Relay...

If you take 2 rounds of Yavaris squadrons double-taps, you will lose a Large at the end of the game. Yavaris, the bullet magnet, trades up against Larges most of the time. With Relay, it's signifcantly easier to set up squadron double taps. Rieekan usually gives you that 2 rounds of Yavaris if not 3.

Sloane Aces can beat the current Rieekan Aces (tougher if Gallant **** shows up) but perhaps Rieekan Aces is more consistent against the overall field (it's harder to lose big even in poor matchups)? Hehe... maybe my bro @Capt. Griff (I hope that's your callsign) who finished 2nd at GenCon and face a lot of 2+3 can comment?

TL; DR - As discussed elsewhere...

Relay - I think it needs to be in Range of the squadron commanding ship.

Haha... you need a "Demo" that can trade up vs Yavaris... which is really hard.

Whew... that was a lot of thoughts... I can clarify and edit based on discussion.

Stay Hothy everyone!

UPDATE: If your going 2nd... play Most Wanted/Gunnery, Fire Lanes, Sensor Net to win big!

Ideally, I would decide the whole thing on a Swiss system where everyone plays 7 rounds of Swiss with no cut. Two days, 4 games the first day, 3 games the second. Everyone who paid to play plays through the entire two days. Drops become less of a problem and every game counts. I would like to see prize support for the top 32 players. (With a probable 64 max players most folks would be in contention for a top 32 place well into the tournament)
Armada is a different fish to X-wing or IA etc and Swiss is the best way to play tournaments out.

8 minutes ago, Englishpete said:

Ideally, I would decide the whole thing on a Swiss system where everyone plays 7 rounds of Swiss with no cut. Two days, 4 games the first day, 3 games the second. Everyone who paid to play plays through the entire two days. Drops become less of a problem and every game counts. I would like to see prize support for the top 32 players. (With a probable 64 max players most folks would be in contention for a top 32 place well into the tournament)
Armada is a different fish to X-wing or IA etc and Swiss is the best way to play tournaments out.

That would be a blast.

I'll spam one last thread with the Steel Squadron take: http://xwingtactics.blogspot.com/2017/09/nationals-top-8-breakdown.html

As a player in the 2nd heat, i absolutely enjoyed the large amount of swiss rounds and i too feel it encouages better play from the finalists playing swiss matches.

Single elimination, all you see is cautious play.

18 points for rebels but 23 for imperials. And we get a single blue dice on each hull zone. I would rather have the cheaper price.

1 hour ago, IceQube MkII said:

Thoughts from the Marshal's Chair:

@BiggsIRL - feel free to link to your blog for more analysis...

Heat 1:

With 20 ISDs out of 25 players. I think 6 were Rebels. I felt like there were at least 4 players with 2x ISDs but I feel like if you were playing Imps, you had an ISD? Anyways, you pretty had a Large Ship...

I don't play Large Ships because you either win big or lose big. I prefer "Whaling" or "Trading Up"... plus, when you run a Big Fish, there's gonna be a Bigger Fish, or Two Big Fish...

Kwak - 2x ISDs with JJ... he's been playing this for awhile so it makes sense he won Heat 1 with 38/50.

Sean @Itobergs (I think this is his callsign) - I credit him for making the SuperWhale Defiance with his Regionals x2 Wins. Dan ran his variant of this build.

Josh - A man after my own heart... the only true Combat MSU build. EVERYONE wanted to see your matches... with all the Rogues and Hammerheads, it was a scene outta Japanese anime or Robotech... visually appealing and probably mentally draining... fortunately, Gunnery Teams was not in style.

Heat 2:

More variety indeed. I'd say Sloane was in more force 20-25%? I'd say the Richmond Crew were using Imp Aces 2+3 (Demo + Quasar)... I think they were ready against Rieekan Aces and they had advantages over Big Ship builds but they eliminated each other.

Daryl won the Heat at 37 but couldn't make Sat. Rieekan Aces?

Matt - 2+4 Rieekan Aces.

Greg/Ron - SuperWhale Definace builds.

Stephen - a variant on Norm's winning GenCon list.

Swiss Cut:

Now that it's over... I was rooting for Josh because it's my favored playstyle. Given a field 4 SuperWhales, I felt Matt had the inside edge in matchups to win it all. Congrats to Matt! Haha... he borrowed my range ruler and maneuver tool...

Some crazy highlights...

Greg knocked out both of Kwak's ISDs with his build and came super close from running his MC80 off the table!

Matt somehow forgot one round of dials. I had to rule "Missed Opportunity" and he still won it all!

META Analysis:

Best Ship in the Game: GR-75 Medium Transport!

Recap for newer players: For 18 points, you get an activation and the best tarpit in the game. Large ships may waste a big attack (opportunity cost to fire on your more important ships) and still do no damage. Everybody that follow these forums knows my disdain for flotillas. Kudos to @Tokra... peeps don't analyze your 8 Gozanti build enough... so brutally efficient!

I love Brawlers (Gladiator/MC30) but... (Note these are "napkin" calcs)...

Glad I (2 Red on approach, 4 Black on Demo.... first turn 2 Red/2 Black, 4 Black) = 1.5+4+3.5+4 = 13 damage... requires bidding for first, surviving the approach, double-arcing, getting into black range...

Boarding Avenger (3 Red, 2 Blue, 3 Black).... 3.75 + 3 = 7 damage... no defense. Much easier to set up the shot, bidding for first.

Defiance (4 Red + 2 Blue + 2 Red Ackbar + Black) = 7 damage... with Leading Shots + X17, etc... I think you are consistently getting 10+ damage. Much safer.

Long story short... the Defiance builds can 2-shot most things in the game... hence, Brawlers which can hunt them and trade up are showing up less! Boarding Avengers can survive things are easier to set up.

Which leads to...

You need to be able to kill Large Ships AND Flotillas... what does both the best?

H9 MC80, Large Ships, Squadrons!

Best Title in the Game: Yavaris!

I get that Avenger is the new hotness... but with Rieekan and Relay...

If you take 2 rounds of Yavaris squadrons double-taps, you will lose a Large at the end of the game. Yavaris, the bullet magnet, trades up against Larges most of the time. With Relay, it's signifcantly easier to set up squadron double taps. Rieekan usually gives you that 2 rounds of Yavaris if not 3.

Sloane Aces can beat the current Rieekan Aces (tougher if Gallant **** shows up) but perhaps Rieekan Aces is more consistent against the overall field (it's harder to lose big even in poor matchups)? Hehe... maybe my bro @Capt. Griff (I hope that's your callsign) who finished 2nd at GenCon and face a lot of 2+3 can comment?

TL; DR - As discussed elsewhere...

Relay - I think it needs to be in Range of the squadron commanding ship.

Haha... you need a "Demo" that can trade up vs Yavaris... which is really hard.

Whew... that was a lot of thoughts... I can clarify and edit based on discussion.

Stay Hothy everyone!

UPDATE: If your going 2nd... play Most Wanted/Gunnery, Fire Lanes, Sensor Net to win big!

thx for this informative write-up!

and yes, ffg, start acting on relay please.

2 hours ago, IceQube MkII said:

Sloane Aces can beat the current Rieekan Aces (tougher if Gallant **** shows up) but perhaps Rieekan Aces is more consistent against the overall field (it's harder to lose big even in poor matchups)? Hehe... maybe my bro @Capt. Griff (I hope that's your callsign) who finished 2nd at GenCon and face a lot of 2+3 can comment

i agree. The hardest matchups (for me with Sloane) are other lists with heavy squadrons. And especially Rieekan. Worst is if there is even a Galant Haven running around.

Quote

Relay - I think it needs to be in Range of the squadron commanding ship.

100% my thoughts. It is total insane how relay can allow a ship to activate squadrons on the other side of the map.

Quote

UPDATE: If your going 2nd... play Most Wanted/Gunnery, Fire Lanes, Sensor Net to win big!

And even more if you have strategic.
On the downside, if you dont have strategic, but your opponent has, the fire lanes and sensor net can backfire really hard.

3 hours ago, IceQube MkII said:

Relay - I think it needs to be in Range of the squadron commanding ship.

I love relay but I would totally agree with this.

Also agree, on some level that ship should be in range of the action and not on the other side of the board.

Speaking as one of the participants, I loved the Swiss final. Everyone had to play all out-no turtling for a 6-5 once you had a lead. It forced players to take risks, and made for engaging and challenging matches. Overall, I think Q and James did an excellent job running Nationals. Bear in mind, there was no one from FFG there to help with running the tournament-it was all on them and the Nova Open staff. James also had to run the two Armada Furball tournaments, which were a blast. FFG did provide awesome participation prizes for Furball, which was icing on the cake.

I cannot say this enough, but a huge, huge thanks to Q for Marshaling the event, instead of winning it for a third year in a row. He spent 3 days, paid hsi own gas / parking / food, and took no prize support, all so we could have a great time and avoid any bad calls.

If you thought playing 5 games was brutal, imagine doing it twice in a row!

5 rounds? Dear god! That would be too much gaming for me.

@IceQube MkII thanks for running things.

I agree 5 rounds is tough but not that tough. Honestly, I am not a fan of play one round and have a lunch break. I get why its done, I hate it in warmachine and just over all. I find people get their rythym and their rust out in round 1 and are ready for round 2, having the break can lead to losing lessons learned.

I understand that the rounds are 2:15 minutes love with a 9:30 start, having a lunch break at noonish after round 1 is meh, I really feel like people should have eating breakfast and should be good to go at least 2 rounds before needing a break.

The similarities between WMH events and armada events is striking. The same groups seem to go to round time in both games.

My suggestion would definitely be break after round 2 and 4, and maybe not even a second break. Or "you have 15minutes to get food, eat at the table" its not ideal but it would have trimmed 30minutes off the event.

Motti 2x ISD is a great counter to Sloane as she can really only reliably kill one ISD if that (i struggled to kill 3 of Motti's ISDs but was more of a list thing), In the past rebels have struggled as well against them when flown correctly so I was not shocked to see those lists enMasse, especially given the success at GenCon.

BTAvenger is maybe the Best ship in the game right now. Yavaris is really good I can not decide which one is better. This is the reason you saw so many ISDs, and given that in the past ISDs were sometimes considered a crutch, mostly for the high risk/high reward factors in playing big ships I am happy to see them. I do feel that having a squadron dial and token and getting to BT, activate 4 squadrons, then shoot is most likely too strong. Time will tell as more events happen.

Relay and Strategic are pretty OP. I feel relay is compounding the "flotilla issue" and strategic should be a range one, to Base 2 base placement not within range 1. The token should not move that far. I feel like if these 2 changes were made, that those abilities would still have a place in the meta, while not being really abusive as they sometimes are. That being said, snipe out the relay squadrons and you can typically ignore the rest of the squadrons they brought.

Once again, thank you for running things, you both got the event started in a timely manner, and kept the round pairings going up pretty quickly. All important things at Con level events.

As for Josh's list, that was a last minute thing he made. We were talking before the event about the list and he was pretty nervous IIRC, it was great to watch him go the distance with it, and even better to report back to the guys in the New England group chat about his exploits. I expect to see a lot more hammerheads on the table now which is always exciting.

Also I have said it for a while, atleast in my local circle that rebels are stronger. the game is about activations and maneuverability and its something rebels do better than imperials. I also feel like the majority of rebel admirals are overall better. Imperials MO is strong ships with swarm fighters where Rebels feel like swarm ships with strong fighters. Josh's list was the epitome of this. I am too much of an Imperial fanboi to play rebels but they are much better for the way that armada works. I am not sure raiders and arqs can perform in the same capacty if used like rebel MSU lists.

1 hour ago, BiggsIRL said:

I cannot say this enough, but a huge, huge thanks to Q for Marshaling the event, instead of winning it for a third year in a row. He spent 3 days, paid hsi own gas / parking / food, and took no prize support, all so we could have a great time and avoid any bad calls.

If you thought playing 5 games was brutal, imagine doing it twice in a row!

I would have loved to play Friday after playing Thursday, some minor tweaking and getting all the rust off would have been great. I really wish I tried to get a game in wednesday night to prep. I may have caught some list weaknesses earlier and could have turned 3 of my 4-7 loses into 7-4 victories.

15 hours ago, Karneck said:

As a player in the 2nd heat, i absolutely enjoyed the large amount of swiss rounds and i too feel it encouages better play from the finalists playing swiss matches.

Single elimination, all you see is cautious play.

I dont know, more rounds also encourages fewer ships builds, as MSA lists are more taxing and more chances to make mistakes and more decisions to make. Maybe that could be a factor why there was so many large fewer ships builds. With that many rounds simplifying may be the key. Plus, maybe people would have more time to hang out after with fewer rounds.