So the argument has been proffered that if this game moves into the prequal and sequel eras (as it most likely will), we will be suffering through three iterations of armies that are essentially reskins (Imps, Clones, First Order), that we will potentially have to buy anyway due to power creep.

So, to avoid this, the basic troops need to be unique yes?

How would this be accomplished?

The Stormies set a standard for comparatively high defense, with somewhat mediocre shooting.

Personally I'd have Jango's clones move to black dice, and perhaps have the option for two extra troopers instead of just one... but perhaps cost more.

I think I'd leave the FO very very close to Imperial Troops in terms of raw stats, but do something with their moral system; either have them hyper focused due to the kidnapped brainwashed thing... or have their moral all wonky because of Finn... probably not the second one, let the movie be the outlier.

A discussion I keep wanting to partake in/start but can't cuz most of my reading happens in snatches on my phone at work, (building a new set of Barracks for Fort Gordon, 83 almost identical bathrooms to tile...) it's a blessing (work) and slightly a nightmare (repetitive work); the discussion being:

White dice suck (mentioned this in my first post), but the DLsomething or other - 19 seems an awesome upgrade for the points (what? 24, adds 2 reds and impact 1 I think).

So what flavorful upgrades that keep a certain style to each army would you guys think? (And what stat mods and tweaks would you suggest like the two above?)...I am extremely tired and need to be putting kids in bed so this thought process isn't cohesive.

OK, without having read the rules...that isn't really how tabletop wargames work. Standard infantry generally have the same stats (so in WW2 gaming, there is no difference between a British, American or German infantryman) and cost the same amount of points per man/unit. Some games allow you to spend extra points to improve those infantry (by making them harder to kill) but they would still move or shoot in the same way. If FFG want this to be taken seriously as a tabletop wargame (and it seems that they do) then 'power creep' is something they really want to avoid. GW might get away with it (for various reasons) but they are the exception in the hobby.

Easy, stay in GCW era!

Just now, Hannes Solo said:

Easy, stay in GCW era!

But FFG want to make money so they will expand the range as much as they can. Don't forget, it's standard practice for wargamers to have multiple armies for the same game...I'm starting my third Bolt Action army at the moment. What is seen by the OP as being an issue ('reskinning') is something that wargamers actually want from a game (i.e. options).

They can expand in GCW era. Enough material for several armies and a decade of expansions.

30 minutes ago, tuco74 said:

OK, without having read the rules...that isn't really how tabletop wargames work. Standard infantry generally have the same stats (so in WW2 gaming, there is no diifference between a British, American or German infantryman) and cost the same amount of points per man/unit. Some games allow you to spend extra points to improve those infantry (by making them harder to kill) but they would still move or shoot in the same way. If FFG want this to be taken seriously as a tabletop wargame (and it seems that they do) then 'power creep' is something they really want to avoid. GW might get away with it (for various reasons) but they are the exception in the hobby.

In WW2 tabletops infantry has the same stats? Not really. Nor should they as there were significant differences in morale, training and equipment. With SciFi, the latitude is even greater, so power creep is a lot easier to do. They did that with X-Wing, less so with Armada, but of course never coming close to GW levels. I hope for the best, but I am wary...

9 minutes ago, Rumar said:

In WW2 tabletops infantry has the same stats? Not really. Nor should they as there were significant differences in morale, training and equipment. With SciFi, the latitude is even greater, so power creep is a lot easier to do. They did that with X-Wing, less so with Armada, but of course never coming close to GW levels. I hope for the best, but I am wary...

They certainly do in Bolt Action, not familiar with FoW and those are easily the two most popular examples. There are some exceptions e.g. Russian armies in BA can have a 'free' squad of inexperienced infantry but broadly a standard infantryman is the same cost in each army. Certain weapons will add points, as will increasing a units experience.

6 minutes ago, tuco74 said:

They certainly do in Bolt Action, not familiar with FoW and those are easily the two most popular examples. There are some exceptions e.g. Russian armies in BA can have a 'free' squad of inexperienced infantry but broadly a standard infantryman is the same cost in each army. Certain weapons will add points, as will increasing a units experience.

If I understand you correctly your point is that infantry with the same stats should have the same points cost, which is something else than having uniform stats. Well, I do hope that FFG will get that right.

4 minutes ago, Rumar said:

If I understand you correctly your point is that infantry with the same stats should have the same points cost, which is something else than having uniform stats. Well, I do hope that FFG will get that right.

Yes, same stats = same points, just as any improved stat should = more points or a decreased stat elsewhere. In BA, all armies have 'special rules' that do the same job to some extent e.g. Americans can move and shoot with no penalty, German machine guns get an extra dice etc.

Lets take the galactic civil war Imperial Stormtrooper and the First Order Stormtrooper as an example.

we have seen the stats on the imperial Stormtrooper. White die attack range 1-3, red die defend. Get an extra die to reroll. Wound threshhold and morale threshold of 1 each. Speed 2, surge converts to hits.

What would differentiate the First Order Stormtrooper?

perhaps the white die converts to black. Keep the surge to attack. Speed, health and morale all stay the same, But maybe an ability that they can remove a dodge token to remove suppression tokens?

11 hours ago, juxstapo said:

So the argument has been proffered that if this game moves into the prequal and sequel eras (as it most likely will), we will be suffering through three iterations of armies that are essentially reskins (Imps, Clones, First Order), that we will potentially have to buy anyway due to power creep.

So, to avoid this, the basic troops need to be unique yes?

How would this be accomplished?

The Stormies set a standard for comparatively high defense, with somewhat mediocre shooting.

Personally I'd have Jango's clones move to black dice, and perhaps have the option for two extra troopers instead of just one... but perhaps cost more.

I think I'd leave the FO very very close to Imperial Troops in terms of raw stats, but do something with their moral system; either have them hyper focused due to the kidnapped brainwashed thing... or have their moral all wonky because of Finn... probably not the second one, let the movie be the outlier.

So what flavorful upgrades that keep a certain style to each army would you guys think? (And what stat mods and tweaks would you suggest like the two above?)...I am extremely tired and need to be putting kids in bed so this thought process isn't cohesive.

I think it depends on the version of the Clones. Since Phase 1 and Phase 2 could be distinct, the Phase 1 troopers are generally seen with the long blaster rifles so maybe they could have longer range 2-4 or just different dice/surges to represent that. Phase 2 generally were more seen with the short blaster rifle so more Stormtrooper sized range I think. As for the upgrades it depends on how the CIS are, B1 Battle Droids could easily have 2 Troop upgrades and 1 Variant upgrade instead of having the equipment or grenade upgrades. The Clones could have the Phase 1 be more focused on just the Troop upgrade while the Phase 2 focuses more on Variant upgrade to show the growth of personality in the clones or you could at the outset set them more around the Variant upgrade considering they were more encouraged to show individuality than the Stormtroopers or Battle Droids, plus there are a few variant weapons that they used like the Z-6 minigun that the rebel is using and the quad repeater blaster gun , not to mention that Battlefront II might give even more once that releases.

I like the idea of the FO Stormtroopers having more Courage so they are less likely to retreat due to their brainwashing and training, they also have room for variants like a melee focused riot trooper so maybe they reward more rushing the target and getting in their face?

If we were to assume that then maybe the factions would focus on:

Rebels: A focus on hit and run tactics, with strong heroes and single figure units. More of a focus on smaller forces while being able to more dictate the battle by being on the move than other factions.

Imperials: Generally focus on staying behind cover, aiming and shooting at their target while relying on strong commanders like Vader or Support and Heavy units to do the heavy lifting.

Republic: A focus on quality over quantity with strong Jedi that require right activations to get themselves ready with their force upgrades while having clones with strong variants that help prepare them for various situations.

Separatists: A focus on swarming the other player with cheap and many weak forces, many of which might be rolling white dice like the B1 Battle droid.

First Order: Charging in and getting in their face with Kylo, riot troopers, with possibly having flame troopers able to destroy some cover.

Resistance: Too soon to really say, we really haven't seen them in action.

28 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Lets take the galactic civil war Imperial Stormtrooper and the First Order Stormtrooper as an example.

we have seen the stats on the imperial Stormtrooper. White die attack range 1-3, red die defend. Get an extra die to reroll. Wound threshhold and morale threshold of 1 each. Speed 2, surge converts to hits.

What would differentiate the First Order Stormtrooper?

perhaps the white die converts to black. Keep the surge to attack. Speed, health and morale all stay the same, But maybe an ability that they can remove a dodge token to remove suppression tokens?

What's missing from that is that if you make a faction more powerful...you have to increase the points cost to keep balance. Bigger points cost = smaller force on the tabletop.

Just now, tuco74 said:

What's missing from that is that if you make a faction more powerful...you have to increase the points cost to keep balance. Bigger points cost = smaller force on the tabletop.

Agreed. I didn't include this in my breakdown simply because it seemed to be a logical assumption.

4 hours ago, tuco74 said:

But FFG want to make money so they will expand the range as much as they can.

They can expand the game a great deal and stay in the CGW erra.

4 hours ago, tuco74 said:

Don't forget, it's standard practice for wargamers to have multiple armies for the same game..

With Legion you can still do that just by putting different options into your list. Several factions is not required to have variety in list building.

Just now, VanorDM said:

With Legion you can still do that just by putting different options into your list. Several factions is not required to have variety in list building.

Yes, of course. When I put together a force for a wargame, I always have options to allow me to build different lists - I may or may not field 2 MMGs but I have the miniatures I need to do it if I want. But once I've built one faction (and very often before I've even finished!) I want to build a different army. I've got a wishlist of at least four or five armies I'm planning in the future for different games.

That's the mindset of pretty much every tabletop gamer I've ever met and that's the market FFG are looking to tap into. Will they focus on the original trilogy to begin with? Yes, with possibly some Rogue One as well. But once FFG have done that, and if the games is successful, they'll start looking at other releases from other sources. Why would they not?

8 minutes ago, tuco74 said:

But once FFG have done that, and if the games is successful, they'll start looking at other releases from other sources. Why would they not?

Yes of course they will. I expect to at least see FO and Resistance troops in the game at some point. I'd also like to see Clone and Droid armies...

Edit: I think the fact that it sounds like I'm disagreeing with you is due to a lack of coffee on my part.

But some people seem to think we need all kinds of different factions like in 40k for the game to work, and that's not something I agree with.

I keep seeing people say that FFG want to tap into the general wargaming market. I actually disagree...

With the format hey have gone for and the decisions made, to me it seems clear that they are tryi to tap into the portion of the wargaming market that are attracted to the Star Wars IP. This means they don't have to include lots of factions and constant,y bring out new silliness, because most Star Wars fans like staying somewhat faithful to the setting.

This game is very obviously not going to topple GW from its dominance in this arena, nor does it look intended to. It WILL take a tasty bite out of that market however, and give FFG even more exposure and a toehold into a new large playing field.

2 minutes ago, VanorDM said:

Yes of course they will. I expect to at least see FO and Resistance troops in the game at some point. I'd also like to see Clone and Droid armies...

There still won't be Clone Wars stuff, for reasons that have been brought up for years which, whilst never confirmed by FFG, come from strong sources that good searching will find.

My offer to eat a Galactic Republic paper flag with photo evidence stands should this ever come to pass. Feel free to save this post for the future...but I feel quite safe

1 minute ago, Extropia said:

There still won't be Clone Wars stuff, for reasons that have been brought up for years which, whilst never confirmed by FFG, come from strong sources that good searching will find.

I don't know how true that really is. Alex and Frank were quite clear they didn't want to do clone wars stuff in X-Wing. But the prequels are all over the dice game so the license thing really doesn't seem to as true as some people think it is.

Plus this is a tabletop mini game which can be under a completely different license agreement then IA is. I'm not going to say it will happen, only that in this case I'd actually like to see it happen.

1 minute ago, Extropia said:

I keep seeing people say that FFG want to tap into the general wargaming market. I actually disagree...

With the format hey have gone for and the decisions made, to me it seems clear that they are tryi to tap into the portion of the wargaming market that are attracted to the Star Wars IP. This means they don't have to include lots of factions and constant,y bring out new silliness, because most Star Wars fans like staying somewhat faithful to the setting.

This game is very obviously not going to topple GW from its dominance in this arena, nor does it look intended to. It WILL take a tasty bite out of that market however, and give FFG even more exposure and a toehold into a new large playing field.

So...you don't think FFG want to tap into the general wargaming market...by releasing a wargame?

Well yes, only wargamers interested in Star Wars will buy Legion, the IP excludes anybody who isn't. That's only the same as me saying I don't play Napoleonic wargames because I'm not interested in the Napoleonic wars. FFG will bring out as many factions and 'silliness' as they can sell at a profit, although there's a consideration that you don't want to alienate players by doing it.

No, Legion won't topple W40K, of course it won't...but if you think that FFG didn't have at least half an eye on that particular prize then you're probably wrong.

FO and Resistance will be very boring because there are no real differences to the Empire and Rebels!
But a Separatist Droidarmy will have lot of differences and much more diverse models than any other faction. Even the republic army will be more diverse than the empire because they can have low level Jedi als troops and not only as commander.
I know, some hardcore OT-fans dont want to see such things and I too love the OT far more than die PT but I love the diversity of the PT and I want badly minis from the clonewar era!

I'm pretty sure it is a miniatures licence issue. It applies to X-Wing and Armada too.

You can even see signs that they want to use bits, but can't until it comes out of "Prequels and Clone Wars" territory. ARC-170 is a good example....as soon as it appears in other canon, BAM. X-Wing model also appears.

Ultimatately only FFG know for sure, but it's come from more than just Alex and Frank over the years (he'll, it was first hinted before Alex was onboard at all).

FWIW, I would really, really like it to happen so I would love to be wrk. I'd eat that flag joyfully if it came to pass

9 minutes ago, Chrisael said:

FO and Resistance will be very boring because there are no real differences to the Empire and Rebels!
But a Separatist Droidarmy will have lot of differences and much more diverse models than any other faction. Even the republic army will be more diverse than the empire because they can have low level Jedi als troops and not only as commander.
I know, some hardcore OT-fans dont want to see such things and I too love the OT far more than die PT but I love the diversity of the PT and I want badly minis from the clonewar era!

There are low level force users we could have in GCW empire.
It is not so much prequel hate that makes me hate the Ide but the timelinegore and the loss of immersion it brings.

The droids of the Seperatist Army are indeed interesting and would make an army that is different but I would prefer to get them in form of the Droid Gotra and stay in the GCW era.

14 minutes ago, Chrisael said:

FO and Resistance will be very boring because there are no real differences to the Empire and Rebels!

But we're talking about tapping into the wargaming market. If that argument held true you would only ever see British/American/German forces for WW2 games, British and French for Napoleonics etc. because really, all the other armies were similar. FFG aren't looking to sell exclusively to FFG fans with this game...they're looking to expand into a market where people collect armies extensively as an integral part of their hobby. Wargamers LIKE buying and collecting miniatures, they don't see it being somehow ripped off.

6 minutes ago, Hannes Solo said:

The droids of the Seperatist Army are indeed interesting and would make an army that is different but I would prefer to get them in form of the Droid Gotra and stay in the GCW era.

This would be a nice compromise but than there will be no models from general grivious, count doku or asaij ventress!