My understanding of the order of events in this game is roll first, interpret and describe after. In the case of certain Force Powers (the one I have specifically in mind is the "mind trick" control upgrade of Influence), the effectiveness is determined both by using a pip, and succeeding in an opposed check. Is the intended target, and nature (upgrade) of the Power fluid, dependent upon the availability of force pips? Or is the precise intended use decided and declared from the outset, prior to the rolls?

What if...

• the subject is out of range, and there are not enough pips generated to both reach the target, and influence it? Obviously the power does not work as intended, but can the force-user then choose to influence a different (closer) target, instead? Perhaps just to inflict strain (a distinct use of the same power)? Should the Force Die be rolled first, and separately from the opposed check?
• there are two targets, but not enough pips are rolled to reach and influence both? Can you still select a single target to influence? Or do you need to declare your intention to influence both, and the check fizzles if enough pips are not generated?
• you fail to generate enough pips to utilize a particular Power, period? Can the force pips be used to drive a different Force Power entirely, that can be successfully activated?

I have my suspicions, but I could not find the answers to these specific inquiries, in book or thread. Thanks!

You declare you're using a certain power and roll the dice. Exactly how you choose to use that power is determined after the dice are rolled. You cannot use a different power with the roll you've made.

9 hours ago, Edgehawk said:

My understanding of the order of events in this game is roll first, interpret and describe after. In the case of certain Force Powers (the one I have specifically in mind is the "mind trick" control upgrade of Influence), the effectiveness is determined both by using a pip, and succeeding in an opposed check. Is the intended target, and nature (upgrade) of the Power fluid, dependent upon the availability of force pips? Or is the precise intended use decided and declared from the outset, prior to the rolls?

What if...

• the subject is out of range, and there are not enough pips generated to both reach the target, and influence it? Obviously the power does not work as intended, but can the force-user then choose to influence a different (closer) target, instead? Perhaps just to inflict strain (a distinct use of the same power)? Should the Force Die be rolled first, and separately from the opposed check?
• there are two targets, but not enough pips are rolled to reach and influence both? Can you still select a single target to influence? Or do you need to declare your intention to influence both, and the check fizzles if enough pips are not generated?
• you fail to generate enough pips to utilize a particular Power, period? Can the force pips be used to drive a different Force Power entirely, that can be successfully activated?

I have my suspicions, but I could not find the answers to these specific inquiries, in book or thread. Thanks!

Pretty much the intent is that the player declares what Force power they're using (typically as their action that round), rolls their Force dice, determines how many Force points they have to work with, and then decide how to spend them.

So in the case of not generating enough Force points to activate sufficient upgrades, be it Range or Strength or Magnitude, the player can choose a different effect.

However, once you've declared what Force power you're rolling the dice for, that is your action, as the power is 'activated' even if you fail to generate sufficient Force points for even the basic effect, so you don't get to switch to a different Force power anymore than another character making an attack against a foe with Adversary 3 gets to suddenly switch to a minion group after they've rolled their skill check.

Where it gets tricky is where skill checks, be it opposed (Influence's Control upgrade to affect emotions/beliefs) or against a flat difficulty (Move's Control upgrade to hurl objects), get involved, as the difficulty of the check may well depend on what upgrades you're able to activate.

Personally, I've found the easiest solution is to have the player roll their Force dice first, see what upgrades they're able to activate, and then have them roll the skill check with the appropriate difficulty. Of course, the point of concern with this approach is that a PC might flip a Destiny Point to convert black pips into Force points, suffering strain and Conflict to do so, and then wind up flubbing the skill check. It's a minor thing, but it's something to consider.

You cant switch power if that's what you mean. So if you have declared you want to use the mind trick control upgrade you cannot then switch to the basic power (each control upgrade is essentially it's own power) , so if you choose to use the mind trick you can spend the pips any way you want for that power after you roll the pips. So if you use the basic power once you roll the pips you can then decide how many to use on range etc.

I have to disagree. I have my players select their targets, and if they do not roll enough pips, they may continue to affect targets in a weakened form, i.e. if you are using Move, and wanted to pick up 3 items at short (2 sil 0 and 1 sil 1), with magnitude 1 and strength 1. It would require 4 pips (1 base power, 2 magnitude, and 1 strength). If they only roll 3 pips, it still activates, but they have to decide whether they want the 1 base + 2 magnitude, or 1 base + 1 mag + 1 str. I would not let them roll, get three pips and decide to pick up a Sil 2 item instead. That is like declaring a ranged(heavy) attack, rolling the dice, then deciding a target based on the roll.

1 hour ago, Edgookin said:

I have to disagree. I have my players select their targets, and if they do not roll enough pips, they may continue to affect targets in a weakened form, i.e. if you are using Move, and wanted to pick up 3 items at short (2 sil 0 and 1 sil 1), with magnitude 1 and strength 1. It would require 4 pips (1 base power, 2 magnitude, and 1 strength). If they only roll 3 pips, it still activates, but they have to decide whether they want the 1 base + 2 magnitude, or 1 base + 1 mag + 1 str. I would not let them roll, get three pips and decide to pick up a Sil 2 item instead. That is like declaring a ranged(heavy) attack, rolling the dice, then deciding a target based on the roll.

Thats still using the same power , influences basic power and the mind trick are essentially two different powers, you cant for example choose one then switch to the other if you didnt roll enough pips, you could use the basic power and if you dont roll enough pips to cause strain damage to someone at medium range, you could use your pips to hit someone at shorter range assuming you have enough, but you couldnt choose to use the basic power then switch it to the mind trick (which has its own control upgrade)

17 hours ago, syrath said:

You cant switch power if that's what you mean. So if you have declared you want to use the mind trick control upgrade you cannot then switch to the basic power (each control upgrade is essentially it's own power) , so if you choose to use the mind trick you can spend the pips any way you want for that power after you roll the pips. So if you use the basic power once you roll the pips you can then decide how many to use on range etc.

Well, it's kind of a moot point with regards to Influence since you only need one Force point to activate either effect, but if you don't have a valid target you're engaged with (or simply don't have the Force points to activate a Range upgrade to affect a target that's not engaged) then it's a moot point.

Now, if the PC has already rolled their Discipline check to use the Control upgrade and failed, then I agree they can't switch over to inflicting strain.

I'd also differ on your interpretation that a Control upgrade within a Force power are separate 'powers' and thus a PC is automatically committed to using a Control upgrade's effects, such as is the case with Influence's basic power and the mind trick Control upgrade. Granted, with many of the Control upgrades they've got the same Force point activation cost as the base power, so again it's a bit of a moot point, as if you fail to get enough Force points to activate the desired Control upgrade's effect you generally don't have enough Force points to activate the power's basic effect.

The one major point that I'd say a PC is "locked in" to a specific use of a Force power is when it's being used to directly affect a skill check, such as the bulk of the Enhance power or Influence's Control upgrade to affect social skill checks, since with those require the PC to be making a skill check at the same time they're rolling their Force dice, thus committing them to a course of action the same with any other skill check. The other being Enhance's Force leap Control upgrade, especially if trying to use it move to a location that the PC can't otherwise reach normally with a maneuver.

On 8/31/2017 at 8:49 AM, HappyDaze said:

You declare you're using a certain power and roll the dice. Exactly how you choose to use that power is determined after the dice are rolled. You cannot use a different power with the roll you've made.

How does this interpretation work with Suppress, which adds failures to a Force power rolls that targets a particular character? Doesn't that imply that a power check has to have a target chosen before the dice are rolled?

1 hour ago, DaverWattra said:

How does this interpretation work with Suppress, which adds failures to a Force power rolls that targets a particular character? Doesn't that imply that a power check has to have a target chosen before the dice are rolled?

It's not any different in this than in any other resisted Force check that also includes a skill check.

The guy using Suppress (basic power) just rolls the Force dice and it applies until the next round.

Another guy using a Force power against PCs/major NPCs rolls the Force dice and the skill check together (per the rules, you could roll them separately and do the skill check following the Force roll). The Force dice are spent first, then the skill check is resolved. If the Power targets someone protected by Suppress, then there is an added failure on the skill check. The Control Upgrade of Suppress is a bit different as it effectively imposes a "tax" on using Force powers to target the protected individual. This is easy enough to account for, and it's not meant to be a secret "gotcha" (the person using the Force power will know they have to spend the point(s) to get through Suppress).

Sure, but clearly Suppress could not work the way it's supposed to unless players were forced by the rules to pick their targets before rolling the power check.

This implies that you can't just choose which power you're using, roll the dice and then decide what you're doing with the power. You need to decide what you're attempting to do before rolling.

4 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

Sure, but clearly Suppress could not work the way it's supposed to unless players were forced by the rules to pick their targets before rolling the power check.

This implies that you can't just choose which power you're using, roll the dice and then decide what you're doing with the power. You need to decide what you're attempting to do before rolling.

Not true. If I decide to use Move and I don't get a lot of pips of my preferred color, I might decide not to try and grab the guy with the Committed Suppress effect. After I decide whether i spend an extra pip, I then resolve the skill check, now taking in the base effect on any Suppress-protected targets I've selected when spending the pips.

2 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Not true. If I decide to use Move and I don't get a lot of pips of my preferred color, I might decide not to try and grab the guy with the Committed Suppress effect. After I decide whether i spend an extra pip, I then resolve the skill check, now taking in the base effect on any Suppress-protected targets I've selected when spending the pips.

Page 283 of Force and Destiny:

When a player makes a resisted power check, the Force dice are rolled together with the skill and difficulty dice in a single pool.

Edit:

Or are you saying that you roll the opposed skill check + Force dice, but can then decide to spend the pips on something else, other than targeting the character you made the opposed roll against? The rules don't specifically say you can't do that, but it seems to me like a bizarre option for players to have given what the rules do say.

35 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

Page 283 of Force and Destiny:

When a player makes a resisted power check, the Force dice are rolled together with the skill and difficulty dice in a single pool.

Edit:

Or are you saying that you roll the opposed skill check + Force dice, but can then decide to spend the pips on something else, other than targeting the character you made the opposed roll against? The rules don't specifically say you can't do that, but it seems to me like a bizarre option for players to have given what the rules do say.

I covered this in the first post of mine that you quoted. You roll the Force dice with the check but resolve them first. And bizarre options are the norm here. FFG are not good at making clear, ironclad rules. They specialize in handwaving "do what feels best" rulings. I try to play as close the the RAW as possible, apparently more so than the Developers if you read the Q&A on this site, and my answers are based upon this approach. However, I find it is better to roll the Force dice separately and spend the points then roll the skill check. It avoids much of the issue you're having.

11 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

And bizarre options are the norm here. FFG are not good at making clear, ironclad rules. They specialize in handwaving "do what feels best" rulings.

Fair enough about the devs, but what evidence do we have that players do have the option you're suggesting? Has there been a ruling about this?

From the rules (same sidebar on p 283):

Quote

Likewise, the skills used to oppose the check
also depend on the situation. The defending
character often can use Discipline to oppose
a Force power check if that character is also
a Force user. However, in an opposed check
where the attacking character is trying to pull
the weapon from the defending character's
hand, the defending character might use Athletics
(representing attempts to hold onto a
weapon).

This seems to strongly imply that a player has to declare what they are trying to accomplish with a Force power before the GM can determine which skill to use in opposing it. So it implies that a player must choose how they're using the power in advance, before any dice are rolled.

Also:

Quote

The check must generate sufficient() to activate the
power and must generate at least one uncanceled
~ to successfully execute the action he is
attempting with the Force power.

For this passage to be accurate as written, there must be a settled fact of the matter about "the action the player is attempting with the Force power" prior to rolling the dice.

7 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

Fair enough about the devs, but what evidence do we have that players do have the option you're suggesting? Has there been a ruling about this?

From the rules (same sidebar on p 283):

This seems to strongly imply that a player has to declare what they are trying to accomplish with a Force power before the GM can determine which skill to use in opposing it. So it implies that a player must choose how they're using the power in advance, before any dice are rolled.

Also:

For this passage to be accurate as written, there must be a settled fact of the matter about "the action the player is attempting with the Force power" prior to rolling the dice.

Try using my suggestion of rolling the Force dice first and spending pips then rolling the check and see if that solves your problems.

2 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Try using my suggestion of rolling the Force dice first and spending pips then rolling the check and see if that solves your problems.

I understand how that would solve the problem, and it's a fine house rule IMO. But the rules as written say to roll all the dice together.

I'm not saying anything about whether your suggestion would work well in a game. I'm just arguing that it is incompatible with the RAW.

Just now, DaverWattra said:

I understand how that would solve the problem, and it's a fine house rule IMO. But the rules as written say to roll all the dice together.

I'm not saying anything about whether your suggestion would work well in a game. I'm just arguing that it is incompatible with the RAW.

So what? I stick to the RAW until I don't. Take it or leave it. These rules are not tight enough to bother trying to enforce strict rulings, as can be seen by the devs' constant deviance from RAW.

That's cool with me! I just took the original poster to be asking a question about how the RAW works, rather than asking for suggestions about how to house-rule Force powers.

3 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

That's cool with me! I just took the original poster to be asking a question about how the RAW works, rather than asking for suggestions about how to house-rule Force powers.

If you stick strictly to the RAW, there are several areas of this game that will start to break and you'll never come up with a good answer. I'd rather just make a ruling that consistently works and get back into the game. Sadly, some of the (bad) rules were set in stone during the EotE playtest and were "untouchable" after that even when they were known to be problematic. Beyond this, errata and FAQ entries are so far out of date that it's clear FFG doesn't really care about addressing difficulties that arise as the game is actually played.

14 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

If you stick strictly to the RAW, there are several areas of this game that will start to break and you'll never come up with a good answer. I'd rather just make a ruling that consistently works and get back into the game. Sadly, some of the (bad) rules were set in stone during the EotE playtest and were "untouchable" after that even when they were known to be problematic. Beyond this, errata and FAQ entries are so far out of date that it's clear FFG doesn't really care about addressing difficulties that arise as the game is actually played.

Does this seem to you like a case where the RAW is broken? It's not very specific for sure, but if you take what is said to its logical conclusion, a character has to declare what they're trying to do with a power before rolling. That doesn't strike me as broken, although I can see why your way of handling things might work better, especially for low level characters.