Greens are less the issue; its much more an issue with them needing to joust and there just aren't many joust lists being played anymore.
So I feel really dumb asking this....
13 minutes ago, duder said:Dengar/Nym is the problem
And almost everything else.
You want to play your swarm against Dash/Miranda?
I went 3-1 at the Chattanooga store championship losing to the guy who finished 2nd overall... I was flying a 6 TIE swarm (Howlrunner, Mithel, Scourge, 3 Blacks, all with crack)... My main problem was MoV, which has always hurt the swarm... I just missed the cut to top 4, but would have felt really good against any matchup... Even the guy I lost to, it was my last game, and I made one huge flying mistake turning the swarm 90° into the flanking ship (Nym) to the right when I should have done a 2 straight and engaged the ship I had jousted with the previous round (Dengar)...
Of course that list was a Dengar/Nym list, so make of that what you will... But I woukd have felt good against a rematch if I made the top cut...
In the first round of firing he took out Howlrunner with ordnance before I got to fire a single shot which heavily neutered the damage from the other ship, and from there it was what it was...
5 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:And almost everything else.
You want to play your swarm against Dash/Miranda?
Yes, I would... I've flown swarms for a long *** time, there's not a matchup I go in thinking is an autoloss... Dash/Miranda would be close, bu I think that would ultimately come down to real world piloting skill...
7 minutes ago, howieloader said:Yes, I would... I've flown swarms for a long *** time, there's not a matchup I go in thinking is an autoloss... Dash/Miranda would be close, bu I think that would ultimately come down to real world piloting skill...
I played swarms a lot last year and I got to the point where I can beat them to, but we both know that it's a TOUGH match, especially with modern Miranda bringing all those juicy bombs.
There just isn't a good matchup for the TIE Swarm that makes up for the other five rounds where you have to sweat bullets to beat a bunch of 30/70 or 40/60 opponents.
20 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:And almost everything else.
You want to play your swarm against Dash/Miranda?
Gladly. And even Dengar/Nym isn't that bad. If your opponent forces the swarm onto Dengar, you really nerf his ability (don't shoot with the guy he shot at until he takes a revenge shot on someone else, and if he never does, then just don't shoot with that guy). After one round of shooting, 6 standard TIEs should have done 6-7 damage on Dengar. He should pop the next turn in exchange for 2 TIEs at most. If they throw Nym at you, you should be able to kill him in the first round of combat before he can even make use of his bombs. The list is at a severe disadvantage against a swarm, and needs to engage with the optimal position in order to win.
As for any list that has Dash in it, there's been an established play style to defeat him since he came out in W5 - keep working him into the corner until you're ensured the bump, then pummel him with those R1 dice.
In all honesty, the swarm is probably in a pretty good place right now. It even does well against FSR - Rex only affects one of them, and Selflessness can't take more than 1-2 damage away from Biggs. Sure, the obnoxious K4 Security + Expertise means that they can't bump to deny modifiers, but they can still bump to deny actions, which means you're preventing boosting and barrel rolling in order to arc dodge the rest of the swarm.
But the things acting against the swarm are the same two things that always act against them - 1) they're not new, and 2) they take a lot of mental stamina to fly at a tourney (and 3 - the traditional swarm is probably better over the more fun crack swarm right now). They also have to learn how to scatter and fly independently while still focus firing, which most good swarm players aren't particularly well versed in.
One of my list is a mini-swarm: Ventress, 3XZ-95s and Sunny. You would be surprised at how efficient 2 attack dice can become after you land a tractor beam token.
1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:And almost everything else.
You want to play your swarm against Dash/Miranda?
Nope
Its really, really hard to fly thats the main issue.
2die primaries gives you very little room for recovery if your initial pass flopped. The few people that still run it do pretty good with it becuase they have ran it for so long the problems arent very apparent to them.
3 hours ago, BlueMusketeer28 said:But what's wrong with the swarm right now? With 2 ship lists so common, I would think being able to block and focus fire them would be crippling, but nobody seems to mention them. What am I missing?
Well..... the most common ship actually drops a R1-explosion bomb every turn. At PS10.
And you will find it both in Scum and Rebel side
No, not the best time for a swarm list right now
Maybe try a mini swarm. Hits a little harder. ???
(100)
Alpha Squadron Pilot (20) - TIE Interceptor
Autothrusters (2)
Alpha Squadron Pilot (20) - TIE Interceptor
Autothrusters (2)
Alpha Squadron Pilot (20) - TIE Interceptor
Autothrusters (2)
Alpha Squadron Pilot (20) - TIE Interceptor
Autothrusters (2)
Alpha Squadron Pilot (20) - TIE Interceptor
Autothrusters (2)
3 hours ago, Scumwing Apologist said:NYM.
Very little counterplay to him with Genius, Adv. Sensors, and Bomblet Generator. Action before maneuver reveal -> Maneuver -> Drop bomb (even if bumped) -> Take no damage from own bomb -> 1-4 fragile ships take bomb damage (2 red dice each). Infinite bombs, so can do it again, and again, and again! All for under 40 points!
If he flys well, he's going to bomb the heck out of your swarm and it's REALLY tough to stop him when hes got Adv. Sensors.
No, nym dies so fast to lots of dice with little to no defence.
How the **** you are getting a nym to have more then 1 to 2 turns of combat against any kind of swarm is crazy. If you fly well you can kill him before he even gets one bomb off.
Swarm > nym unless the swarm player is bad... But if you are bad it does not matter what you fly.
Nym does well against other 2 ship lists that don't have enough red dice to chew through his hit points fast enough, against 4ship+ list he dies horribly and does nothing.
42 minutes ago, Fuzzywookie said:Maybe try a mini swarm. Hits a little harder. ???
(100)
Alpha Squadron Pilot (20) - TIE Interceptor
Autothrusters (2)Alpha Squadron Pilot (20) - TIE Interceptor
Autothrusters (2)Alpha Squadron Pilot (20) - TIE Interceptor
Autothrusters (2)Alpha Squadron Pilot (20) - TIE Interceptor
Autothrusters (2)Alpha Squadron Pilot (20) - TIE Interceptor
Autothrusters (2)
I did something kind of like this and I was very successful. I somehow didn't lose a single tie. The dice gods were with me that day.. But here was my list.
Alpha Squadron Pilot (18)
Autothrusters (2)
Alpha Squadron Pilot (18)
Autothrusters (2)
Academy Pilot (12)
Academy Pilot (12)
Academy Pilot (12)
Academy Pilot (12)
Academy Pilot (12)
Total: 100
54 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:Its really, really hard to fly thats the main issue.
2die primaries gives you very little room for recovery if your initial pass flopped. The few people that still run it do pretty good with it becuase they have ran it for so long the problems arent very apparent to them.
That's the big thing, I'd guess. You can get stupidly amazing with ship lists you fly a lot in this game, and Nym relies on HP, not green dice, so pushing damage through is very possible. But, alas, the learning curve...
58 minutes ago, Fuzzywookie said:Maybe try a mini swarm. Hits a little harder. ???
(100)
Alpha Squadron Pilot (20) - TIE Interceptor
Autothrusters (2)Alpha Squadron Pilot (20) - TIE Interceptor
Autothrusters (2)Alpha Squadron Pilot (20) - TIE Interceptor
Autothrusters (2)Alpha Squadron Pilot (20) - TIE Interceptor
Autothrusters (2)Alpha Squadron Pilot (20) - TIE Interceptor
Autothrusters (2)
Didn't this win a store champs?
Try it out and let us know!
I think now Nym and Bomblet generator being pretty common it might be bit tough time with swarm. One well played bomb against swarm could do major damage to many of your ships and in case of Bomblet, it wasn't action, so there is still shots coming at your direction, that won't need modification because he is running Accuracy Corrector and he probably did use his action for repositioning so it might be that you won't be shooting at him either because you are arc dependent and he's not.
All though I love swarms. I started with them, but have end up far from it now. Waiting to get my Vaksais out to do miniscule swarm.
4 hours ago, Scumwing Apologist said:NYM.
Very little counterplay to him with Genius, Adv. Sensors, and Bomblet Generator. Action before maneuver reveal -> Maneuver -> Drop bomb (even if bumped) -> Take no damage from own bomb -> 1-4 fragile ships take bomb damage (2 red dice each). Infinite bombs, so can do it again, and again, and again! All for under 40 points!
If he flys well, he's going to bomb the heck out of your swarm and it's REALLY tough to stop him when hes got Adv. Sensors.
Swarm is actually in a favourable matchup against nym, as they can realistically kill him at R3 before he even reaches them. Everything else is the problem.
Swarms struggle against Dash (who is borderline unkillable for them, very hard to block, and hits TIEs like a truck), Miranda (casually one-shotting TIEs with sabine clusters), Dengar (intentional bump followed up by a fully modded 4-dice double tap) and last but not least Rey (hard to kill in arc, one-shotting TIEs at high PS).
Then add serious MOV bleed (as opposed to common 40+pts cost ships that can't even get halved), fickle green dice and exhausting gameplay to the equation.
Edited by ElavionI think the real problem with swarms nowadays is there are just too many mechanics and play styles in the game now and a swarm doesn't match up well against all of it.
This is nothing new, and it's why I've always been opposed to spam lists in any tabletop game I've played. You can't build a house with 100 hammers, you need a variety of tools.
A TIE fighter has strengths and weaknesses. Taking 8 TIEs means you're multiplying their strengths, and also multiplying their weaknesses. The right matchups will be very right, and the wrong ones will be very, very wrong.
Swarm lists are inherently one trick ponies and the game is too diverse to count on one trick carrying you through an entire tournament.
27 minutes ago, Elavion said:Swarm is actually in a favourable matchup against nym, as they can realistically kill him at R3 before he even reaches them. Everything else is the problem.
Swarms struggle against Dash (who is borderline unkillable for them, very hard to block, and hits TIEs like a truck), Miranda (casually one-shotting TIEs with sabine clusters), Dengar (intentional bump followed up by a fully modded 4-dice double tap) and last but not least Rey (hard to kill in arc, one-shotting TIEs at high PS).
Then add serious MOV bleed (as opposed to common 40+pts cost ships that can't even get halved), fickle green dice and exhausting gameplay to the equation.
What Elavion said.
Nym is not all that scary. Dash is a %$#@ and always has been. Dengar with K4 and Expertise is even worse and the projected nerf won't touch that build at all. Rey is tough too.
Large based turrets: Ruining the game since wave 2!
56 minutes ago, Elavion said:Swarm is actually in a favourable matchup against nym, as they can realistically kill him at R3 before he even reaches them. Everything else is the problem.
I just don't understand how, considering Nym has a decent dial for slow rolling, plus he can barrel roll to help his range control. I just don't see how you can R3 kill him with a swarm considering he can range control so well, with perfect knowledge of the game state, and a barrel roll to top it off. He is simply NEVER going to let you blast him with concentrated fire from R3. And when he gets in that sweet spot- ZOOM he barrel rolls, rushes you, bumps you, and hits your whole **** swarm with a bomblet.
2 hours ago, Scumwing Apologist said:I just don't understand how, considering Nym has a decent dial for slow rolling, plus he can barrel roll to help his range control. I just don't see how you can R3 kill him with a swarm considering he can range control so well, with perfect knowledge of the game state, and a barrel roll to top it off. He is simply NEVER going to let you blast him with concentrated fire from R3. And when he gets in that sweet spot- ZOOM he barrel rolls, rushes you, bumps you, and hits your whole **** swarm with a bomblet.
Simple, really.
a) If he's not running engine, it's mathematically impossible for him to get from R4 to R0.
b) even if he is, he's not going to get in the middle of it against an at least decent swarm player, so the bomb will damage two TIEs at best- and now he's at range one of multiple TIE Fighters, which will easily tear him to shreds without even using cracks.
R3 was used to point out he will probably not survive even with the range bonus. Unlike in the case of ordnance, PS10 does not save Nym from crackshots.
The impending release of Harpoon Missiles makes me thing FFG doesn't give a **** about bringing the swarm back.
6 hours ago, Elavion said:Simple, really.
a) If he's not running engine, it's mathematically impossible for him to get from R4 to R0.
b) even if he is, he's not going to get in the middle of it against an at least decent swarm player, so the bomb will damage two TIEs at best- and now he's at range one of multiple TIE Fighters, which will easily tear him to shreds without even using cracks.
R3 was used to point out he will probably not survive even with the range bonus. Unlike in the case of ordnance, PS10 does not save Nym from crackshots.
a) He will have EU
b) He'll also have advanced sensors so after dialing in a 4 straight he'll bank boost and arc dodge the majority of the the swarm
c) That's assuming someone flying a PS 10 adv sensors BR/boost ship is dumb enough to joust you to begin with rather than break your formation on the rocks. Don't want to fly through the rocks you say? Cool, I'll be right over here on the opposite side of the rocks for the next 65 minutes. I'll swing by and pop a single TIE on the last turn of the game.
d) Dengar
1 hour ago, Makaze said:b) He'll also have advanced sensors so after dialing in a 4 straight he'll bank boost and arc dodge the majority of the the swarm
If the TIE swarm is coming in in a 3x2 block, yes. If there's one thing I learned against 'elusive' opponents, it's don't do this .
A lot of really elusive targets that swarms hate (Nym, Miranda Doni, Dash Rendar) aren't actually that hard to kill with even a relatively small amount of sustained fire - splitting up the formation into an arc or dragnet makes it a lot harder to elude incoming shots, especially when you have a big swarm.
Also - advanced sensors is nice, but having advanced sensors, in turn, means no accuracy corrector - which means the autoblaster turret is a lot less deadly and range 1 suddenly becomes a tolerable place to be again, because bomblet + autoblaster turret is unlikely to kill a TIE in one turn.
15 hours ago, howieloader said:In the first round of firing he took out Howlrunner with ordnance before I got to fire a single shot which heavily neutered the damage from the other ship, and from there it was what it was...
which are the three reasons I actually prefer Youngster to Howlrunner:
- You get 8 ships, not 6 (admittedly without Crack Shot, whose awesomeness I understand)
- You have a range 1-3 area of effect allowing you to break formation a lot and still benefit
- You 'lock in' Rage as an action for those ships using it - meaning Youngster eating a heavy laser cannon at PS7 doesn't matter.
5 hours ago, defkhan1 said:The impending release of Harpoon Missiles makes me thing FFG doesn't give a **** about bringing the swarm back.
A swarm flown as a brick around Howlrunner or Serissu, no. But Harpoons are sometimes a double-edged sword against a swarm flown fast and loose - if you don't manage to set it off the turn it lands, then it's a case of "why yes, thank you for the free Dead Man's Switch upgrade. I believe I shall be using this TIE fighter to block your squad...."
16 hours ago, the1hodgy said:Lower Attack power; (2 Attack dice) is really hard to punch through a lot of ships defenses (green and token stacks) ATM
Actually swarms are doing not that bad right now, still they are no friend of all those bombs and have a hard time to catch Dengar / Nym. Ships like those two can just arc dodge a swarm.