So, I realized a few things.

First, Wraiths finally looks like the kind of unit you might want to put Ankaur Maro's cavalry upgrade into. The Death Knights would be horrible, as they're high defense, high points, low wounds. This means that an upgrade that eats away at their wounds is terrible. However, Wraiths are low defense, low points, high(er) wounds, so eating away at their wounds is great. And they're a lot faster and more maneuverable than Reanimates, so there's a pretty strong benefit to putting him in there instead of just dumping him into some Reanimates.

Second, I realized that Wraiths do not have a Champion upgrade slot. This made me very sad, given the first realization.

Third, I realized that they have two Unique upgrade cards shown on the image. These images aren't always accurate or final, but if they do have a second unique upgrade, it might add a Champion slot. There's certainly precedent for an upgrade that does nothing but convert to a different upgrade slot (like Fallen Hero) and it would sort-of make sense from a design perspective if they wanted to prevent you from taking Undying Hate and Ankaur Maro in the same unit. Right now, the cheapest you can field in-unit Maro is 55 points, giving him 26 (regenerating) wounds to chew through (or if you're running solo Ardus, 46 points with 18 wounds). If Wraiths do get an upgrade like this, you can run him at 37 points (plus whatever that upgrade costs, but I can't see it being more than 3ish points) with 9 wounds to chew through, or 44 points (plus upgrade cost) with 13 wounds. And all that at much more movement speed to be exactly where he wants to be.

Thoughts?

that is my wish as well, ankaur maro in a unit of wraiths.

"Ride with the Damned" or something to add a Champion slot.

we shall have to wait and see.

I imagine that the second unique upgrade will add the 'equipment' slot since they come with an equipment upgrade card.

Fluff/lore doesn't always supersede rules, but my guess is you won't ever see a champion upgrade for Wraiths unless they come out with a wraith specific champion. Reason being that fluff-wise Maro shouldn't be able to ghost through other units. Rules and game balance wise, imagine what you could do if Ardus and his wraiths could float through your unit and set of for a rear charge.

I agree with the initial points that Maro and wraiths seem made for each other in terms of using Maro's ability. I just don't see it happening though.

6 minutes ago, Elliphino said:

Rules and game balance wise, imagine what you could do if Ardus and his wraiths could float through your unit and set of for a rear charge.

Ardus doesn't have a cavalry figure upgrade. That would be scary.

3 hours ago, Zetan said:

So, I realized a few things.

First, Wraiths finally looks like the kind of unit you might want to put Ankaur Maro's cavalry upgrade into. The Death Knights would be horrible, as they're high defense, high points, low wounds. This means that an upgrade that eats away at their wounds is terrible. However, Wraiths are low defense, low points, high(er) wounds, so eating away at their wounds is great. And they're a lot faster and more maneuverable than Reanimates, so there's a pretty strong benefit to putting him in there instead of just dumping him into some Reanimates.

Second, I realized that Wraiths do not have a Champion upgrade slot. This made me very sad, given the first realization.

Third, I realized that they have two Unique upgrade cards shown on the image. These images aren't always accurate or final, but if they do have a second unique upgrade, it might add a Champion slot. There's certainly precedent for an upgrade that does nothing but convert to a different upgrade slot (like Fallen Hero) and it would sort-of make sense from a design perspective if they wanted to prevent you from taking Undying Hate and Ankaur Maro in the same unit. Right now, the cheapest you can field in-unit Maro is 55 points, giving him 26 (regenerating) wounds to chew through (or if you're running solo Ardus, 46 points with 18 wounds). If Wraiths do get an upgrade like this, you can run him at 37 points (plus whatever that upgrade costs, but I can't see it being more than 3ish points) with 9 wounds to chew through, or 44 points (plus upgrade cost) with 13 wounds. And all that at much more movement speed to be exactly where he wants to be.

Thoughts?

Not going to lie, couldn't picture him as an upgrade in anything by a 2x2. I say that because it's low cost, and you said with 18 wounds, but what you're forgetting is as he's adding trays he's bring the units he's losing back at the end as reanimates reanimate themselves. If the runes go poorly you make lose two and not gain any. But then you choose to not add those trays that round or you suffer a couple reanimates and hope the next round evens you out a little. You can choose to not add trays and not lose the reanimate tray or lose it and keep going. They regenerate. That's perfect.

10 minutes ago, Curlycross said:

Not going to lie, couldn't picture him as an upgrade in anything by a 2x2. I say that because it's low cost, and you said with 18 wounds, but what you're forgetting is as he's adding trays he's bring the units he's losing back at the end as reanimates reanimate themselves. If the runes go poorly you make lose two and not gain any. But then you choose to not add those trays that round or you suffer a couple reanimates and hope the next round evens you out a little. You can choose to not add trays and not lose the reanimate tray or lose it and keep going. They regenerate. That's perfect.

Yeah, 2x2 Reanimates seems best, but with Ardus alone and 2x2 Reanimates with Ankaur, you've already spent 83 points. After that, you probably want a big upgrade-heavy unit of Reanimates for him to add ranks to, upgrades for Ardus so he's not a waste of points, as well as some support archers and/or a Lancer or two... there's just never enough room. At least not with the builds I've come up with. Maybe you've had more luck.

19 minutes ago, Zetan said:

Yeah, 2x2 Reanimates seems best, but with Ardus alone and 2x2 Reanimates with Ankaur, you've already spent 83 points. After that, you probably want a big upgrade-heavy unit of Reanimates for him to add ranks to, upgrades for Ardus so he's not a waste of points, as well as some support archers and/or a Lancer or two... there's just never enough room. At least not with the builds I've come up with. Maybe you've had more luck.

I last ran Ardus with some upgrades, 2x2 with ankaur, 3x3 with flcl, blighted vexillum, and necromancer. and a 2x1 of archers, I think next time I'd probably drop the flcl/blighted/necro do a different upgrade set in that and maybe run a 3x2 of those instead giving me more opportunity to build it up for fewer points, and then run a carrion lancer solo for blocking and maybe 2 2x1 archers. Gives me more options to add trays to and at the same time making it so I have more units to block while I run through and kill.

Edit: what I did run, worked well to clarify. I did lose my blighted and necromancer before They were even used once though. I want to try something else, just simply to not spend a lot of points on the units I'm adding so much to and give me either two archer sets or a carrion lancer to be on it's own, etc. maybe run support lancer instead of front line and then have a regular lancer for mortal and use ardus' ability to do the wounds. Something like that.

7 hours ago, Contrapulator said:

Ardus doesn't have a cavalry figure upgrade. That would be scary.

Hey, you're only proving my point that I'm often wrong about things

10 hours ago, Contrapulator said:

Ardus doesn't have a cavalry figure upgrade. That would be scary.

Hundreds of years of experience twirling those axes, and the bonehead never learned to ride a horse.

12 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

Hundreds of years of experience twirling those axes, and the bonehead never learned to ride a horse.

What I don't get is does he not have enough time to learn now? really?

Eventually I believe we will see barghests, and they'll hopefully be 3 hp, 1 armor like flesh rippers. This would be ideal for maro so far useless cav upgrade.

imo Maro will always be a useless cav upgrade unless they get a way to heal.
Hes ridiculous in a squad of reanimates because they just keep regening. Maro on his own or in cavalry has to be mindful of how fruitful his tray adding in, the 2x2 reanimates could care less.

37 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

imo Maro will always be a useless cav upgrade unless they get a way to heal.
Hes ridiculous in a squad of reanimates because they just keep regening. Maro on his own or in cavalry has to be mindful of how fruitful his tray adding in, the 2x2 reanimates could care less.

Only drawback to that configuration is I've had people rage at me for doing that

Proper flanks deal with it just fine since it pretty much makes you put all your efforts into making another 4x3 of reanimates a complete beast.

It is rather cheap though. Unless you have a strong flank and enough frontlines to keep the big unit busy you will be hard pressed beating it

On 9/8/2017 at 7:23 AM, Vineheart01 said:

Proper flanks deal with it just fine since it pretty much makes you put all your efforts into making another 4x3 of reanimates a complete beast.

It is rather cheap though. Unless you have a strong flank and enough frontlines to keep the big unit busy you will be hard pressed beating it

When I play against Daqan they like to bank two turns or so on inspiration buffing. So I turn my 2x1 archers into 2x2s and then buff any other infantry I have. Usually get 4-6 trays by the time they make contact with me.

I think the 2x2 Reanimates with Maro upgrade is the best Waiqar list right now, and maybe the list to beat overall. Part of that is the current meta of turtling and farming inspiration, and part of that is because of the round limitations and tournament scoring.

It has a number of advantages. First, it's relatively easy to deploy. You can park your Maro unit in the back of any deployment zone without fear of tangling up. He's probably going to bump and skill anyway. Also, it's a high priority target for your opponent that they probably wont be able to encounter because your huge unit will be sitting right in front. This makes them a great Bounty target.

Next, it wins the camping war. Your opponent HAS to engage YOU. Your reanimater list can sit in the back all day and build up trays that act as a point buffer, if your opponent isn't chewing up your trays quickly, they are basically put in a point deficit with a ticking clock, and your archers can typically ensure some casualties to tip the scale further. I haven't played enough against the Elves at this point though, maybe their ranged presence can force the action, but right now they seem like the weakest faction due to not having full access to their upgrades.

As I mentioned a bit above, they have an Objective advantage on Bounty. With smart wound allocation and favorable runes you can deny your opponent, at a minimum, 121 points. The other Objectives seem negligible at this point, as I haven't seen Break Their Defenses be very impactful to scoring, and with your MSUs of Archers and/or Lancers you should be able to secure the tokens near your deployment for Supply Raid. Demoralize may cause problems against some lists, but again at least you are forcing the action to you on your terms.

Now, of course savvy tacticians and terrain placement could throw a monkey wrench in any undead general's plans, but I'm having a tough time against this list, and I'm not seeing a lot of options against it. Mostly because of round limitations and tournament scoring.

I'd like to hear other thoughts on this, and hopefully come up with a counter

For example:

Ardus, Ancient Tech

2x2 Reanimates, Maro

3x2 Reanimates, Carrion Lancer... actually, you have a ton of options how to kit this out

2x1 Archers, Combat Ingenuity

1x1 Carrion Lancer

From here you have options... maybe another Lancer and more upgrades, maybe another 2x1 Archer. Flavor to taste

20 hours ago, Click5 said:

I think the 2x2 Reanimates with Maro upgrade is the best Waiqar list right now, and maybe the list to beat overall. Part of that is the current meta of turtling and farming inspiration, and part of that is because of the round limitations and tournament scoring.

It has a number of advantages. First, it's relatively easy to deploy. You can park your Maro unit in the back of any deployment zone without fear of tangling up. He's probably going to bump and skill anyway. Also, it's a high priority target for your opponent that they probably wont be able to encounter because your huge unit will be sitting right in front. This makes them a great Bounty target.

Next, it wins the camping war. Your opponent HAS to engage YOU. Your reanimater list can sit in the back all day and build up trays that act as a point buffer, if your opponent isn't chewing up your trays quickly, they are basically put in a point deficit with a ticking clock, and your archers can typically ensure some casualties to tip the scale further. I haven't played enough against the Elves at this point though, maybe their ranged presence can force the action, but right now they seem like the weakest faction due to not having full access to their upgrades.

As I mentioned a bit above, they have an Objective advantage on Bounty. With smart wound allocation and favorable runes you can deny your opponent, at a minimum, 121 points. The other Objectives seem negligible at this point, as I haven't seen Break Their Defenses be very impactful to scoring, and with your MSUs of Archers and/or Lancers you should be able to secure the tokens near your deployment for Supply Raid. Demoralize may cause problems against some lists, but again at least you are forcing the action to you on your terms.

Now, of course savvy tacticians and terrain placement could throw a monkey wrench in any undead general's plans, but I'm having a tough time against this list, and I'm not seeing a lot of options against it. Mostly because of round limitations and tournament scoring.

I'd like to hear other thoughts on this, and hopefully come up with a counter

For example:

Ardus, Ancient Tech

2x2 Reanimates, Maro

3x2 Reanimates, Carrion Lancer... actually, you have a ton of options how to kit this out

2x1 Archers, Combat Ingenuity

1x1 Carrion Lancer

From here you have options... maybe another Lancer and more upgrades, maybe another 2x1 Archer. Flavor to taste

This feels like it could use its own thread under tactics. I'm very curious to find Daqan counters to this list. So used to seeing people complain Daqan is steamrolling.. but this seems pretty solid.

This is how I'd flesh out the list --

Points: 200/200

Ardus Ix Erebus
# of Trays: 1 ( 37 points)
- Ancient Technique ( 2 points)
= 39 total unit cost
Reanimates
# of Trays: 4 ( 26 points)
- Ankaur Maro ( 20 points)
= 46 total unit cost
Reanimates
# of Trays: 6 ( 35 points)
- File Leader ( 6 points)
- Front Line Carrion Lancer ( 5 points)
- Blighted Vexillum Bearer ( 3 points)
- Lingering Dead ( 3 points)
= 52 total unit cost
Reanimate Archers
# of Trays: 2 ( 18 points)
- Combat Ingenuity ( 6 points)
= 24 total unit cost
Reanimate Archers
# of Trays: 2 ( 18 points)
- Combat Ingenuity ( 6 points)
= 24 total unit cost
Carrion Lancer
# of Trays: 1 ( 15 points)
= 15 total unit cost

I really like the File Leader / Frontline CL / Vexillum Bearer combo. Makes them hardy against charges.

19 minutes ago, Glucose98 said:

This feels like it could use its own thread under tactics. I'm very curious to find Daqan counters to this list. So used to seeing people complain Daqan is steamrolling.. but this seems pretty solid.

This is how I'd flesh out the list --

Points: 200/200

Ardus Ix Erebus
# of Trays: 1 ( 37 points)
- Ancient Technique ( 2 points)
= 39 total unit cost
Reanimates
# of Trays: 4 ( 26 points)
- Ankaur Maro ( 20 points)
= 46 total unit cost
Reanimates
# of Trays: 6 ( 35 points)
- File Leader ( 6 points)
- Front Line Carrion Lancer ( 5 points)
- Blighted Vexillum Bearer ( 3 points)
- Lingering Dead ( 3 points)
= 52 total unit cost
Reanimate Archers
# of Trays: 2 ( 18 points)
- Combat Ingenuity ( 6 points)
= 24 total unit cost
Reanimate Archers
# of Trays: 2 ( 18 points)
- Combat Ingenuity ( 6 points)
= 24 total unit cost
Carrion Lancer
# of Trays: 1 ( 15 points)
= 15 total unit cost

I really like the File Leader / Frontline CL / Vexillum Bearer combo. Makes them hardy against charges.

I've been thinking about making a separate thread actually, since it didn't seem like anyone was looking at this post hah. Just might do that still

Your list is exactly what I would run, with a minor change to the 6 tray Reanimate unit. There's a bit of upgrade value I've been theorizing about lately that I'm not entirely sure I want to talk about before Worlds

A second Carrion Lancer is a valid change though, if only for an extra objective scorer that is a bit tough to take down (or at least not worth priority targeting)