3 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

but When your 40 point ace gets nuked or your 16 hp ghost goes down in one round, something is wrong with the game.

I guess I haven't really encountered this problem except as a "Nice shot, Janson" sorta moment. IMHO, that is what should happen with a missle or torpedo--major smacky. That's why most ships only get one.

Just to be onery, that'll teach you to put all your eggs in one basket. ?

2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

I guess I haven't really encountered this problem except as a "Nice shot, Janson" sorta moment. IMHO, that is what should happen with a missle or torpedo--major smacky. That's why most ships only get one.

Just to be onery, that'll teach you to put all your eggs in one basket. ?

are you refering to a hundred point list as "one basket"? lol.

the game is based and balanced on movement, primary weapon attacks, and then repositioning. alpha strikes remove all of that and allow someone to deal tons of damage immediately on aproach with no counterplay other than canceling targetlocks. 6 missile z95s or 5 Tie bombers can wipe anything with low agility or low HP first round. its dumb

3 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

are you refering to a hundred point list as "one basket"? lol.

the game is based and balanced on movement, primary weapon attacks, and then repositioning. alpha strikes remove all of that and allow someone to deal tons of damage immediately on aproach with no counterplay other than canceling targetlocks, controlling range through proper flying, breaking up formations to reduce the amount of ordnance on you through proper flying, getting out of firing arc through proper flying, using asteroids to control where your opponent's arc will end up facing through proper flying, etc. 6 missile z95s or 5 Tie bombers can wipe anything with low agility or low HP first round. its all in the flying.

Fixed that for ya :3

6 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

are you refering to a hundred point list as "one basket"? lol.

the game is based and balanced on movement, primary weapon attacks, and then repositioning. alpha strikes remove all of that and allow someone to deal tons of damage immediately on aproach with no counterplay other than canceling targetlocks. 6 missile z95s or 5 Tie bombers can wipe anything with low agility or low HP first round. its dumb

Assuming you were flying 100 point lists, 40 points for 1 ace is "one basket." I suspect a Ghost build out is even more. You should be dead meat with a 2 ship list vs. a 5-6 fighter swarm. And you have painted a glowing "high priority" bullseye on those ships, so it is only good tactics that the Ghost eats every missile available out the gate.

Going back to the WWII analogy, I'm pretty sure a lone B-17 with a P-51 escort would fair pretty poorly vs. 5-6 ME-109 swarm, rockets or no.

It could be that your opponents have read your tell and are bringing effective counter-lists. . .

I guess I can remember when missiles/torps sucked eggs, so the idea that they are actually dangerous now is pretty appealing to me.

I don't get what TLT has to do with Imperials falling out of the meta. Imperials were never worried by turrets. Ever try to hit Soontir with a TLT outside arc? It's pretty much impossible. Soontir backed up by Palp (and flown well) can easily kill 4 TLTs on his own. The 4-TLT squad hasn't been competitive in ages (which is why the fact they just made it available to Imperials is just adding insult to injury).

@Mackaywarrior, you made a great post, but you seem to imply the Imperial design has always been underserved by the game. That's not true. Imperials had very popular and successful builds until pretty much yesterday. They were arguably the most feared faction (as they should). They even kept JumpMasters at bay. The game was healthy. Now, not so much, unless you find healthy a 3-faction game where not all 3 factions are represented on the tables.

What happened? Bombs happened. Stupid, silly, absurd bombs. And auto-damage in general. Auto-damage shouldn't exist in this game, it's a slippery slope that's very dangerously threatening to eventually destroy the game. If they don't realize it, they're fools. Auto-damage makes no sense: so that explosion is unavoidable? How avoidable is fire from range 1 toward a large target, then? I literally put my cannons in front of your face and shoot, and you're able to dodge it. I fire tracking missiles at you, and you dodge them. But somehow that explosion is unavoidable. Not to mention the Autoblaster+Accuracy Corrector, which crosses into the realm of wizardry. It auto-damages by magic. The sooner they get rid of that unholy combo (by just stating that Autoblaster only works if you roll the dice), the better will be for everyone, and especially Imperials. But nothing should auto-damage, except maybe for things that also damages you, like Vader (but I'll be okay with Vader being rewritten, too; I never even understood what it's supposed to represent: in which way Vader damages his own ship with the Force? By killing officers because he's angry? How does that relate to damaging his enemies at the same time?)

Nerfing the turrets is not really an answer to anything. Plus, it would essentially turn the Decimator into garbage, further nerfing the Empire as a whole.

Eh, it's less bombs happened and more that they happened on too many ships. And Sabine.

Other auto damage sources aren't nearly as dumb. Slicer tools are fine since it's RNG and conditional on stress. As you noted, Vader has backlash damage. Oicunn requires ramming and pays with actions or stress as a result (also eating range 1 fire in the decimator lol). And so on.

But Sabine backed bombing is just straight silly, and Nym probably pushes it a little too far (mainly in being PS 8 - he wouldn't be nearly as frustrating at PS 7, since then aces can VI to 10/11 to clear him consistently)

@Kumagoro, that is a fantastic point. I also think power creep has something to do with it. The more we move towards weird sci-if mechanics, the worse agile ships seem to be. Bombs actually penalize you for being a good pilot.

I recently tried to go against Dengar+Nym with two Defenders TIE/D+Ion Cannon and Cap. Jonus in bomber with fleet officer. Well I made one mistake that cost me the game, but it was not nearly as bad as I expected, yet there were still things that annoyed me.

While I kept Nym ionized for like 4 rounds and almost managed to fly him off the map, but made wrong choice by b-rolling instead of taking the bomb with 5 health defender. If he had Cad Bane on it would be more deadly for me, but he did not, so the bombs were not really a problem. The most ridiculous thing is just autoblaster with accuracy corrector, when my opponent said "Take two damage." I just had to laugh.

As @Kumagoro said, auto damage just does not belong in this game. If it was that crits are unblockable, it would be more balanced, but no one would play it. By adding "This roll cannot be modified." Would lessen alot of stress from Autoblaster.

I have an issue with bombs after SLAM but that's not that much of a problem. Yet I have to test bombs going against ship agility, since almost everyone has some way to modify the roll, while you fly on bomb, or it is thrown right on your ship, it would give aces some more space to live and would make some sense, as small ships tend to have more agility, than big ones who would have and have harder time avoiding bombs. Like each bomb having attack value and then suffer the effect of like "seismic bomb having you suffer one damage". But I don't think that this will happen as it would require too much testing from FFG and we all know how much they test things and also alot of rewriting and FAQ changes. Just changing how autoblaster works would make difference.

15 hours ago, hawk32 said:

Are you trying to make bombs better?

More balanced. This makes them worse at killing high agility stuff, but better at killing low agility stuff.

Yes, they will mostly one shot high agility stuff if they do hit. But that makes sense. What doesn't make sense is that they can just autohit high agility in the first place.

Bombs would be classified as an "Out of Arc attack", so you would get Autothrusters. Stealth Device would also protect against them.

Even the 4 attack bombs would statistically only roll 2 hits. Only 12.5% of the time would they get 3 or more hits. And the bomb attack would be unmodded, while the defender would get mods since it would either be detonating during your activation or at the end of the activation phase.

I would change the Mine type bombs to be "when a ship or it's maneuver template overlaps this template while performing a maneuver, the mine detonates at the end of that ship's activation. All ships that currently overlap the template are attacked by it.". This way, dropping a Connor Net/Proximity Mine on someone doesn't trigger the mine till that ship moves, and it can still take a focus or evade action preemptively to defend against it.

edit: double post

3 hours ago, Kumagoro said:

I don't get what TLT has to do with Imperials falling out of the meta. Imperials were never worried by turrets. Ever try to hit Soontir with a TLT outside arc? It's pretty much impossible. Soontir backed up by Palp (and flown well) can easily kill 4 TLTs on his own. The 4-TLT squad hasn't been competitive in ages (which is why the fact they just made it available to Imperials is just adding insult to injury).

@Mackaywarrior, you made a great post, but you seem to imply the Imperial design has always been underserved by the game. That's not true. Imperials had very popular and successful builds until pretty much yesterday. They were arguably the most feared faction (as they should). They even kept JumpMasters at bay. The game was healthy. Now, not so much, unless you find healthy a 3-faction game where not all 3 factions are represented on the tables.

What happened? Bombs happened. Stupid, silly, absurd bombs. And auto-damage in general. Auto-damage shouldn't exist in this game, it's a slippery slope that's very dangerously threatening to eventually destroy the game. If they don't realize it, they're fools. Auto-damage makes no sense: so that explosion is unavoidable? How avoidable is fire from range 1 toward a large target, then? I literally put my cannons in front of your face and shoot, and you're able to dodge it. I fire tracking missiles at you, and you dodge them. But somehow that explosion is unavoidable. Not to mention the Autoblaster+Accuracy Corrector, which crosses into the realm of wizardry. It auto-damages by magic. The sooner they get rid of that unholy combo (by just stating that Autoblaster only works if you roll the dice), the better will be for everyone, and especially Imperials. But nothing should auto-damage, except maybe for things that also damages you, like Vader (but I'll be okay with Vader being rewritten, too; I never even understood what it's supposed to represent: in which way Vader damages his own ship with the Force? By killing officers because he's angry? How does that relate to damaging his enemies at the same time?)

Nerfing the turrets is not really an answer to anything. Plus, it would essentially turn the Decimator into garbage, further nerfing the Empire as a whole.

Well stated @Kumagoro, counterpoint plus, like your logic and conclusion. These are the threads that assist the designers in fixing this imbalance; thanks!

Sabine crew is broken in half. Its worse than accuracy corrector+autoblaster turret imo.

What i feel has started to happen is a shift away from skill intensive lists and clever flying/arc dodging to more 'i roll dice and win' lists. this game shoudlnt be about lots of red dice backed up by autodamage combos/synergies.

Much of the fun is sucked out of the game when a mechanic is so game warpingly powerful. I think FFG will errata these auto damage effects over time. well hope they do!

@clanofwolves, apparently the trick to maintaining the discussion is to post a small novel to start lol

Yes, @Mackaywarrior, a novel thread genesis can, and often is, the best one...especially if the topic is of premier importance and the author spins his tale from solid and well thought paths, as you have.

The game is great, it's real issues minor, and I feel it's restoration to beauty, may be quite easy.

On 9/2/2017 at 8:37 PM, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

Much of the fun is sucked out of the game when a mechanic is so game warpingly powerful. I think FFG will errata these auto damage effects over time. well hope they do!

Where can we write FFG a serious, well-written letter (or three, or three hundred) asking to errata all auto-damage?

True story: one of the players in my kitchen group mostly plays Rebels. He has a Ghost that rarely sees play because he doesn't like it much. Somebody suggested him to try the Autoblaster combo, so he did. At some point in the game his opponent said, "Shoot, I think I just killed my own Fenn Rau." They measure range, and yes, Fenn Rau had landed within range 1 of the Ghost, although barely. So he just takes and sadly removes Fenn Rau from the table (there were no other engagements in that combat phase). And the Rebel player says, "Wait, what just happened?" "The Autoblaster combo, remember?" "So that's just it? He just dies?" "Yup." "Well, that's lame. I want to shoot my enemies, not watching them disappear because they chose the wrong maneuver."

So he says he'll never play that combo again. Because it's as fun as winning a game because your opponent flew all their ships off the table.

1 hour ago, Kumagoro said:

Because it's as fun as winning a game because your opponent flew all their ships off the table.

Thats the reason me and my friend don't enjoy this game as much as we used to. I got this game for the fun of playing star wars with starfighters when FA core set got released. And now we just play it for the tournament prices and the models are quite well done. No longer we play just for the fun, but to adjust our lists to current meta. We were two empire players, one rebel and one scum as core of our group and now we mostly switched from empire to scum, because it is just easier and stronger... I still try to make imperial lists work, but making lists just to counter bombs and auto damage is not funny.

I wonder if it is in an effort to Europeanize the game to make it more appealing for that market. Lots of dice throwing in a game is considered "Ameritrash" style gaming.

Man, those TIE Phantoms are rough! There's no way to win against them! They need to nerf those things before they ruin the Meta! It's a good thing we at least have PWTs to break even. I sure hope they never nerf large based ships for some reason!

6 hours ago, Mackaywarrior said:

I wonder if it is in an effort to Europeanize the game to make it more appealing for that market. Lots of dice throwing in a game is considered "Ameritrash" style gaming.

Huh never heard about that. I would think the opposite, considering that the european meta is more diverse and less netlisting.

6 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Huh never heard about that. I would think the opposite, considering that the european meta is more diverse and less netlisting.

I've never really understood it either. I don't know nearly enough about board game marketing to be able to Really comment lol

7 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Huh never heard about that. I would think the opposite, considering that the european meta is more diverse and less netlisting.

I think that's on a different axis entirely.

"Eurogames" like Settlers and Puerto Rico started what has meanwhile become a veritable board gaming craze in Europe (mostly, Germany). Many US folks started these games and liked their gameplay: Indirect confrontation, deep thinking for multiple turns, a low impact of chance / luck, point-based victory conditions, mechanisms before theme.

On the other hand, at around the same time, what has now come to be known as "Ameritrash" games started really taking off in the US. Games that started this included Dune, Axis & Allies, HeroQuest. Direct confrontation, high impact of dice rolls and random card draws, often won by the player vanquishing their enemies, and mechanisms need to evoke theme or they're left out.

These two, alongside "wargames" (usually hex and counter, lots of rules, simulating RL battles and strategies) and "abstract games" (with no or very little theme, minimalist components) have become the cornerstones of a bit of a gaming taxonomy. Here's an in-depth look at that taxonomy - some people have taken a real liking of gaming theory and history; this particular guy splits up Eurogames, too.

Meanwhile, the extremes have been mixed and mingled in hundreds of ways, but they still serve as some sort of guideline towards what kind of game people enjoy or not. X-Wing definitely leans heavily towards the Ameritrash side of that spectrum.

Personally, I play both games that some consider Ameritrash and games that some consider Euro, though I'm leaning towards the AT side of things and don't like my games too dry or too pointsy or too disconnected from theme. And also, with my current addiction to X-Wing, much of the rest of my 500+-games library stays unplayed because I keep coming back to this one game we all love here.

If a player can pull off a devastating alpha strike on a low agility ship then that's something that WORKS in the game. If a player flying low agility point sinks doesn't want to lose their basket full of eggs then maybe they should fly a sizable escort as well. There's options for cheap fighters in all factions.

likewise autodamage is avoidable, even the Autoblaster Accuracy Corrector combo: stay out of range one! That annoying PS 10 bomber? Just as vulnerable to a ps 1 blocker or enhanced scopes as any other small based ship, even with post move repositioning.

I still like to roll dice tho, it's exciting! But X-wing still has the randomness of the dial even if dice were completely absent from the game.

57 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

likewise autodamage is avoidable, even the Autoblaster Accuracy Corrector combo: stay out of range one! That annoying PS 10 bomber? Just as vulnerable to a ps 1 blocker or enhanced scopes as any other small based ship, even with post move repositioning.

2

1

Blocking advanced sensors, engine upgrade, and infinite bomblets Nym is not the same as blocking almost any other ship. There's also the fact that for scum Nym blocking him just means your blocker takes a bomblet and can't shoot back at Nym.

@haslo great post! I for one, cannot stand euro style games. Settlers of Catan is just awful though I do enjoy terraforming Mars.

X-Wing is very undeniably AT based but maybe they want to move the dial a little more towards a Euro Model just a couple degrees.

Would be interesting to see a strategy 4x style addition that compliments this game. If I were FFG I would be trying to find all sorts of ways to blend my games or at least parts of them. Arturo Cluster and Their RPG model comes to mind. BUT I am not FFG and that is probably for the best lol

At the end of the day, FFG wants money and to grow. This is a great thing! I would argue the best way is to make each model more valuable to a player. Right now they have devalued their imperial models so a third of the game is not as profitable as it once was.

@haslo amazing, thank you very much!