crimhead said:

Yes, with alternative endings you can avoid stalemates but lots of people prefer standard CoC ending for the reason of PvP battle. It is the most excited part of the game! But when someone is not powerful enough to catch CoC he can takes tactic of "neverending heals" and I think this game aspect needs an official clarifications to avoid those kind of situations (especially on a game events where game is played by official rules)

My main objection to Timescape was its Sci-Fi theme. If it was done as the Astral Plane and kept with the high fantasy theme it would not be bad.

I much prefer, however, a chain of islands with some unique movement rules.

Inner Region alternatives would be fun as well, also alternate endings.

Timescape yuck!

Never again I hope. Do everything to make sure it doesn't happen.

Ell

CoC is probably my favourite ending too, for the very reason that endgame rushing is climactic and sudden death is not. But I don't agree that the random endings destroy that element. Note that Warlock Quests cannot be used in the random draw, so I will not consider this ending.

Say players have about three lives each:

• C&S is very tough. You've basically got about three turns to live. In other words, you need to be already chasing the leader when they reach the centre, or in the inner region with transference. This ending is the worst for the endgame rush. It's my least favourite, but I'm okay with seeing it 25% of the time. I admit it's virtually sudden death, but onlly 25% likely.
• Danse Macabre allows a little more oppportunity. While it takes an average of three turns to kill the second runner up, if they have three fate it takes more like five turns on average. Sometimes it will take even longer. With three lives each, it only takes six turns (average) to kill everyong with standard CoC anyway, so this isn't much worse. If there are two players able to chase the leader, it can take longer to kill both of them than using the command spell. DM can also backfire if the Reaper is sent back against the leader! This ending is great for a tense and climactic endgame.
• The Frost Queen can take many turns to kill, and even kill the leader! True, if you in there strong enough you can win four in a row. But waiting that long is a very poor strategy - it's palying it to safe. Somebody else will go ahead at str/cft 14 or 15, playing a risk but probably still probably win (though not in a single turn). Then you'll have to chase them them anyway. If FQ is on the random draw, you can go in with only a slight chance of beating her and still be a huge favoutite to win the game. That's smarter than waiting to power up and letting somebody else go in as a huge favourite to win the game. Although there is no PvP fighting here. It's still an interactive race. The fact that someone can reach the end and get totally killed is cool too - and this will happen frequently if FQ isn't revealed until you get there. It's the only ending that's in anyway dangerous, so I like it.
• Then there's CoC, which still comes up 25% of the time, so we still get the old style rush with some frequency.

With the CoC only coming up 25% of endings, it's poor to attempt to set up perpetual healing unless there is no other option. It's just too unreliable. Also, whenever I play a good character I try to hit the mystic to be turned evil - that way I get fate. Beyond that, if your playing straight CoC, you are in the lead, but there is a good character running around with the owl or poltergeist, don't go to CoC! If you do, you deserve what you get! You've got to deal with that player first.

Maybe we are playing differntly, but to me stalemate is a freak rarity. Other games have occasional ties, so it doesn't bother me as long as it's not too common.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

On topic - I'd love to see more random endings. I'd like to see another dangerous one like FQ (but different). We could also do with more like DM, meaning an ending where theres still a PvP rush but aslo eliminateds the ties which seem to be the bane of so many players here.

C&S should have eliminated healing but not made it an auto kill. Maybe we can get another like it - say Crown & Throne - that eliminates healing (but perhaps not gaining), and leaves the command spell as is (or perhaps reduces failure to ones and twos)? That would please the players who want a standard style ending (with no healing), and serve to keep standard style endings common in the random draw as we get more new nonstandard endings. I think C&T would make everyone happy!

Croonos said:

Dam said:

crimhead said:

Sadly, based on the wording, you yourself might not even get a turn before you die. Because C&S takes a Life at the start of each player's turn (not just the player who is on the CoC), in a 4-player game, if you're #4 in the turn rotation, you'll die at the start of your turn, before the full rotation (player 1, 2, 3, 4) is even complete (if player 1 is the one who moves to the CoC).

crimhead said:

Actually, IIRC, it was clarfied that the Reaper can never go the Inner Region, even with this ending.

crimhead said:

Ice Queen ending reads that when you beat her in combat, you attack her again immediately, which to me means another attack the same turn. Meaning she'll most likely die the turn a character reaches the CoC.

Dam said:

I didn't notice that, but I'll take your word. that is pretty harsh - sudden death. I guess in a three way game if your already in the plain of peril with transference you can pull it off. Not much ending there. Now I do't even like ths 25% of the time. I won't mind it maybey 12.5%. Bring on more endings!

Dam said:

Well, that makes it even easier to rush to the end - once you're in the inner region they just have to wait for you? It takes five turns (minimum) to get through the inner region. That means you lose about 2.5 life to the command spell on your way. If you had all 4, could only afford to lose 1.5 lives before you cross the PoP - which takes three turns against the command spell. This (three) is the same amount of turns it takes to die to DM before you cross PoP. But, against CoC you could also lose lives in the inner region on route, which cumulate with the command spell. Plus, with DM having fate can keep you alive. In CoC, having fate won't help, but if the guy in the middle has it, it kills you faster.

It seems to me like DM gives you an even better chance to rush the centre than CoC. It's also very much like CoC - every turn you take a shot at people until they die or they catch you. This is pretty close to standard ending but with no draws. I don't know why more people don't play it.

As for the clarification, I vaguely remember that being "ruled" on these boards only. I follow the rules and the FAQ - not a conversation somebody once had with the designer. if they can't be bothered to clarify that in an official capacity it's not official IMO. The DM card says "in any region". the FAQ says " the Grim Reaper may never teleport to the Inner Region." But the the Reaper only teleports when you roll "there's been a mistake" Also, it says "never teleport to the inner region" It doesn't say he can't teleport within the inner region. And finally, the Reaper rules don't say anything about the entering inner region, they say he can't cross the Portal Of Power.

If FFG want to clarify this in the FAQ that's great. I can print that and show my friends. I won't print every single thread with a rules question in it though.

Dam said:

I have to challenge this. If you have a 15 in str/cft, you only win four in a row about 48.2% of the time. If you highest stat is 14, you win four straight about 27.2% of the time. If you're foolish enough to wait till you fight at seventeen or better, somebody will gladly go in before you and take a few turns to kill her. then you have to abandon your quest to power up, and chase them anyway - you may as well have gone in before them (then they chase you).

If you guys are going in as huge favourites to beat her, you're probably not playing right. You're just giving the other players a better chance to go ahead of you - they might lose, but they'll probably win in a few short turns. It's a calculated risk, and a smart one. If you play hidden reveal, it's even crazier to wait for huge stats - get in as soon as you can. 75% of the time you get an easy ending anyway. The other 25% you still have some chance. The conservative player will get the occasional win, and never lose to FQ, but will still usually lose.

I recommend going in as soon as you can, or if you're way ahead wait till your 14 or 15. Maybe higher if you have one life and no fate (and no competition), but your just as well to pick up lives or fate then to gain levels.. Obviously sometimes you can't get in till you're super high anyway, but usually you can get in around 12 or 13 - especially if you're going in through the inner region. If you don't, someone else will.

Anyway, I'm sure we'll one day get a happy middle between CoC and C&S. We won't need an errata, just an alternative. Until then, I do recomend Danse Macabre - fun and flavourful!

crimhead said:

Do these take into account Fate?

crimhead said:

Usually there is one character who is well in the lead, so they can take their time to boost to 15+, then hit the Inner Region. Of course, this doesn't mean you have the stat to 15, just that you have 15+ in combat (so Warhorse + Mercenary giving you say +7, Str 8 needed, which is of course easy to get with those Followers). Or you exit the Treasure Chamber to the CoC, meaning you just beat the LoD (Ice Queen's equal in combat) by 8+, you're probably going to molest the IQ as well (gotta love spell-casting Trolls with Energize). Since the Ice Queen is immune to Spells, you do have to grind your stats up before going in (can still affect yourself with Spells, just can't Fireball, Finger of Death, Hydra Spell her).

Also, we don't play random endings, it's chosen at the start (or not these days, just default CoC).

I didn't calculate with fate - largely because I'm lazy and don't want to grind those numbers. But I figured adding fate doesn't change the argument - only the precise strength and craft value it relates to. That is too say, if going in with 13 or 14 plus fate gives you a great chance of winning four in a row, then going in with 11 or 12 plus fate should give a good chance of winning over three or four turns. You can't take this to the extreme though - if you go in too low you might not reach the centre, and if it takes too many turns to kill her she might kill you.

Also, sometimes fate is hard to come by, but it certainly does play a factor.

If you don't use random endings, then players tend to be much stronger (or craftier) going against FQ. I personally don't like FQ so much unless it's randomly revealed for this very reason - it becomes almost a sudden death.

Indeed if you beat LoD by eight you're likely good against the Queen. Although sometimes your beat LoD due to one shot spells, items, and captured enemies, items and followers which only provide a bonus in the dungeon, and by use of limited fate (while you may not have four left for the Queen - if any). eg, your spell casting troll has probably already used energise to get to the Queen. In these cases you can beat LoD but still take a few turns with FQ.

Then there are the times you don't beat LoD, but go through PoP. This doesn't take nearly the fighting stength as beating LoD by eight points. In my game LoD is common for the win - at least half the time I think. But you said it was rare for you?

If one player is well ahead, you won't get much of ending anyway, even using CoC. A good climactic ending is contigent on players being closely matched. In this way FQ (not hidden) can give a better end game rush - sometimes you have little chance against the leader, but still have a fair chance to beat FQ if he misses - especially if he weakens her for you, he misses turns, and/or you have one shots.

Anyway, I think you're a wise Talisman player and a good deal of this comes down to tastes. For instance, If you don't like random hidden endings, I can certainly understand not liking FQ so much. CoC is still perhaps my favouriute too, though I like the surprise best of all.

Have you tried Danse Macabre? If so, what did you think?

crimhead said:

Except this Troll in question used Energize (double Str value, so basically +6) and Elixir of Rage (+3 Str). Additionally, both of these effects last until the end of the turn and turn doesn't end until you get a stand-off or loss. With +9 to Str, kicking LoD's behind by 8+ was easy, exit to the CoC, +9 still remains in effect against the Ice Queen, who ever more quickly goes down in 4 attacks, all still during the same turn.

crimhead said:

Yep, people take on LoD around 1/3 of the games, exiting at the CoC about half the time.

crimhead said:

I've noticed several ways to lengthen the game when CoC ending is used. Transference is probably the best, especially if the other character took a few Life losses on the Inner Region (DwD or Vampire), you might just get in enough Command Spells to kill them as they race back toward to Crown. Path of Destiny Spell forces them to take a Warlock's Quest and they must complete it if able (Visit Quest are of course useless here, but Discard Object for example) sees them teleported back the Warlock's Cave.

crimhead said:

When (not if, when ) Horrible Black Void comes to R4th, random hidden endings will gain a hefty boost. I don't dabble in home-brewed or downloadable content TBH. They won't have the same quality as printed material, so random hidden doesn't work (or does, only if you say roll for the ending after someone reaches the CoC). Ice Queen as hidden ending would probably suck even more. Make it to the Crown, bounce back to the Plain of Peril (if you roll the result on the IQ's chart), then think, man, still a lot of grinding to go through. Might as well see IQ from the start, at least you'll know you have grinding ahead of you.

Good point about energise - I forgot FQ battle happens that same turn! I've only seen FQ come up a couple times. I prefer random, but some of my friends are really into Warlock Quests. I still maintain there'll be plenty of times to go in on a risk - and way more if you like random.

I'd like to see HBV - it's like the antithesis of C&S. But I'd arther have at least eight endings before we get this, because it's quite brutal and acan draw out the game. I like it with Timescape a lot - it slows you down but doesn't kill you. I think I'd like it if HBV was the only way into the Timescape.

I don't play homebrew endings either. I really like the official downloadables, and I tend to like things official. I'd like to actually shuffle, but I don't mind rolling. I'm going to try to make some nice copies. Maybe oneday they'll print these as promos or something for us. I certainly wouldn't play random with just FQ and C&S!