2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:Your loss. Why would you just stop reading the whole post because you disagree with a minor introductory point? I never understood that mentality
If the entire premise is wrong, why bother with the following conclusion - which is bound to be flawed? 
Just now, Keffisch said:If the entire premise is wrong, why bother with the following conclusion - which is bound to be flawed?
Two reasons:
1) Because you might be misunderstanding - his intended meaning is pretty clear. So try to stick to the principle of charity in online discussions
2) Because you still get the chance to learn something, as the rest of the argument might be very worthwile despite a flawed premise
The big Elephant in the corner with imperial performance, and turrets in particular, is deflection shooting.
Shooting at a target crossing your path is hard. Shooting at a target when you are moving perpendicular to where you're shooting is hard.
How many ships in the movies are hit by a shot from someone that isn't in their rear quarter? Wedge gets a head on kill in Episode 4, Wedge is PS 9. I'm sure Poe gets a couple in his rampage, he's PS 9. I can't think of any others.
Pretty much all the air combat tactics in WW2 (and WW1, and Korea), involve minimising dealing with deflection shots. I'm not sure if adding in a penalty for deflection shots would help Imperials much, but as the (theoretically) agile-aces faction, good flying should be rewarded, and deflection shooting does that. Of course that would be a major rules change, so won't happen.
Turrets are also incredibly hard to work unless the platform is moving straight and level. What possibly should have happened was turrets take -1 red dice on a bank, and -2 red dice on a turn or K-turn if attacking outside the front arc. Suddenly turrets stop being dogfighters, or take penalties if they act like fighters. Idea would need tweaking, of course.
Bombs work here because distances are compressed. Instead of firing from 100m-300m away, our ships fire from 10-40m away, or so. Personally, I hate them. They feel nothing like dogfighting, and only serve to kill actual dogfighters.
12 hours ago, FlyingToaster said:Bombs work here because distances are compressed. Instead of firing from 100m-300m away, our ships fire from 10-40m away, or so. Personally, I hate them. They feel nothing like dogfighting, and only serve to kill actual dogfighters.
The entire Star Wars spacefighter thing is more or less ridiculous from the science point of view. With those speeds you would never go to eyedistance to fight, less be able to do anything without the most advanced electronics. Spacefighting would probably be much more like in the Haldeman books.
But this would make boring movies. So lets go with the flow, and suspend disbelief. Your analogy of 50-60ties jetfighting is certainly interesting, however Lucas was mainly building from 2nd world war tactics thats why Lucasfilm released this game, being one of the earliest really interesting simulators, and a recycling product from studying flight and tactis for Star Wars :
But you can stretch the 60ties (or 40ties) analogy only this far in certain regards. SW bombs seem to be MUCH stronger than real-life bombs, with power more like HC4000 Blockbusters, the russian ATBIP (father of all bombs) or tactical nukes, while being comparatively small:
So certainly not 40m.
16 hours ago, Jetfire said:TLT is simple, just fix the rules so all turrets and cannons use the normal range rules.
Missiles have thrust and guidance so they don't care about range except to lock on. Cannons and Turrets should.
TLT is simple to fix. It's a dogfighting game of 100pt squads. This doesn't even equate to the number of ships seen in the Battle of Yavin.
So seeing 2+ turrets on a battlefield is ridiculous.
Limit listbuilding so you may only include 1 Turret ship (Primary or secondary) in your list per 100pts.
Yeah, an FAQ pulling back turrets and bombs into some kind of logic and space gameplay reality would be great, but FFG doubled down on turrets with the Scrugg and the mild-Aggressor. I'm thinking they like that game mechanic and want that ? everywhere.
3 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:Yeah, an FAQ pulling back turrets and bombs into some kind of logic and space gameplay reality would be great, but FFG doubled down on turrets with the Scrugg and the mild-Aggressor. I'm thinking they like that game mechanic and want that ? everywhere.
I think they just want to release what they think will sell. Both the new pack and make you go get old packs that you skipped because they were "useless" then.
"Imperial are left out in the cold!" Gives us a turret imp rather than fixing the issues
"Make ordnance better!" Ok. Here's guidance chips.
"Bombs are useless!" Enter her holy explosiveness and bane of Imperial pilots everywhere, Sabine.
I mean, I'm surprised it took them 270+ pages before they gave us the Gunboat. And you know what? I'm going to reward them for listening by buying two gunboats.
My point is... Ffg will do what it takes to make money. Has nothing to do with which mechanics they want to see in game or not.
1 hour ago, ScummyRebel said:...Ffg will do what it takes to make money. Has nothing to do with which mechanics they want to see in game or not.
This ultimately is the reason for any business that creates games.
If this is their driver only, the game will die. If it is not, they need to get off their proverbial ***es and get the remainder of the FAQ out and fix the OP crap so their "Bringing Balance to the Force" isn't just deception.
Salt rant over.....
Thanks @Scummy Rebel, that was better than caffeine....
1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:This ultimately is the reason for any business that creates games.
If this is their driver only, the game will die. If it is not, they need to get off their proverbial ***es and get the remainder of the FAQ out and fix the OP crap so their "Bringing Balance to the Force" isn't just deception.
Salt rant over.....
Thanks @Scummy Rebel, that was better than caffeine....
No problem. Honestly I don't expect the game to live forever. Nothing expandable ever does. There will be an eventual reboot when they can't keep it floating, and eventually the market share is lost in favor of some other thing so even the reboots die out.
The fact that our space battles are so compact is a big reason why we get unrealistic situations in the game. It's just how it is. No real reason to fix this either. Flying close is fun lol
Unrealistic situations as in weapon performance and ship design that is lol. We are talking about a Galaxy where Teddy Bears can beat soldiers after all.
Edited by MackaywarriorOn 8/31/2017 at 11:49 AM, xanderf said:
- Advanced Proton Torpedoes
- Proton Rockets
- Cluster Missiles!
That's why Major Rhymer exists.
1 hour ago, Mackaywarrior said:We are talking about a Galaxy where Teddy Bears can beat soldiers after all.
Geeze, thanks for bringing that painful memory up....that had to be some of the most reprehensible scenes in popular sci-fi cinema by a mile.
On 8/31/2017 at 11:19 AM, Keffisch said:If the entire premise is wrong, why bother with the following conclusion - which is bound to be flawed?
On 8/31/2017 at 11:22 AM, GreenDragoon said:Two reasons:
1) Because you might be misunderstanding - his intended meaning is pretty clear. So try to stick to the principle of charity in online discussions
2) Because you still get the chance to learn something, as the rest of the argument might be very worthwile despite a flawed premise
Actually, I think this premise is sound, but find his conclusion flawed.
To wit:
Imperials are supposed to be maneuverable but fail in this against PWT
and
PWT "historically" should not be as effective as they are.
Thus, rather than boost dozens of starfighters defensively, nerf the PWT to make it less powerful. The easy fix is not to add a green die, but to remove a red one:
If a ship with a PWT is not firing into the forward arc, reduce its Attack value by 1 die.
This is a game mechanic that is easily to implement as an errata, and reflects the real-world issue of hitting a moving target while you yourself are moving.
30 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:PWT "historically" should not be as effective as they are.
Thus, rather than boost dozens of starfighters defensively, nerf the PWT to make it less powerful. The easy fix is not to add a green die, but to remove a red one:
If a ship with a PWT is not firing into the forward arc, reduce its Attack value by 1 die.
This is a game mechanic that is easily to implement as an errata, and reflects the real-world issue of hitting a moving target while you yourself are moving.
Elegant solution. I like it!
4 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:No problem. Honestly I don't expect the game to live forever. Nothing expandable ever does. There will be an eventual reboot when they can't keep it floating, and eventually the market share is lost in favor of some other thing so even the reboots die out.
M:TG is 26 years old. Star Wars fandom is 40 years old. Technically, this game could last for a long time as long as the licensing holds out. Just think. . .Wave 50! There are certainly that many ships in existence in the lore.
So it really is up to FFG to prevent XWM from collapsing under its own weight by becoming too complicated or imbalanced to maintain interest.
Or, ahem, to find new ways to play the game that keep the game interesting (like M:TG Commander does).
Edited by Darth Meanie5 hours ago, clanofwolves said:This ultimately is the reason for any business that creates games.
If this is their driver only, the game will die. If it is not, they need to get off their proverbial ***es and get the remainder of the FAQ out and fix the OP crap so their "Bringing Balance to the Force" isn't just deception.
Salt rant over.....
Thanks @Scummy Rebel, that was better than caffeine....
you tagged the wrong one haha.
the reality is that the moment missiles worked at all, dogfighting ceased to exist. ordinance doesnt work in this kinda game for the same reason it doesnt work in modern war, the alpha strike wins before maneuvering becomes relevant. if this game we all love is gonna survive and thrive, ordinance and pwts need major dialing back
13 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:the reality is that the moment missiles worked at all, dogfighting ceased to exist. ordinance doesnt work in this kinda game for the same reason it doesnt work in modern war, the alpha strike wins before maneuvering becomes relevant. if this game we all love is gonna survive and thrive, ordinance and pwts need major dialing back
Given that Missiles and Torps require forward arcs and don't extend range, they are not really the major problem. The alpha strike requires PS or Range 3 as well.
Bombs and PWTs are another story.
Edited by Darth MeanieBombs should all be changed to being attacks that roll vs the target's defense in an area. Then cancel all dice results and do X effect.
Proximity Mine: Attack 3. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 3 damage. Then cancel all dice results.
Cluster Mine: Attack 4. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage. Then cancel all dice results.
Conner Net: Attack 4. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage and receives 2 ion tokens. Then cancel all dice results.
Proton Bomb: Attack 2. If this attack hits, the defender receives 1 damage and 1 faceup damage card. Then cancel all dice results.
Ion Bomb: Attack 3. After this attack is resolved, the defender receives 2 ion tokens. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage. Then cancel all dice results.
Thermal Detonator: Attack 3. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage and 1 stress token. Then cancel all dice results.
BB-9E (crew upgrade, imperial only)
add one bomb upgrade slot
each time a friendly bomb detonates roll a damage die for each ship (one at a time) affected by that bomb token and apply any hit or crit result to each ship.
(permanent home on the Deci?)
Edited by GrimmyV26 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:Bombs should all be changed to being attacks that roll vs the target's defense in an area. Then cancel all dice results and do X effect.
Proximity Mine: Attack 3. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 3 damage. Then cancel all dice results.
Cluster Mine: Attack 4. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage. Then cancel all dice results.
Conner Net: Attack 4. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage and receives 2 ion tokens. Then cancel all dice results.
Proton Bomb: Attack 2. If this attack hits, the defender receives 1 damage and 1 faceup damage card. Then cancel all dice results.
Ion Bomb: Attack 3. After this attack is resolved, the defender receives 2 ion tokens. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage. Then cancel all dice results.
Thermal Detonator: Attack 3. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage and 1 stress token. Then cancel all dice results.
Please, never do this.
I would rather take my chances on the bombs as they are than this completely debilitating idea.
It's the amount of damage that bombs put out vs the amount of health on certain ships that ruin those ships. Making the damage output into an auto kill if it hits is not the answer.
Yikes.
2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:Given that Missiles and Torps require forward arcs and don't extend range, they are not really the major problem. The alpha strike requires PS or Range 3 as well.
Bombs and PWTs are another story.
i meant in real world history. missiles replaced guns for to Air-to-Air combat the second targeting systems became reliable. In star wars you dont see X-wings shooting torpedos at eachother for this very reason, it would remove the ww2 dog-fighting aspect and make the combat too realistic to be fun.
In the game, its also true though. alpha strikes arent fun to play against. an opponent either tries to win an initiative bid so they can erase you with their attack before you even get to play, or they rely on enough of their cheap ordinance carriers to unload before dying then mop you up. no strategy or counterplay at all once the game has started. luckily there are lists it doesnt work against, but When your 40 point ace gets nuked or your 16 hp ghost goes down in one round, something is wrong with the game. Right now the single issue i see damaging my groups enjoyment of the game is ordinance. everrything else rules
2 hours ago, BadMotivator said:Bombs should all be changed to being attacks that roll vs the target's defense in an area. Then cancel all dice results and do X effect.
Proximity Mine: Attack 3. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 3 damage. Then cancel all dice results.
Cluster Mine: Attack 4. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage. Then cancel all dice results.
Conner Net: Attack 4. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage and receives 2 ion tokens. Then cancel all dice results.
Proton Bomb: Attack 2. If this attack hits, the defender receives 1 damage and 1 faceup damage card. Then cancel all dice results.
Ion Bomb: Attack 3. After this attack is resolved, the defender receives 2 ion tokens. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage. Then cancel all dice results.
Thermal Detonator: Attack 3. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage and 1 stress token. Then cancel all dice results.
Are you trying to make bombs better?
6 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:Thus, rather than boost dozens of starfighters defensively, nerf the PWT to make it less powerful. The easy fix is not to add a green die, but to remove a red one:
If a ship with a PWT is not firing into the forward arc, reduce its Attack value by 1 die.
This is a game mechanic that is easily to implement as an errata, and reflects the real-world issue of hitting a moving target while you yourself are moving.
I agree that their red dice need to get hit more than their target's green dice. At the very least they shouldn't be able to add a dice at range 1 when shooting out of arc. "arc-dodging" them but still eating 4 dice to the face is never fun.
1 hour ago, Vontoothskie said:i meant in real world history. missiles replaced guns for to Air-to-Air combat the second targeting systems became reliable. In star wars you dont see X-wings shooting torpedos at eachother for this very reason, it would remove the ww2 dog-fighting aspect and make the combat too realistic to be fun.
Or... You could consider that missiles and torpedoes are nearly ineffective against shields, but extremely damaging against hull. So even with ordnance you will need some dogfighting to bring down the enemy shields.