4 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

Exactly and this is also why we often have disputes about what is and isn't balanced and what does or doesn't make a good house rule. Its common that a TI player will believe that his group experience and the results of their game identify what is and isn't balanced, than discuss on the basis of that experience, create house rules etc... not realizing how vastly different the experience can be with a different set of players. Which is why I always say house rules are for your house, posting them and than arguing with people who disagree with you about the quality of that rule is such a pointless en-devour as group dynamic above all else has the greatest impact on the balance of the game. Its really rare that I read a house rule or variant and say "yeah, that is great, really well thought out". Most of the time I'm like... if I put that in my game, it will outright break it. But its because I know my players, I know our group dynamic and the only thing that works there, are things applicable to their styles of play and approach to the game.

The most common place I see this happening is in the adjustments of racial abilities. You see so many house rules and variants with heated discussions about the balance of it, which is why I think its really important that when you present a variant you kind of explain what is going on in your house games. For one, it will clarify why you are creating with the applicable logic the solution you have created, but more importantly it can lead to the discovery of new strategies and tactics you might not have thought of that make the variant unnecessary.

Common races I see altered are the Sardek N'orr (totally unnecessary, they are crazy good), the Xxcha (again, just way too good to get buffed) and The Mentak (again... sooo good). Races I can get behind is the Winnu for which its less about wether they are good or not, but more about the fact that they are just boring to play and very narrow (but again, experiences may differ)

Is there a site that could aggregate cross-meta data of these games already? (If not how useful would one be to the community?)

3 hours ago, bloodycelt said:

Is there a site that could aggregate cross-meta data of these games already? (If not how useful would one be to the community?)

I think it could be very useful, in fact our community has made attempts to track statistics before like how often certain races win games or polls on opinions about strength. Even with a consensus though it may or may not have any bearing at any individual table. For example in TI3 the most common race to win (as I recall from stat tracking back in the day) was the Yssaril Tribe which I always found pretty interesting given that in a decade of playing this game I have never seen them win a game. I always felt people should, but dynamics in our house games being what they are, stronger races rarely win in general. Most of the time they get knee capped out of fear of their potential, so I didn't necessarily disagree with the polled and stat tracked assessment, but my group never felt any reason to nerf them since they never won anyway. We were usually trying to get the Hacan and Mentak in check.

I remember in Game of Thrones 2nd Edition, the Stannis card would take a +1 (huge bonus) if his faction wasn't 1st in the Iron Throne track. As if he would gain strength while on pursuit of his birthright.

Something similar could be done with the Winnu. It could either be something minor and additional to give them the option to deal with games were they can't grab MR, or something major that substitutes their current ability. Something that will make the other players to "want" to allow the Winnu take MR (...or else heh)

Eg:

Case 1, (minor ability, added to the rest): Imperial Birthright:- +1 to all rolls during combat against the faction that currently holds Mecatol Rex

Case 2. (major ability, subs the Reclamation one): Imperial Birthright: At the end of the Strategic phase, if you don't control Mecatol Rex, you may exchange your strategic card with the card of the player who picked Warfare

or +1 to all rolls during combat as long as another faction holds Mecatol Rex

Just a thought

I misliked strong races for exactly that reason. Other players need to check their strengths, which made it a bit boring because they never lived up to their potential.

1 hour ago, Stefan said:

I misliked strong races for exactly that reason. Other players need to check their strengths, which made it a bit boring because they never lived up to their potential.

Yes I agree. There is quite a bit of "get'em" out of fear that prevents really strong races from succeeding at our table, I don't know how common that is in other people's games, but its very prevalent in ours. It is in a sense a balancing of the game through group dynamics, but I'm not convinced its a particularly great effect, I would much rather have races that are more closely balanced.

On the flip side, I really don't think racial abilities can be balanced in a game with this many dynamics and moving parts, what typically happens as people house rule races is X and Y super strong races are put in check, catapulting races A and B and now they are the strongest races in the game and you end up just redirecting that dynamic at them.

Its why I firmly believe the best way to balance races is rather than messing with racial abilities, you adapt their starting conditions. So if a race is really strong, you weaken their starting position, if they are really weak you to strengthen them. Inherently I think all racial abilities in both TI3 & TI4 are useful and applicable to a strategy, its more commonly an issue that those advantages don't get to shine because the race is too weak or vice versus, the abilities are amplified because the race is so strong to begin with.

A good example is the Winnu of course, their racial ability is quite weak because they are at a major disadvantage due to their starting conditions in pulling off a Mecatol first strategy. However if you give them Carrier II in addition to any color starting tech and stack some more ground forces and a second carrier at the start. Suddenly they are a real threat because its going to be really tough for anyone to beat them to Mecatol and they are well setup to taking it and holding it. Its still a very narrow strategy for them, but they become a very prominent threat without any alteration to their racial ability.

It's not so much a question of the abilities per se. Take the Yssaril in TI3, for example. They weren't overpowered because of their ability, but because of the combination of their ability, starting units and starting tech. They were strong in all three areas. The Jol'Nar, for example, had crappy starting units, balancing their racial ability together with the malus in combat. But some races were simply too strong in all three areas.

On 12/6/2017 at 4:29 PM, BigKahuna said:

I think it could be very useful, in fact our community has made attempts to track statistics before like how often certain races win games or polls on opinions about strength. Even with a consensus though it may or may not have any bearing at any individual table. For example in TI3 the most common race to win (as I recall from stat tracking back in the day) was the Yssaril Tribe which I always found pretty interesting given that in a decade of playing this game I have never seen them win a game. I always felt people should, but dynamics in our house games being what they are, stronger races rarely win in general. Most of the time they get knee capped out of fear of their potential, so I didn't necessarily disagree with the polled and stat tracked assessment, but my group never felt any reason to nerf them since they never won anyway. We were usually trying to get the Hacan and Mentak in check.

What stats usually get tracked (besides, faction and victory points earned?)

I think that's sufficient. No need to overcomplicate things.

Number of turns perhaps?

So, we played our first game TI4 today. Based on this discussion, I took Winnu and made straight for MR. Well...the race really is a one-trick pony. I had a bad starting position and was neighbored by the Yssaril, who had a far better one and slammed into my exposed flank and continued to eat me while Sol and Letnev were moving with all the speed of a glacier and couldn't get into the game until the Yssaril had the victory in their lap. (7 rounds)

If you'll forgive a repost from BGG, here are the things that I've been toying with adding to the Winnu, separated by how sure I am about doing it. None of the ideas are original; I'm more looking to discuss which ones to implement and why.

Very Likely to Add

1. When another player removes the Custodian token from Mecatol Rex, gain any one technology that player has or three Trade Goods.

(Doesn't overly increase their power, because it parallels their "MR for free" ability; they'll only use one or the other in any given game. Instead, it increases their utility.)

2. You may score public objectives if you control Mecatol Rex or Winnu.

(I don't want to force them down the MR Rush lane, but if they do pull it off, this makes it a bit less attractive to take advantage of their weakened-by-necessity homeworld defenses.)

Will Probably Add One Of These

(I think both would be too much. I'm leaning toward 3b right now.)

3a. You may choose two starting technologies. The first must have no prerequisites; the second must have no prerequisites or a prerequisite satisfied by the first.

(Yes, you can grab Gravity Drive for the MR Rush, but this gives you the option to pursue any tech path right out of the gate. Heavy Yellow would be pretty sweet, too.)

3b. You have an additional carrier and two additional infantry.

(Would allow them to spread out into two dual-planet systems, or try a MR Rush using Warfare while still being able to expand normally a bit.)

I like the first two. Not sure if it's too much to put in all four.