This is a song for the future but with the release of Kylo's TIE, do you think we will see an SF-VN double pack?

Veteran/Aces packs have been generally been used to fix ships that don't get a lot of play. I think if there is one for the First order it will be some time away as they will probably need to do a lot of data collection to see if TLJ releases get some play. Khiraxz's and Star Vipers have been out for a long time now and are just getting their fix. I do like the idea for packs to be released to expand on current pilots, but with FFG's refusal to release non miniature expansions, maybe Veteran/Aces packs are the only way they will do it.

4 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

Veteran/Aces packs have been generally been used to fix ships that don't get a lot of play. I think if there is one for the First order it will be some time away as they will probably need to do a lot of data collection to see if TLJ releases get some play.

Not to mention none of the current First Order ships really have problem seeing play - they are pretty well balanced, and constitute some of the best pilots in the 'Empire' faction (notably Quickdraw and Omega Leader). So odds of them showing up in an '...Aces' or '...Veterans' pack are... ver y low.

Definitely not for the SF. They're actually in a pretty sweet spot, to be honest. Though, I wouldn't say no to something that gives them a crew slot.

The Silencer isn't even officially announced, so I'll hold off comment on that.

That leaves the Upsilon Shuttle and the TIE/fo. While I am not sure there is anything really expressly needed by the fo, the batshuttle could have an interesting retooling. Give it a new title that takes a crew and possibly a tech slot for some turnaround maneuvers (something like the new Falcon title). This way you could either kit it out as a support ship or a heavy gunship.

10 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Definitely not for the SF. They're actually in a pretty sweet spot, to be honest. Though, I wouldn't say no to something that gives them a crew slot.

The Silencer isn't even officially announced, so I'll hold off comment on that.

That leaves the Upsilon Shuttle and the TIE/fo. While I am not sure there is anything really expressly needed by the fo, the batshuttle could have an interesting retooling. Give it a new title that takes a crew and possibly a tech slot for some turnaround maneuvers (something like the new Falcon title). This way you could either kit it out as a support ship or a heavy gunship.

You can actually make the batplane surprisingly manouvrable - whilst giving up Kylo Ren as a crew card is painful, as a pilot he gives the ship something that the lambda desperately needs to do anything even vaguely resembling 'dogfighting' - access to Elite upgrades like Daredevil and Expert Handling.

Throw in Pattern Analyser (or advanced sensors), Inspiring Recruit, and Engine Upgrade, along with Kylo Ren's Shuttle, and that thing is surprisingly good in a turning match.

But yeah, Omega Leader, Quickdraw and frankly all the Upsilon pilots are good enough not really need 'fixes' any time soon.

7 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

You can actually make the batplane surprisingly manouvrable - whilst giving up Kylo Ren as a crew card is painful, as a pilot he gives the ship something that the lambda desperately needs to do anything even vaguely resembling 'dogfighting' - access to Elite upgrades like Daredevil and Expert Handling.

Throw in Pattern Analyser (or advanced sensors), Inspiring Recruit, and Engine Upgrade, along with Kylo Ren's Shuttle, and that thing is surprisingly good in a turning match.

But yeah, Omega Leader, Quickdraw and frankly all the Upsilon pilots are good enough not really need 'fixes' any time soon.

While that does sound nice, it hasn't been enough. At least not yet. That might change with the next FAQ (if FFG actually tries to restore balance). But until then, I kind of like the idea of the new title better.

I'm not sure there's a need for it in the near future.

the Sf (now LWF is a thing) has seen solid performance as has OL on the tie FO.

unless the silencer has some serious problems I doubt it'll need a veterans pack.

but in FFG's praise (which I give somewhat spareingly) the first order ships have all been pretty solid. The upsilon is a beast to joust, the sf is a solid ace and omega leader is an awesome pocket ace (and the FO's aren't bad for spamming...)

**** (Opposite of heaven which FFG censored) none of them have been too broken (looking at you Kylo pilot) and all are decent contenders. I'm pretty pleased with the FO's showings in X-Wing so far (touch wood :P)

30 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

That leaves the Upsilon Shuttle and the TIE/fo.

I would happily take a 12pt reduction on the Upsilon for -2 attack. Make it an actual support piece.

As for the FO, it's a great ship but the format makes it hard for it to be competitive. It wants to be a swarm style ship but it's hard to fit enough in.

I really feel like a lot of these styles of ships need some kind of Squadron mechanic

1 minute ago, DodgingArcs said:

I would happily take a 12pt reduction on the Upsilon for -2 attack. Make it an actual support piece.

As for the FO, it's a great ship but the format makes it hard for it to be competitive. It wants to be a swarm style ship but it's hard to fit enough in.

I really feel like a lot of these styles of ships need some kind of Squadron mechanic

A robust Squadron mechanic for the game would be great, possibly even the path to bring more thematic lists to higher tiers.

Just now, SabineKey said:

A robust Squadron mechanic for the game would be great, possibly even the path to bring more thematic lists to higher tiers.

The simplest thing is a shared health pool, so 3 ships in a Squadron could share health, other benefits could be based on the actual ships - like a title of sorts I guess. It would a great way to distinguish generic ships.

Attanni is kind of the first squadron card concept, but I think with this idea ships would need to stick together somewhat to gain the benefits.

5 hours ago, Quadjumper King said:

but in FFG's praise (which I give somewhat spareingly) the first order ships have all been pretty solid. The upsilon is a beast to joust, the sf is a solid ace and omega leader is an awesome pocket ace (and the FO's aren't bad for spamming...)

**** (Opposite of heaven which FFG censored) none of them have been too broken (looking at you Kylo pilot) and all are decent contenders. I'm pretty pleased with the FO's showings in X-Wing so far (touch wood :P)

Personally, I think the game's design has finally hit its rhythm, design-wise. . .too bad there are so many ships that were released before it happened

5 hours ago, DodgingArcs said:

I would happily take a 12pt reduction on the Upsilon for -2 attack. Make it an actual support piece.

Like the Lambda that no one uses for anything but a taxi?

5 hours ago, DodgingArcs said:

The simplest thing is a shared health pool, so 3 ships in a Squadron could share health

How does that make any sense at all, from a "real world" stand point?

7 hours ago, xanderf said:

So odds of them showing up in an '...Aces' or '...Veterans' pack are... ver y low.

"Never tell me the odds!" said no one ever.

8 hours ago, DodgingArcs said:

The simplest thing is a shared health pool, so 3 ships in a Squadron could share health, other benefits could be based on the actual ships - like a title of sorts I guess. It would a great way to distinguish generic ships.

Attanni is kind of the first squadron card concept, but I think with this idea ships would need to stick together somewhat to gain the benefits.

I've thought of that, there is also the Mindlink example of shared actions, some sort of "group fire" mechanic, and so on and so forth.

Now, while some squad bonuses should be based on proximity and formation flying, there is room for a wide variety of game affects from a Squadron bonus that I hope it isn't limited to a sub-set of those possibilities.

No.

2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Like the Lambda that no one uses for anything but a taxi?

Lambda doesn't have Coordinate, and those hard red turns make the dial a lot worse.

However, the -12 point cost to take an Upsilon down to 2 attack dice would possibly be too much. 18 points for something with 12 hp... I think it'd be a really strong ship. With Accuracy Corrector, it'd be the same cost as a Lambda, with a better dial, attack results about as good, the Coordinate action, and two more HP. Add also the KRS title and Engine Upgrade, that'd be a strong 27 point ship.

~ ~ ~

Anyhow, I'd love to see a new Tech slot upgrade to help the lesser FO. Something cheap or even negative cost, with an Agility 3 or higher requirement to keep it off the other ships. Whatever they came up with would probably be worse than Comm Relay on Omega Leader, but could help efficiency for swarming. It doesn't need an Aces expansion, though. Not until Episode 9, at least.

SF is probably the most common imp ship right now, it doesnt need any help. The generics are kinda crap but the two pilots are so wicked it doesnt matter.

TIE/FO could see something but i doubt it. About all that ever got used was OL and i havnt seen him since Sabaac took his place as the cheapo third ship.
Though they could do a "TIE Fighter Retraining" box where they release BOTH the regular TIE and TIE/FO in an ace box, introducing swarm-based titles and such

/wish

Red Castle won a season kit with 4 generic Zeta TIE/sf, against all sorts of meta-happy lists.

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

No.

Let's talk again in two years

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Lambda doesn't have Coordinate, and those hard red turns make the dial a lot worse.

However, the -12 point cost to take an Upsilon down to 2 attack dice would possibly be too much. 18 points for something with 12 hp... I think it'd be a really strong ship. With Accuracy Corrector, it'd be the same cost as a Lambda, with a better dial, attack results about as good, the Coordinate action, and two more HP. Add also the KRS title and Engine Upgrade, that'd be a strong 27 point ship.

I guess, IHMO, rather than see the Upsilon get dummed down I would rather:

Get a new shuttle (AND IMPERIAL CREW!!) that fits in between the current options

or

add a title to the Lambda that gives it the Coordinate action.

20 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I guess, IHMO, rather than see the Upsilon get dummed down I would rather:

Get a new shuttle (AND IMPERIAL CREW!!) that fits in between the current options

or

add a title to the Lambda that gives it the Coordinate action.

That's fair, although I don't really want another plain shuttle-shuttle, just in terms of aesthetics. I know the Sentinel, Delta, and Zeta shuttles all must have fans somewhere, but give me a TIE Reaper, just so it looks different. Perhaps lower offense (2 at, 2 ag, 7 h, 2 s statline?), but a stronger dial (Punisher/ARC quality?) and maybe also built-in Boost action (generic point cost between 22 and 25?). That'd probably fit in between the other options. However, this is starting to veer away from First Order discussion...

8 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Like the Lambda that no one uses for anything but a taxi?

How does that make any sense at all, from a "real world" stand point?

The best players use the Lambda for more than that, but yes a cheap co-ordinate carrier is what I was thinking of. I'm not saying it would be balanced, but that I would totally try it.

As for the shared health on the squadron - real world if a laser hits a TIE it dies so the game isn't technically hitting real world.

But thematically I guess the idea is that the strength of the squadron is based on an overall whole, not the individual pieces. They are generic so you might not be shooting the one you thought you were, or they are protecting each other.

Its kind of like Xizor I guess. The squadron is working together.

It's hard to find the balance. On 3 Ties with shared 9 health it seems okay you don't lose 1 until 7 damage is done and then 8 damage and then 9 damage. Overkill will also help the squadron once you get to the kill threshold. A squadron of Bombers though it doesn't really work, so it's really a mechanic that probably needed to be in the game from the beginning for generics. Doing it now you might need to find a different ability for each ship type. And large ships obviously would not be included in squadron rules.

I would also be keen to see a Wingman (not the EPT) style mechanic where you pair a named pilot with a generic of the same class ship for advantages - this is more thematic for X-Wings I think.

Kind of off topic for a First Order Vets pack. It seems a lot more likely that the Punisher would get some love before the First Order does though.

A Punisher Phantom box with new ways of flying the Phantom so it's not Whisper Whisper Whisper.

3 hours ago, DodgingArcs said:

But thematically I guess the idea is that the strength of the squadron is based on an overall whole, not the individual pieces. They are generic so you might not be shooting the one you thought you were, or they are protecting each other.

I'm totally with you on a squadron mechanic, but the above is essentially another version of the much lamented Biggs.

Personally I would work it the other way. . .TIEs have 2 attack, but if they are in the same squadron and close by, they get 3 attack. Yeah, it's power creep, but I think we have to face the music that 2 attack is a "base score" that often needs modification to be useful for jousting.

OTOH, I would still have no problem seeing ships with just 1 attack. . .but they have a support role and the "attack" is more for (pitiful) self-defense.

For a cheap coordinate carrier, the Imps need the TIE Vanguard:

A TIE/ln but with 1 Attack and the Coordinate action.

I can't see the First Order getting a Veterans pack before a Rebel Veterans/Heroes of Scarif pack. Like most have said, they are designed quite well and don't really need a refresh just yet. I have a feeling the TIE Silencer will be a single ship in the movie just like Vader's Adv. that's not to say FFG might design extra pilots as they did with the Adv. but I don't think it'll be sold in a double pack or anything like that.

3 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

I'm totally with you on a squadron mechanic, but the above is essentially another version of the much lamented Biggs.

Personally I would work it the other way. . .TIEs have 2 attack, but if they are in the same squadron and close by, they get 3 attack. Yeah, it's power creep, but I think we have to face the music that 2 attack is a "base score" that often needs modification to be useful for jousting.

OTOH, I would still have no problem seeing ships with just 1 attack. . .but they have a support role and the "attack" is more for (pitiful) self-defense.

For a cheap coordinate carrier, the Imps need the TIE Vanguard:

A TIE/ln but with 1 Attack and the Coordinate action.

I definitely think you could go in a lot of directions with the squadron mechanic based on the ship in question. You wouldn't be making the card without a particular ship type in mind.

As for coordinate. I would like a unique Imperial crew that adds coordinate.

14 hours ago, SabineKey said:

I've thought of that, there is also the Mindlink example of shared actions, some sort of "group fire" mechanic, and so on and so forth.

That's essentially what "Swarm Leader" is - unfortunately what it means in practice is that the ability is tied to one ship which gets shot first.

The actual mechanic is elegant - it's just unfortunate that it only really works on a heavy ship accompanying a swarm, not a swarm-ey ship itself.