Ok, part two of my 'basic' questions...

We played the shilling adventure this evening and one player ran the Grey Wizard. The same question came up with channelling and casting spells that came up when I read combat.

Are both 'unopposed'? Nothing I found in the spellcasting rules stated as such. Magic Darts, for example, is not a melee attack or ranged attack (which receive a standard 1 challenge die), it does have its own difficulty (as do other actions) and we couldn't decide. And, is it an easy action, simple, etc if it should receive a challenge die? Without the challenge die a caster could channel power and cast spells like magic darts (which only adds a challenge die when engaged) all day without incurring a miscast. I'm sure I need to dig further, but anyone know where to find that its confirmed channel and spells receive a challenge die if a roll's required.

The only challenge dice added to the checks are those shown on the card ( Channel Power has a base <P>, Magic dart base is <B>). Notice the cards have difficult increase if engaged in combat.

Another <P> can be added to the spellcheck for magic dart if the PC is quickcasting (channel power and then immediate cast spell). There is no more challenge to add except for GM perogitive.

Note (not that is applies to magic dart), Any spell v. Target Defense add <P>.

I recommend to add a default Challenge die to all spellcasting and blessings, and add a Misfortune die per range level beyond close range.

I guess most Wizard PCs start with 5 Int + spellcasting trained (and maybe even a specialisation in Basic or Rank 1 spells). So, to prevent a starting character from hitting with Magic Dart more than 95% of the times, it is necessary to increase the challenge level. A single additional Challenge die only lowers the chance of success slightly, but it increases the chance of miscasting. In my opinion, if your wizard hits all the time combat encounters get boring very quickly; but if the default chance of success is relatively low the wizard has to increase the chance of success by adding as many Fortune dice as possible (e.g. cast from shadows, near flames or outside; decrease the distance to the target; cast from ambush; cast as part of a well-planned tactic; ...).

This increase in challenge level is balanced by adding an additional challenge die to Melee Attacks and Ranged Attacks .

Thats Why Magic Darts is Petty Magic. Its probably one of the first spells a wizards learns to master.

So you don't automatically add a difficulty die?

I'd go with the 'that's why it's petty magic' rationale, but the fluff (yes, fluff doesn't equal rules, but the game still tries to match fluff with rules for theme) suggests there's always a chance a spellcaster taps incorrectly into the winds of magic and can generate a miscast.

Also, flipping through the spell cards, I'm finding R1 and R2 spells that do not generate a challenge die, so those spells can also be cast without a chance of miscasting.

As to the 'add a challenge die to a X vs. X spell like an attack'...I don't disagree, BUT there's nothing that specifies it in the rules that I can find. I do see that some attack spells add a challenge die, and some mention they're both a 'spell' and a 'melee attack' so I'd see adding one in there.

Here's two other spells that question how you handle a challenge die for miscasts:

Second Portent of Amul, Fair Warning. SPA is a Rank 2 spell, FW is a Rank 1 spell. Fair Warning allows the player to replace their initiative with the number of power points spent, doesn't require a roll, and has no difficulty - so according to the rules the caster could throw this spell all day long without the possibility of a miscast? Second Portent does require a spellcraft roll, but has a difficulty of 3 misfortune dice, so no chance of a miscast there either. Then there's Burning Blood (also Rank 2). It is cast in response to an enemy suffering a critical, but doesn't require a roll so no chance of miscast there either...

This doesn't seem likely.

Of all the casting cards I can go with Channel Power not requiring a miscast die for difficulty (it's simple, so 0d) and you're channellng, not casting and it already has one challenge die built in.

Nothing in the errata to clarify any of this like they did with the attack actions.

If your WP is only 3 there's still a risk if you go reckless and channel at 2 current powers. Also remember that if you want to cast the spell in the same turn as you channel you add a challenge die. Not casting in the same turn you channel is what I would consider careful approach. I guess after all most mages do care about their lives. Magic is dangerous and miscasts should and willoccur but should not happen with every lowly spell. There would be very few wizards casting spells then.

The FAQ states:

Unless indicated otherwise, the default difficulty for other actions, such as casting a spell or invoking a blessing, is Simple (0d). The GM is still the final arbiter of a task’s challenge level, and may adjust these to suit the story and the particular task at hand. An action that is listed as “vs. Target Defence” is not an opposed check – it is based on the Easy (1d) default difficulty, similar to how Melee Attack and Ranged Attack actions are resolved. In addition to this default difficulty, the dice pool may be modified by the target’s Defence rating, as well as by the action’s difficulty modifier.

If I'm not mistaken, (don't have cards right now) Magic Darts is a vs. Target Defence, ability, and therefore if used against an animate target, would suffer the same fate as a ranged attack, and incurr the base difficulty of Easy 1d, then any additional difficulty indicated on the card would be added, just like any other action card. The example giving in the FAQ is Rank 2 Bright Order Action, Great Fires of U'Zhul, Spell Craft (Int) vs. Target Defence, with an added difficulty of [P], and text that reads add one for each enemy in the targets engagement beyond the first. So against a creature with a defence value of 1, then the dice pool would include [PPB], if there were 2 enemies in the engagment being targeted then the difficulty would become [PPBB], every additional enemy would add another .

Magic Dart IS NOT a vs. Target Defence spell.

Well thats what I get for trying to answer a question without my cards handy.

I ran into the same problem yesterday when I ran my first game.

I couldn't find the official rule about spellcasting so I thought casting spells should be an Average (2d) test, but looking back, that may have been a bit harsh.

Next session, I think I'll use this rule I came up with :

Depending on the rank of the spellcaster, the number of added purple dice is :

PlayerRank - SpellRank + 2

Considering a basic spell is rank 0 and that the player starts at Rank 1. So when you start out, basic spells = 1 <P>, rank 1 spells = 2 <P> and so on. You also add the inherent difficulty listed on the action card. Also, I would keep the minimum challenge level at 1 <P> since it's always risky to tap into the winds of magic.

Honestly, does something like Magic Darts need the chance of miss casting.

After all, against a monster of average soak it doesn't do a huge amount of damage.

If I was a mage I would seriously consider never using the spell if there was a chance of miscasting it.

From a fluff point of view - I read the petty spells as being so small time, that there isn't enough power from the Winds being focused to cause a college trained mage any problems. Hedge mages, village witches etc are a another story, and this is what makes them so dangerous to be around.

Compare Magic Dart with Flameblast.

Difficulty: <B> vs. <P>

Base Damage: Int+3 vs. Int+4

Magic Points: 3 vs 6

Consider the Bright Order ability to add +1 dam per +2 Power expended. Magic Dart becomes Int+4 costing 5 power and it's easier to cast...

Fresnel said:

The Bright Order ability only counts for Bright Order Spells , not Magic Dart!

Also, the argument that "... it's easier to cast" is irrelevant because both spells have a succeed ratio of more than 95% for a standard starting Bright Wizard PC (int 5, spellcasting trained).

Munchkin said:

Have you read the Miscast cards??? The consequences of miscasting are extremely mild. Most of them are just "suffer 1 stress and 1 fatigue" or "suffer 1 wound". Miscasting is no serious threat under normal circumstances!!!

Lucas Adorn said:

In game mechanic terms it is not very interesting what a NPC wizard apprentice learns as the first spell. The question is what should the GM add to the dice pool in terms of Challenge and Misfortune dice in order to make spellcasting exciting for the players (and especially for players with spellcasting PCs).

If you take the Sigmar rank 1 blessing Penitent Zeal as an example, it has a difficulty rating of two Misfortune dice, making it impossible to roll any Chaos symbols under default circumstances; however, it still have a result for rolling a Chaos symbol!?! It is clear that Challenge dice should be added to the dice pool by the GM.

I recommend that the GM

1) as a default adds 1 Challenge and 1 Misfortune per range level beyond close range;

2) adds an addtional Challenge per spell rank above the wizard's rank;

3) adds Fortune and Misfortune dice based upon whether the wizard is casting spells in an environment where the relevant wind of magic is present or absent (this is extremely important for spellcasters in the warhammer novels; and I definitely believe that this also should be very important in WFRP because it provides an excellent synenergy between the atmosphere and the spellcaster).

This will probably not do much with the high chance of success, but it will have an impact on the Boon/Bane ratio and the risk of rolling Chaos symbols.

Allavandrel said:

Your first point is debatable. It might be argued the each Order has it's own version of 'Magic Dart' - fueled by their particular wind. The fluff certainly supports this. The card isn't marked 'Bright Order' because FFG would have needed to provide a 'Magic Dart' for each Order but otherwise identical card - but in fact it is indeed a spell of the Order of the casting wizard.

I make the difference 12% to 5% failure risk. The effects of miscast are fairly mild but can take you out of a combat for a few rounds. This different if you Channel and cast in the same round becomes:

27% chance of failure with double miscast risk vs. 18% chance of failure single miscast risk.

So with 'Magic Dart' you can Channel and cast in the same turn for practically the same effect and risk as only casting 'Flamestrike'. So you can cast 'Magic Dart' practically every round.

In fact I was looking at the red side of 'Flameblast', the green side is Int+3, like 'Magic Dart'. So I am left with the conclusion that 'Magic Dart' is the better combat spell. So either 'Magic Dart' is overpowered or 'Flameblast' is underpowered.

Flame blast is 6+Int damage on 3 successes, +1 damage for 1 boon, +1 damage/critical for 2 boons, +1 damage/critical for comet

Magic dart is 3+int damage, ignore armor soak on 2 boons, +1 critical on comet.

Lets look at a good roll with 2 boons, a comet and three successes against a target in full plate and toughness 4. Wizard with 5 intelligence.

Flame blast: 5+6+1+1+1 (2 critical wounds) = 14 (2 criticals), 14-4-5 = 5 damage and 2 criticals.

Magic dart: 5+3 (1 critical) = 8 (1 critical), 8-4 = 4 damage and 1 critical.

But if it's against a less armored opponent flame blast will do even more damage than magic dart. With just one boon flame blast will do more damage. If you rule that petty magic spells get the order bonus then you're just ruling ro make them more powerful which is silly. Petty spells are just that... petty. They get no order bonus, so you can't use extra power to fuel a magic dart. If we look at just one success flame blast will do more damage.

If we took at 2 magic darts vs. 1 flame blast, then 2 magic darts are best against armored targets. But there is no reason why a mage can't channel and use magic dart and then on the next round use channel and then flame blast. Since you start a fight on your equilibrium and it's pretty easy to channel 4 power, there would really be no reason to use magic dart to save power unless the wizard has low willpower.

Last game the wizard in our group had 7 power, decided to channel, got 7 power. With a total power of 14 he cast flame blast. He got a nice roll with top damage except for the comet. But the damage was:

4(int)+6+1+1(crit)+4(power) = 16 damage (because of our critical damage house rule he also did 3 extra wounds damage).

You just can't do that with Magic Dart. If you allow Petty Spells to be order spells, then it's quite frankly your own fault.

The dwarf soldier in the group often does 16 damage, but the downside is that he's in there taking the hits as well, plus his attacks can be blocked, parried and dodged. Flame blast can't be avoided by anything but counterspell. So while magic in warhammer isn't as powerful as some other games... it's perfect. If you just make a wizard with pure offensive spells then it's your own fault. Even with a bright wizard you can get some nice utility.