Ok, so a local tournament is coming up and as normal I can't decide what i want to use.

To help me figure it out I'll be doing a bit of theory crafting and a bit of playtesting leading up to the tournament on the 1st of October. Rather than keeping this to myself I thought it might be fun/useful to make a record of the process here, that way I can get feedback from the player-base here AND it might help some newer players looking at what to take to their first tournament.

So the first thing I'm going to consider is the local meta. Other than Heroes of the Aturi Cluster, X-wing hasn't been played at the store's regular gaming nights for a few months, so I'm going to have to go back to the most recent tournament (about 9 months ago) to try and see what the meta might be.

The last tournament was won by a classic TIE swarm, and runners up where a double HLC TIE defender list and a decimator with mini-swarm - so we seem to be pretty far off the forum/worlds meta around here. We also have a very imperial dominant meta, with roughly half the list last time being imperial, and several Imperial only players in the local group.

Now what does all that mean for me? Well I player either Scum or Rebel, so I'm likely to be in the minority to some degree, and if the previous tournament is anything to go by I'm going to have to deal with both swarms and health-sink large bases.

So now its time to start theory-crafting a few lists to see what I fancy flying. I've got access to at least 1 of everything in the Rebel and Scum armouries, so I'm a little spoilt for choice, and I have some definite favourites and "go-to" ships. Now I've also been told that even if its out in time Guns For Hire won't be legal for this tournament. This means two things for my list building; first, i don't have to worry about last moment rebuilds, second, i won't be flying my Starvipers or Kihraxz. In fact, I've flown alot of Scum in the last few months so I'm going to look to my Rebels first.

Ok, confession time, I'm a Shadows of the Empire fan - so I'm a Dash Rendar/Outrider fan. so my first list is a little bit of old faithful with a little bit of something new (and if you are following another thread here, this will be familiar);

Dash Rendar (36), Outrider(5), Mangler Cannon(4), Veteran Instincts (1), Rey(2)

Blue Squadron Pathfinder (23), Pivot Wing (0), Fire Control System (2)

Blue Squadron Pathfinder (23), Pivot Wing (0), Fire Control System (2)

total - 98pts

List two is a case of "I want to fly something new" and if I'm honest, a little off-the wall;

Wookiee Liberator (26), Veteran Instincts (1), Wookiee Commandos (1)

Lowhhrick (28), Expertise (4), Jyn(2)

Wullffwarro (30), Veteran Instincts (1), Rey(2), Hull upgrade(3)

total - 98pts

my third list for testing will be an update of my old double Tala/Horton/Keyan list that i took to the last two tournaments. But i think that's quite enough of a wall of text for today

ok, so list three has been theory crafted, a re-hash of my old double Tala squadron, Blaster turret Horton Salm, HLC Keyan Farlander list;

Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)

Horton Salm (25), Twin-laser Turret (6), R2-D6 (1), Veteran Instincts (1), Vectored thrusters (2)

Ello Asty (30), Expertise (4), R2-D2 (4), Primed Thrusters(1), Vectored thrusters (2)

total cost: 100pts

and whilst I was looking for a replacement for Keyan, this list sort of materialised;

Tala Squadron Pilot (13)

Tala Squadron Pilot (13)

Shara Bay (28), Alliance Overhaul (0), Adaptability (0), Weapons Engineer(3), Targeting Astromech (2), Vectored Thrusters (2)

Nora Wexley (29), Alliance Overhaul (0), Expertise (4), Tail Gunner (2), R2 astromech (1), Vectored thrusters (2)

total - 99pts

So my next step is to get these lists on the table and see how they fly. once I've flown them a couple of times each I'll cut down to one list and then fine tune it.

Of course at this stage input is welcome.

ok, after kicking ideas around on the Double Lancer thread it's given me a taste for double large-base builds - so I've thrown another possible list together - double YT2400's

The Outrider Special

Dash Rendar (36), Outrider (5), VI(1), Rey(2), Smuggling Compartment (0), Countermeasures (3), Scavenger Crane(2)

Leebo (34), Determination (1), Jan Ors (2), Engine Upgrade (4)

Total - 98pts

oh, and in case anyone was wondering when I'd actually get any of this theory onto the table, I've got a couple of practice games booked in for this week

I faced a horrible Dash build the other day, it had a mangler cannon and Bistan crew so it was pumping out double crits. Thinking outside the norm really catches people off guard!

23 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

I faced a horrible Dash build the other day, it had a mangler cannon and Bistan crew so it was pumping out double crits. Thinking outside the norm really catches people off guard!

yeh I've been a fan of ManglerDash since the Mangler cannon came out. I'd considered Bistan, but i switched to Rey as my go-to Dash crew as my green dice tend to need to focus tokens help - now if you could get Mangler, Bistan, and Mercenary Co-pilot on the ship that could be interesting

Are you missing something on your first list?

Dash Rendar (36), Outrider(2), Mangler Cannon(4), Veteran Instincts (1), Rey(2)

Blue Squadron Pathfinder (23), Pivot Wing (0), Fire Control System (2)

Blue Squadron Pathfinder (23), Pivot Wing (0), Fire Control System (2)

I get that to be 95 points... Maybe a missle on Dash? Given that you'll see swarms and some high health stuff, I'd put Lone Wolf on Dash instead of VI. You can fly the other two outside range 2 and Dash can still do what he does best, with a soft target lock and better defense. Go with what you love to fly! And since this is your first list, I'd do this one.

27 minutes ago, jonnyd said:

Are you missing something on your first list?

Dash Rendar (36), Outrider(2), Mangler Cannon(4), Veteran Instincts (1), Rey(2)

Blue Squadron Pathfinder (23), Pivot Wing (0), Fire Control System (2)

Blue Squadron Pathfinder (23), Pivot Wing (0), Fire Control System (2)

I get that to be 95 points... Maybe a missle on Dash? Given that you'll see swarms and some high health stuff, I'd put Lone Wolf on Dash instead of VI. You can fly the other two outside range 2 and Dash can still do what he does best, with a soft target lock and better defense. Go with what you love to fly! And since this is your first list, I'd do this one.

Hi, my squad builder maths that list at 98pts - and that would be because the Outrider title costs 5pts not 2! Good spot! I'll edit the post to fix it.

Ok so I finally got some table time in last night. I flew the same list against two different opponents and lists.

Here is what I flew;

Dash Rendar (36), Outrider(5), Mangler Cannon(4), Veteran Instincts (1), Rey(2)

Blue Squadron Pathfinder (23), Pivot Wing (0), Fire Control System (2)

Blue Squadron Pathfinder (23), Pivot Wing (0), Fire Control System (2)

total - 98pts

Game 1 - I flew against one of my HotAC wingmen Matt and his Imperial aces. He brought Carnor Jax, Soontier Fel, and Countess Ryad. We ended up with all asteroids, and all of them in the middle of the table. I had initiative and deployed with a U-wing on each flank and dash in the center. Matt's entire squadron was deployed opposite my right hand U-wing for an initial joust. I deliberately went slowly for the first turn to bank a focus on Rey and keep the jousted U-wing out of range while the left hand U made full speed to get into the fight. Turn two was basically the deciding point of this game, Jax and Dash met in the middle of the table and after a triple crit from Dash and a triple blank from Jax major hull breach and Direct hit saw Jax off the table before he could do anything. At this point it became a race between Soontier and Dash to see if Fel could kill a U-wing before Dash finished Soontier off, whilst Ryad slowly chipped away the other U-wing. Two turns of triple crits later and Fel was gone, but not before he had finished off a U-wing. Ryad finished off the other U-wing and that was time. As we were having fun we decided to play on and this is where I learnt an important weakness of this list x7 defenders. With the mangler cannon I just couldn't push damage through the token stack on Ryad and she eventually killed Dash.

Game 2 - this game I'd asked for as I knew it was going to be tough. A good friend of mine (Andy) has been playing the same list since Imperial Aces, and as a result he's rather good with it. It consists of Rexlar Brath with Heavy Laser Cannon and outmanoeuvre, Dark Curse, and Carnor Jax with hull and shield upgrade. I followed the same deployment as last time and Andy went straight down one flank the same as Matt had the previous game, but oh boy was the result different. With Dark Curse and Carnor Jax in play Rey was essentially useless for most of the game, and Dash got quickly focus fired off the table. By the 30 minute mark I'd been comprehensively tabled, for no kills in return. Owch. That being said I'd arranged this game as I knew it would be tough to beat Andy with his practiced list.

So what have I learnt from this? Well first off Fire Control System was a complete waste of points in both games, the U-wings simply couldn't keep the ship they had target locked in arc. The second thing is without focus tokens I had 0 ability to modify my defense dice, and that cost me Dash in the second game. I'll keep thinking on this over the weekend before I decide if I'm going to change anything about the list, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.

IMHO, I don't think you are getting enough out of VetInst and the Bid, not that its a bad Idea, given is sounds like you have a lot of PS 8-9 imps in your meta. My suggestions for this list: I agree with the Lone Wolf on Dash, also dropping to Leebo at that point may be worth the points. You are probably correct on the FCS and any number of crew options would likely better; Jyn, Jan, IntelAgent, Zeb.... and then use collision detector. I would set-up those U's together so they can more easily focus fire and set uo a wall to block with to set up good Dash shots. My two cents.....

57 minutes ago, Surak said:

U-wings simply couldn't keep the ship they had target locked in arc

This is something I want to stress to folks who put a U-Wing on the table. People assume the default system for the U-Wing, and I'm not sure what it actually should be, but you're hardly ever going to make use of that TL you got from FCS.

I'm starting to agree that the bid isn't worth it, but VI did allow me to pilot skill kill Jax and shoot before Brath, so I'm not quite ready to right it off just yet.

as for Lone Wolf, i think it would have triggered once, maybe twice, across both games (during the time limit). With three large bases its very difficult to keep them far enough apart to get it to trigger.

for the U's I'm now thinking of dropping FCS for Collision Detector and taking Wookiee Commandos as a crew to give them some token-less dice mods. I'm also going to try Smuggling Compartments on Dash with glitterstimm and maybe countermeasures if i have the points.

Jan is definitely a crew I'm now considering, but I want to have a look through my rebel crew again to see if anything else jumps out at me.

Have you thought about using B-Wings instead of the U's?

FCS would be very useful on them, they can keep their target in arc easier and if you want you can add cheap crew.

On 15/09/2017 at 4:15 PM, BCooper85 said:

Have you thought about using B-Wings instead of the U's?

FCS would be very useful on them, they can keep their target in arc easier and if you want you can add cheap crew.

I had thought about using B-wings, but as I've used them in all my tournament lists so far I deliberately am trying not to use them.

Also, having now had them in the table it was actually quite fun to fly three large bases (that aren't jumpmasters) andcit was certainly something that the others at the store hadn't expected to see

ok so here is my first revision of this list;

Dash Rendar (36), Outrider(5), Mangler Cannon(4), Veteran Instincts (1), Bistan(2)

Blue Squadron Pathfinder (23), Pivot Wing (0),Collision Detector (0), Anti-Pursuit Lasers (2) Wookiee Commandos (1)

Blue Squadron Pathfinder (23), Pivot Wing (0), Anti-Pursuit Lasers (2) Wookiee Commandos (1)

total - 100pts

so I've decided to give up the initiative bid to get some non-token dependant dice mods, and considering how much bumping the U's did in both games the APL's seemed like a good use of the points that we're on the FCS's. I also only have one Collision Detector in the list as i only have one copy of the card.

Rey for Bistan was simply because double crits out of a Mangler turret was too funny not to pass up, so I'm willing to consider other options in this slot.

16 minutes ago, Surak said:

ok so here is my first revision of this list;

Dash Rendar (36), Outrider(5), Mangler Cannon(4), Veteran Instincts (1), Bistan(2)

Blue Squadron Pathfinder (23), Pivot Wing (0),Collision Detector (0), Anti-Pursuit Lasers (2) Wookiee Commandos (1)

Blue Squadron Pathfinder (23), Pivot Wing (0), Anti-Pursuit Lasers (2) Wookiee Commandos (1)

total - 100pts

so I've decided to give up the initiative bid to get some non-token dependant dice mods, and considering how much bumping the U's did in both games the APL's seemed like a good use of the points that we're on the FCS's. I also only have one Collision Detector in the list as i only have one copy of the card.

Rey for Bistan was simply because double crits out of a Mangler turret was too funny not to pass up, so I'm willing to consider other options in this slot.

Overall, I like the changes. My biggest concern now is that Rey is way more useful, offence and Defence, than the extra crit conversion. If you don't use the banked focus you can always put it back, but as this is your heavy-hitter I would suggest that firing TL and Focus is way more important than pushing an extra crit

13 minutes ago, JSwindy said:

Overall, I like the changes. My biggest concern now is that Rey is way more useful, offence and Defence, than the extra crit conversion. If you don't use the banked focus you can always put it back, but as this is your heavy-hitter I would suggest that firing TL and Focus is way more important than pushing an extra crit

normally I'd absolutely agree with you on Rey over Bistan, but almost every Imperial list I've seen (and we are an imperial majority venue) seems to have Carnor Jax and/or Dark Curse running around to kill focus tokens - so I was looking for some sort of 2pt dice mod/damage boost, as i said, I'll happily consider other suggestions in that slot at this stage

24 minutes ago, Surak said:

normally I'd absolutely agree with you on Rey over Bistan, but almost every Imperial list I've seen (and we are an imperial majority venue) seems to have Carnor Jax and/or Dark Curse running around to kill focus tokens - so I was looking for some sort of 2pt dice mod/damage boost, as i said, I'll happily consider other suggestions in that slot at this stage

I see your issue. Personally I would still use Rey and just focus down Carnor or Dark Curse first. Maybe Han might be a better option, or Intel agent, or Bohdi. IDK

so with just over a week to go until the tournament, and my available testing time rapidly reducing, I've decided not to bother trying to test any of my other lists and focus on the UUdash list.

so after a bit of thought this is the list I'm going to try;

Dash Rendar (36), Outrider(5), Mangler Cannon(4), Veteran Instincts (1), Rey(2)

Blue Squadron Pathfinder (23), Pivot Wing (0),Collision Detector (0), Anti-Pursuit Lasers (2) Wookiee Commandos (1)

Blue Squadron Pathfinder (23), Pivot Wing (0), Collision Detector (0), Anti-Pursuit Lasers (2) Wookiee Commandos (1)

total - 100pts

I'm still not totally convinced by Rey, but at the same time I'm struggling to come up with a better 2pt crew option - one thing i did consider is dropping Rey for Hera and then upgrading one of the U-wings to Heff Tobber but I'm not convinced the +1ps and ability are worth it.

I think it looks solid the way it is. I wouldn't fuss too much about shuffling upgrades around because with all of those changes you may end up forgetting something. This way your list has symmetrical U wings, and Dash looks quite balanced. Just keep practicing and maybe take some photos! It would be great to discuss some of your different match-ups with different deployment strategies and engagement tactics!

11 minutes ago, Gersun said:

I think it looks solid the way it is. I wouldn't fuss too much about shuffling upgrades around because with all of those changes you may end up forgetting something. This way your list has symmetrical U wings, and Dash looks quite balanced. Just keep practicing and maybe take some photos! It would be great to discuss some of your different match-ups with different deployment strategies and engagement tactics!

solid advice, I do have a habit of trying to constantly tweak builds until they are "perfect" - which of course is impossible

I'll see what i can do on the photo front, I've not got any forum space left so I'd have to find some other way of doing it - I'm also trying to work out if I can setup some sort of stream from the actual tournament, the venue is willing but I'm not sure I have the equipment or time to get it together at short notice

Ok, so it's the morning of the tournament. I've got about an hour and a half before I need to be at the venue (plenty of time), so time for a light breakfast and a casual drive in (picking up one of the other attendees on the way, Matt from test game 1 a few posts ago).

I'm going to try and post a few updates throughout the day depending on how the rounds are spaced. At the very least I'll post a lunchtime update.

Here we go......

game 1 down, a 100-12 victory, only one u-wing down to half points, ran against palp shuttle, vader, inquisitor, wompa

Ok, the tournament is done. I've had a fantastic day and played four good opponents who were not only a challenge to fly against, but who made it fun to play (win or loose).

In the end I went 2-2, and came 4th out of the 10 players (and my two losses came at the hands of the eventual 1st and 2nd place)

I'll do a proper break down of my games later, but the top three list were;

1st - Rebel - Nym, TLT, bomber generator and Origjnal Chewi, Lando crew, C3P0, Wired, evade title

2nd - Scum - Emon, Bomblet generator, 2x Concord Dawn Aces, title, fearlessness, autothrusters

3rd - Rebel - Thane Kyrell, title, m9g8, vectored thrusters, 3x T-65 rookie pilots with R2 astromech and integrated astromech

The top Imperial list was quite low down the order (7th I think) with an Upsilon shuttle and two TIE FO's (didn't meet this list so I didn't get chance to make a note of it), there was also a TIE swarm that came 10th and a palp aces list that came 9th (I fought this one)

Everyone seemed to have fun, and we have had a fairly major shift in local meta - as we have been an Imperial aces dominated venue until today

More later...

writers note - all left and right directions are going to be from my perspective to try and keep things simple -

Game one, against our venue's resident net-lister (as in he will just find a successful internet list and use it), and he's running Palp Aces (palp in an omicron group lambda, inquisitor with title, Vader with A Score to settle, and Wompa). He took initiative and I setup in the left hand corner of my deployment zone, with the two U-wings nearest the table edge and Dash about 1/3 of the way in to skirt the edge of the sense asteroid field in the middle. To my surprise, he sets everything up directly opposite me, sets a debt to pay on Dash, and goes for straight up head on attack (5 straights on the fighters, and 0 on the shuttle), my first move was a 2 straight giving us a turn one exchange of fire - this is where it became obvious he didn't know his list, as he didn't realise Dash got a benefit from "A debt to pay" - he thought he got the benefit of both cards - Dash and Wompa engaged head on in the asteroids, Dash taking a hull through shields from Wompa's ability and me wiffing dash's attack. On the flank the inquisitor and Vader took a shield off of each U-wing, and in return the Wookiee powered U-boats took all of the imperial shields down. Next round we closed to point blank range, wompa got taken off the table due to a triple grit from Dash and a triple blank from wompa. The U-wings and imperial aces chipped away at each other again, with no significant damage to vader, but the inquisitor lost a hull and the U-wings lost a shield each. Turn three was a little strange, Dash closed in on Vader, the U-wings both dead-stopped right in front of the TIEs, the shuttle flew straight at the u-wings, the inquisitor flew into both U-wings and promptly exploded from anti-pursuit lasers, and vader crashed into 1 U-wing but took no damage. In the shooting phase Vader took another shield of a U-wing (leaving both on 1 shield) and Dash put a triple crit onto Vader (thanks to Mangler and Debt to pay) which ended the dark lord with a direct hit and major explosion. The U-wings managed to take all the shields off the shuttle. Turn four, the shuttle is still coming straight at the u-wings, and Dash now starts chipping away at its health, whilst moving into a position to block it up against the table edge. By the end of the turn, the shuttle is down to 2 hull and one of the U-wings has lost all of its shields. Turn 5, despite moving before the U-wings, the lambda manages to crash into both of them, taking its last two hit points from the anti-pursuit lasers.

as an opening game, its was a pretty good start. The U-wings managed to do the lions share of my damage, and got two kills by APL. However, I'm certain that if my opponent had been a little more familiar with his list I'd have had a much tougher time. In any case, I wasn't going to turn down a 100-12 win on my first game.

more later...

game 2, against the eventual 2nd place Kyle with his Emon (bomblet, Cad Bane) and 2 Concord dawn aces (title, fearlessness, autothrusters)

didn't matter as much, but Kyle ended up with initiative. we had three asteroids and three debris this time, and they all ended up in a tight field in the mid-table, leaving nice corridors for the u-wings on both the left and right flanks.

I went for the left flank again (it worked last time) and setup U, U, Dash in that order from the left hand edge of the table, I pushed the U-wing closest to the table edge as far forward as i could on deployment, and kept the other one and dash touching the boss edge to give me a staggered line. Kyle deployed directly opposite, with the protectorate fighters closest to the table and Emon more towards the centre.

due to the speed of this game (it was decided about 10 seconds before time was called) I didn't have time to make full notes for this game, so here is an edited highlights rather than a turn-by-turn.

for the first two turns i slow-rolled in to give me time to focus-stack Rey, but once Kyle realised he went maximum attack with the protectorates on the U-wings. I struggled to get damage through the autothruster+title combo on the protectorates all game, but eventually managed to wear them down so Dash could snipe the last one, but it cost me both U-wings. Dash and Emon had traded damage consistently all game, but thanks to a couple of well placed bomblets, dash got the worst of the trade and was down to 2 hull when i dropped the last protectorate. At that point Emon still had 1 shield left so I took the desperate step of keeping so close to Emon that he couldn't bomb me with risking damage himself, whilst refusing his rear arc by either deliberately bumping or barrel-rolling at point blank range. Eventually through my luck ran out before the clock did, and I'd only managed to drop Emons shields when a mis-play on my part left me just in range of a bomblet and Dash was done. The TO called time literally seconds after the dice stopped rolling.

So a 54-100 loss for me this time, but a massively fun game for both of us, Kyle admitted afterwards that predicting where i was going on any given turn was difficult as I "flew like a psychopath". I think I'll take that as a complement.

more later....