3 minutes ago, shosuko said:

I'm not sure I follow... Can you clarify? Is this specifically about Shameful Display? Or is this about some other effect?

For Shameful Display - honoring an honored character, or dishonoring a dishonored character would have no effect. If they can be effected by the status change, then the status change is the change - not the temporary stat boost.

Is this about some other card effect?

Duelist training, sorry about that, it looks like there's more than one cards being discussed.

2 minutes ago, LuceLineGames said:

Duelist training, sorry about that, it looks like there's more than one cards being discussed.

Ah good lol. I kinda thought you were referencing Duelist Training. I understand the conflict on it, but am not positive whether you could target a bowed character considering 1) Dials change, 2) honor could change hands, 3) cards could be discarded. I would say these are very strong arguments to duel regardless of the duel's actual effect... but I'm not certain if those are included in "this action could effect the game state."..

9 hours ago, shosuko said:

Ah good lol. I kinda thought you were referencing Duelist Training. I understand the conflict on it, but am not positive whether you could target a bowed character considering 1) Dials change, 2) honor could change hands, 3) cards could be discarded. I would say these are very strong arguments to duel regardless of the duel's actual effect... but I'm not certain if those are included in "this action could effect the game state."..

The question at hand for Duelist Training is regarding targeting requirements, which require that the target be affected (dials, discarded cards, honor are not the "target" of the duel). Game state change is only required for the requirements for a triggered action to be initiated in the first place. So, think of it this way:

- Will the triggered action change the game state in some way? If yes, I can continue. If no, I cannot even initiate the action. In this case, it absolutely will change.

- Okay, now I need to choose target(s) for the triggered action.

- Will the results of the action I am initiating affect the target(s) of the action in any way? If yes, I can continue the action. If no, I must either choose new targets or choose to stop the initiation of the triggered action. In this case, if the target is already bowed, the result of the duel (the bowing) will not affect the target, so it is possible they would be an invalid target. However, does the "change of skill during the duel" count as affecting the duelists? Hence, affecting the target and allowing the targeting of a bowed target.

For reference:

Quote

RRG (p. 16) Target - bullet #7

A card is not an eligible target for an ability if the resolution of that ability’s effect could not affect the target at all. (For example, a bowed character cannot be chosen as the target for an ability that reads “Action: Choose a character — bow that character.”)

28 minutes ago, Totengraber said:

The question at hand for Duelist Training is regarding targeting requirements, which require that the target be affected (dials, discarded cards, honor are not the "target" of the duel). Game state change is only required for the requirements for a triggered action to be initiated in the first place. So, think of it this way:

- Will the triggered action change the game state in some way? If yes, I can continue. If no, I cannot even initiate the action. In this case, it absolutely will change.

- Okay, now I need to choose target(s) for the triggered action.

- Will the results of the action I am initiating affect the target(s) of the action in any way? If yes, I can continue the action. If no, I must either choose new targets or choose to stop the initiation of the triggered action. In this case, if the target is already bowed, the result of the duel (the bowing) will not affect the target, so it is possible they would be an invalid target. However, does the "change of skill during the duel" count as affecting the duelists? Hence, affecting the target and allowing the targeting of a bowed target.

Quote

RRG (p. 16) Target - bullet #7

A card is not an eligible target for an ability if the resolution of that ability’s effect could not affect the target at all. (For example, a bowed character cannot be chosen as the target for an ability that reads “Action: Choose a character — bow that character.”)

I would like to point out that it is not the affect of the duel (or any effect during), it is the resolution of the action (a duel in this case) that causes the target to be invalid. If the effect on stats and the bowing happened during resolution then he would be a valid target. If the resolution effect is the bowing only then he is not a valid target. (Talking about targeting a bowed character).

16 minutes ago, Isawa Tasatu said:

I would like to point out that it is not the affect of the duel (or any effect during), it is the resolution of the action (a duel in this case) that causes the target to be invalid. If the effect on stats and the bowing happened during resolution then he would be a valid target. If the resolution effect is the bowing only then he is not a valid target. (Talking about targeting a bowed character).

I'm getting increasingly confused by something I thought was clear... Would you mind clarifying your point here? If I follow, you're saying that it is legit to target a bowed person with Duelist Training's duel because the duel is the resolution of the action, not the bowing. If that's so, that fits with the way I'd expect (hope) the card works.

7 minutes ago, agarrett said:

I'm getting increasingly confused by something I thought was clear... Would you mind clarifying your point here? If I follow, you're saying that it is legit to target a bowed person with Duelist Training's duel because the duel is the resolution of the action, not the bowing. If that's so, that fits with the way I'd expect (hope) the card works.

I think that it may work that way, anything after the '-' (dash), from what I understand is resolution of the action. An additional effect of resolution would be to bow the loser. Everybody here is assuming that the loser is the targeted bowed guy, what happens if the loser is the unbowed guy. Then the action would be perfectly legal!. You may use an action even when bowed, so would that not allow the initiator of the duel to start the duel, when bowed, in case he loses?

So I think that you could use this against somebody bowed, because resolution includes starting a duel + bowing loser.

3 minutes ago, Isawa Tasatu said:

I think that it may work that way, anything after the '-' (dash), from what I understand is resolution of the action. An additional effect of resolution would be to bow the loser. Everybody here is assuming that the loser is the targeted bowed guy, what happens if the loser is the unbowed guy. Then the action would be perfectly legal!. You may use an action even when bowed, so would that not allow the initiator of the duel to start the duel, when bowed, in case he loses?

So I think that you could use this against somebody bowed, because resolution includes starting a duel + bowing loser.

But what if both characters were bowed? Then we're back to whether the skill modifiers applied during a duel are enough of a change.

2 minutes ago, Khudzlin said:

But what if both characters were bowed? Then we're back to whether the skill modifiers applied during a duel are enough of a change.

The more import question is whether the 'duel' counts as an effect (I think so), because that is the effect of the card. Create a duel between characters + bow loser.Unless there is something preventing the duel and the bowing, the target is valid....

Edit: A second actions effect changing the effect of the original duel, I don`t believe would create a legal target though.... (but would need clarification)

Quote

Duelist Training:

Action: While this character is participating in a conflict, choose a participating character controlled by your opponent – challenge that character to a duel. Instead of giving honor for this duel's bid, a player may choose and discard the required number of cards from hand. Bow the loser of the duel.

" While this character is participating in a conflict": The character with Duelist Training is not a "target" and is thus allowed to be in a bowed state to initiate this ability as there is no restriction preventing such on the card nor in the rules.

"choose a participating character controlled by your opponent" - Choosing is targeting (RRG p.15-16) and is restricted by the targeting rules, which says the target(s) must be able to be affected by the resolution of the action. Unfortunately, "resolution", nor "affected" are defined in the rules, so we don't know what constitutes being affected by the resolution of the action. The last sentence of the action above says "Bow the loser of the duel.". This is the "affect" of the "resolution" of this action, IMHO, and is what prevents targeting a bowed character with the action.

The only argument I see is whether the "modification" of skill values during the duel constitutes being affected by the duel itself. I don't see this as being affected by the resolution of the duel, so I would argue that it does not.

1 hour ago, Totengraber said:

" While this character is participating in a conflict": The character with Duelist Training is not a "target" and is thus allowed to be in a bowed state to initiate this ability as there is no restriction preventing such on the card nor in the rules.

"choose a participating character controlled by your opponent" - Choosing is targeting (RRG p.15-16) and is restricted by the targeting rules, which says the target(s) must be able to be affected by the resolution of the action. Unfortunately, "resolution", nor "affected" are defined in the rules, so we don't know what constitutes being affected by the resolution of the action. The last sentence of the action above says "Bow the loser of the duel.". This is the "affect" of the "resolution" of this action, IMHO, and is what prevents targeting a bowed character with the action.

The only argument I see is whether the "modification" of skill values during the duel constitutes being affected by the duel itself. I don't see this as being affected by the resolution of the duel, so I would argue that it does not.

Since the action is from the character I can see that it would not count as targeting that character only the second so in this case a bowed initiator would have no effect on restrictions.

Going back to dueling/challenge.

Quote

D.1. Duel beg ins
A duel is initiated by the successful resolution of any action ability that challenges another character to a duel. When such
an ability resolves, this timing window opens. This step formalizes the beginning of the duel

Duels pg 23. rules reference

Its not resolution of a duel... its resolution of an action that restricts targetting. Resolution of the action is to create a duel between the 2 characters. With an additional effect of bowing the loser after such challenge has finished.

Thus you may target somebody bowed as long as he can be challenged. regardless of the additional effect bowed.

2 minutes ago, Isawa Tasatu said:

Going back to dueling/challenge.

Duels pg 23. rules reference

Its not resolution of a duel... its resolution of an action that restricts targetting. Resolution of the action is to create a duel between the 2 characters. With an additional effect of bowing the loser after such challenge has finished.

Thus you may target somebody bowed as long as he can be challenged. regardless of the additional effect bowed.

Good catch! I had not noticed this!

The action on Duelist Training has already resolved (in fact, it must ) before the duel even begins!

So, the " Instead of giving honor for this duel's bid, a player may choose and discard the required number of cards from hand." replaces step D.5 of the duel sequence and the "Bow the loser of the duel." happens even after D.9 and after the Duelist Training action has resolved, making that sentence inconsequential to the targeting requirements.

So, the question still remains: Will the duel technically affect the bowed target? If not, then they are not a valid target.

Indeed, clarification is needed.

43 minutes ago, Totengraber said:

So, the question still remains: Will the duel technically affect the bowed target? If not, then they are not a valid target.

Indeed, clarification is needed.

I agree a nice clarification would be good.

But I don't see how participating in a duel would not create an affect on the bowed character. Yes losing the duel would not affect the characters bowed state, but the character was affected by being 'forced' to participate in a duel.

32 minutes ago, Isawa Tasatu said:

I agree a nice clarification would be good.

But I don't see how participating in a duel would not create an affect on the bowed character. Yes losing the duel would not affect the characters bowed state, but the character was affected by being 'forced' to participate in a duel.

To put it mildly! After all, if participating in a duel is not an effect on the challenged character, what duels would work?

I agree with what Tasatu said. I gave it a read over, and I think being bowed does not restrict targeting.

In the RR the part that restricts targeting says "A character is not a valid target if the resolution of the ability would not effect it - ie Action: target a character - bow that character."

I compare this to the wording in duelist training which is "target a character, challenge them to a duel." It then goes on to say how you can pay your bid with cards, and then adds "bow the loser." I don't think this ties the bowing effect to the targeting. I think the only restriction is that the character can be challenged.

As for the other element of this discussion - does the action have the potential to effect the game state. If the target of the duel is bowed, and the challenger is bowed, i think we could still say it has the potential to effect the game state. I think it is reasonable to say that honor dials, number of cards in hand, and honor count of both players are included in the game state, and can be changed through this action. In fact some already consider the threat of the duels resolution secondary to the importance of changing honor dials, or honor counts of the players.

I don't think the temporary stat change of entering a duel and adding the honor bid counts as a change in game state, but I don't think that is needed. The justification that honor dials, honor counts, and other elements of the game state can potentially change is enough. The potential is all that is needed.

If there was a card that said "Action target a character, you may bow that character." I must obviously target a character that can bow both to be a valid target, and to potentially cause a change in the game state - but I don't have to cause a change in the game state, I can elect (may) to not change the game state and I would have still completed a legal action.

2 hours ago, shosuko said:

I agree with what Tasatu said. I gave it a read over, and I think being bowed does not restrict targeting.

In the RR the part that restricts targeting says "A character is not a valid target if the resolution of the ability would not effect it - ie Action: target a character - bow that character."

I compare this to the wording in duelist training which is "target a character, challenge them to a duel." It then goes on to say how you can pay your bid with cards, and then adds "bow the loser." I don't think this ties the bowing effect to the targeting. I think the only restriction is that the character can be challenged.

I now concede this debate thanks to @Isawa Tasatu and @shosuko with their excellent research and explanations of their points. I do believe you may, in fact, target a bowed character with Duelist Training's action.

Thanks to the both of you for the discussion!

Now watch, some developer will come and clarify that you cannot do that very thing!