Zee Garcia's review has me a little concerned about this game. I have pre-ordered my Core set and can't wait to get it. Is Zee right? Does a game really take 2 to 2 and a half hours to play!?!? For those that have played a few rounds, what's your take?

GenCon rounds were limited to 50 minutes, which was a bit tight for people new to the game and the rules and their decks to always finish on time, but many managed to do so.

Short answer: No. We've been finishing in 30-45 minutes.

Long Answer: There are a lot of moving parts in this game. In addition, every turn is a unique situation. There is very little autopilot. A new player may take a long turn trying to consider everything available.

I believe that the game takes a long time because it is a new game. There are a lot of decisions to make, and until you've defined your typical win goal, and the play patterns that drive you to your win goal a lot of time can be spent floundering. Deciding whether to engage in a conflict, which type, which ring, who to send and leave, which province to attack, which boosts to use, in what order, how you respond to your opponent's plays, and then do it all again in defense... and then again in attack... and then again in defense (I think my experience is that most rounds have 2-3 conflicts)

My games are taking about 1.5-2 hours. Once I refine my play style I expect we'll see that come down to about 1 hour game time.

A few adjustments I think they should make to speed up the game -> 1) starting hand size 5. Drawing just 4 cards makes it hard to be certain you can do anything, adding 1 more card to start the game will let people see more options even without card draw to form their first turn buying decisions. 2) open the game with 1 fate on each ring. I think the 2nd player advantage of gaining an extra fate is very strong, and that the first turn is noticeably more sluggish than any other - and why? This isn't mtg where we're dropping a land and a 1/1 with summoning sickness, or ol5r where we buy holdings, building up a game - this is new5r where every turn is turn 1 or 2 again lol. Crank up that access to fate a bit so that we can get the game going faster!

If it's your first time through or you are teaching someone the game or either one or both players have zero previous experience with cards games, then expect the first game to take over an hour.....since you'll be learning as you go.

I wouldn't use that as your measuimg stick for time. Once you and the others you play with are more familiar with the game it should take about 45 mins.

Your first few games may take that long, but once you know what the cards do, and more importantly don't have to re-read the Rings every turn (which may take a couple of games) you'll speed up noticeably. On my first night of testing we took 5 hours to get 3 games done, but at Gencon I didn't have a game go to time.

From what I've seen tightly contested games go 50 minutes or so. Average game is 35-45.

This is with one core set and everyone learning to play.

With three core sets and being more familiar with the game I think we will probably see most games over in 35-40 minutes.

10 minutes ago, shosuko said:

A few adjustments I think they should make to speed up the game -> 1) starting hand size 5. Drawing just 4 cards makes it hard to be certain you can do anything, adding 1 more card to start the game will let people see more options even without card draw to form their first turn buying decisions. 2) open the game with 1 fate on each ring. I think the 2nd player advantage of gaining an extra fate is very strong, and that the first turn is noticeably more sluggish than any other - and why? This isn't mtg where we're dropping a land and a 1/1 with summoning sickness, or ol5r where we buy holdings, building up a game - this is new5r where every turn is turn 1 or 2 again lol. Crank up that access to fate a bit so that we can get the game going faster!

Oh shosu-so-crazy. Lol

I can't be certain but I'm pretty sure FFG didn't balance the game around Dragon being able to push out a 6/6 Seeker of Enlightenment on the first turn. Cuz that's what would happen if all the rings started with a fate on them.

5 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Oh shosu-so-crazy. Lol

I can't be certain but I'm pretty sure FFG didn't blance the game around Dragon being able to push out a 6/6 Seeker of Enlightenment on the first turn. Cuz that's what would happen if all the rings started with a fate on them.

YEs.

Starting hand of 5 I'm ok with but too much extra fate and it somewhat devalues the mechanic and could make for some busted openings.

15 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Starting hand of 5 I'm ok with but too much extra fate and it somewhat devalues the mechanic and could make for some busted openings.

My real point about fate is that I think the player 2 advantage is too much. They get +1 fate to start the game, which is sometimes balanced by passing 2nd... but not always. If player 2 passes first they are up +2 fate turn 1. Either way turn 2 they have an easier time passing first because they buy first, and then they get the first shot at rings with fate on them... Going 2nd is pretty strong.

All of my games take 20-45 min max. I've even had 20 minute games, once you know the rules and understand the cards the game goes quite smoothly.

Sometimes you hit tricky decisions but you can figure it all out well enough to keep on time.

5 minutes ago, shosuko said:

My real point about fate is that I think the player 2 advantage is too much. They get +1 fate to start the game, which is sometimes balanced by passing 2nd... but not always. If player 2 passes first they are up +2 fate turn 1. Either way turn 2 they have an easier time passing first because they buy first, and then they get the first shot at rings with fate on them... Going 2nd is pretty strong

I've noticed this as well, I prefer to go second most of the time. I don't think its too unbalancing, but there are certainly factions and decks that become more dangerous with an 8 start over a 7.

4 minutes ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

All of my games take 30-45 min max. I've even had 20 minute games, once you know the rules and understand the cards the game goes quite smoothly.

Sometimes you hit tricky decisions but you can figure it all out well enough to keep on time.

I've noticed this as well, I prefer to go second most of the time. I don't think its too unbalancing, but there are certainly factions and decks that become more dangerous with an 8 start over a 7.

Well even if player 2 passes 2nd, so fate is balanced turn 1 - turn 2 they have an easier time passing first to gain a fate, AND the first crack at a ring with fate on it. Even if turn 1 balances out, player 2 has a big advantage on turn 2. If there were only 2 conflicts turn 1 player 2 still maintains this fate advantage through the end of the turn.

1 minute ago, shosuko said:

My point about fate is that I think the player 2 advantage is too much. They get +1 fate to start the game, which is sometimes balanced by passing 2nd... but not always. If player 2 passes first they are up +2 fate turn 1. Either way turn 2 they have an easier time passing first because they buy first, and then they get the first shot at rings with fate on them... Going 2nd is pretty strong.

I agree, but, putting more fate on the rings doesn't change that.

The ultimate worst example for someone would be this:

You go 1st. They pass dynasty first. Opponent +2 fate.

If there is fate on each ring they will have the same opportunity to gain extra fate so you will not make up the fate you lost. If anything it makes it worse since one ring will now have 2 fate on it when you opponent starts their first turn. So they not only have the first option to pass dynasty they get first conflict to get that extra fate pushing the advantage for the player that starts the game 2nd even further.

Extra fate across the board is not the answer. I can't say there is one, or if there is a problem until there is more data, but, fate on all the rings would not "fix" anything. Unless you mean to speed up the game by giving one player a massive advantage?

I've been back and forth on the first turn and second turn being stronger, and right now I'm leaning towards a first turn preference. Being the second player has its advantages, especially when it comes to combat. Whoever has second player on any given turn has a lot more control over how combats play out, because you have the last attack. But here's the thing. First turn isn't great for either player in terms of combat. Typically players either have a big champ or 2-3 weenies. Turn 2 is when armies get huge. Having all the control over the second turn's combat matters a ton to me. Maybe it's just my deck or my style of play, but I feel like it's this timing that can make or break a game.

I play games slowly in general. Until I get more familiar with one deck I expect games to take upwards of two hours; and I've been playing with proxies for months.

For now I am resigned to playing relaxed casual games, maybe even with a break in the middle. If you have the time, it's nice not to feel rushed.

4 hours ago, shosuko said:

I believe that the game takes a long time because it is a new game. There are a lot of decisions to make, and until you've defined your typical win goal, and the play patterns that drive you to your win goal a lot of time can be spent floundering. Deciding whether to engage in a conflict, which type, which ring, who to send and leave, which province to attack, which boosts to use, in what order, how you respond to your opponent's plays, and then do it all again in defense... and then again in attack... and then again in defense (I think my experience is that most rounds have 2-3 conflicts)

My games are taking about 1.5-2 hours. Once I refine my play style I expect we'll see that come down to about 1 hour game time.

A few adjustments I think they should make to speed up the game -> 1) starting hand size 5. Drawing just 4 cards makes it hard to be certain you can do anything, adding 1 more card to start the game will let people see more options even without card draw to form their first turn buying decisions. 2) open the game with 1 fate on each ring. I think the 2nd player advantage of gaining an extra fate is very strong, and that the first turn is noticeably more sluggish than any other - and why? This isn't mtg where we're dropping a land and a 1/1 with summoning sickness, or ol5r where we buy holdings, building up a game - this is new5r where every turn is turn 1 or 2 again lol. Crank up that access to fate a bit so that we can get the game going faster!

So the game takes this long because there are many options to consider, and the solution is a bigger hand size and more resources? Wouldn't that equal more options and, therefore, longer games? Something in your analysis and solutions doesn't add up! XD

40 minutes ago, Mon no Oni said:

So the game takes this long because there are many options to consider, and the solution is a bigger and size and more resources? Wouldn't that equal more options and, therefore, longer games? Something in your analysis and solutions doesn't add up! XD

I feel one of the main reasons I don't play faster is that I have no discernible path of progression. I may not have the cards in hand, or characters to feel like I could break a province with even a chump blocker. If I buy 3 characters, I have no fate left for actions. If I save fate for actions, then I am very limited in bodies to attack / defend. If I can only attack once and defend once, which should I work with? MIL or POL? These questions slow down the game for me, because I don't feel I have enough resources (fate + cards) to reasonably form a strategy.

That said - I do feel confident that I will play faster in time, as the meta develops, without any changes to the rules. These are only my gut impressions at this point. As I posted elsewhere in this threat - my main consideration about the fate was about the 2nd player advantage. The player that goes 2nd on first turn has a reasonable advantage. I laid it out above, but in short - they start with 1 free fate, and while this is balanced by 1st player being able to buy / pass first, player 2 can still go for this pass (maybe they have a charge, or display of power, ect) which puts them at +2 fate first turn, 7 v 9. Then in turn 2 they have the first buy / pass, and first go at rings with fate. I feel this gives them an advantage over 1st player.

Thanks for all the great replies! I was hoping to hear that this game should only take 30 minutes to a little over an hour once everyone knows the rules. I now go back to being very excited about FINALLY getting my copy when it is released!

The thing about this game is there is nothing forcing a conclusion. So you and your opponent could play in such a way that you are both not working toward your victory conditions each round. Also the first couple plays of the game you are still learning the rules and strategy so of course it will take longer to plan out your moves and look up rules questions. With practiced play both of these things should become less of an issue. This game favors aggressive play and two players playing aggressively will win in 3 or 4 turns. I think an hour is not an unreasonable expectation for tournament rounds. I think most of my games so far has been something like 40 minutes to a little over an hour.

1 hour ago, shosuko said:

turn

Only played two games so far, both Crab vs. Crane, and each took about 1.5 hours. Didn't play either through to completion, we scooped when it became pretty evident who the winner was. Read the rules beforehand, but man is this game fiddly. Extra fate for second player on setup, extra fate for passing first during dynasty phase, extra fate for Seeker/Keeper role when running rings (on top of the ring effects themselves), duplicate rules for fate, remembering to count Imperial Favor even though the card is right in front of you, add first then double, action windows--it's just a lot. None of it is very hard on its own, and I'm sure a lot of this will become second nature after 10 games, but these first couple games were a grind. Some of the card wording is really nuanced, and doesn't work the way you think it should.

I think mastering this game will be really rewarding, it's just a steep curve. I hope it's not a barrier to too many new players.

Fun fact--there's no action window during a duel. Missed that the first game.

Crab won both games. Hida Kisada is a beast.

Crab games can run long if you don't understand how to play them faster since the Crab player may emphasis defense too much and not move fast enough toward a victory. Crab definitely favors the long game.

I just played my first two games on Tuesday. The first game took about 90 minutes and the second took about 60. Both were dishonor victories (one for and one against me).

I think a lot of the delay, in addition to learning the rules, is from simply not being familiar with the cards yet. In the CCG, I knew my deck well enough that I could just see a card flip up in my province and know what it did and whether I wanted to use it. That'll come in time in the LCG, but for now, I'm still having to read every card (mine and my opponent's) each time I'm trying to make a decision, which slows the game a bit.